2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..

[JETZcorp]

My comment/question still stands.  Is the bombardier design practically maintainable by a single person in their garage, without dependence on the friendly local dealership?  Given the manual and the proper parts (which I'm guessing are fairly cheap compared to, say, a valvetrain) could a reasonably mechanically-literate person repair and/or maintain the machine?  I'm not sure, that's why I said it was a concern of mine, and not an outright blasting of the thing.  I even said, if they are easy to work on and don't require some specialized computer gizmology, I'll certainly be far more supportive of a motocross application.  I'd certainly be willing to buy a sport-bike with this technology if that's the case.

By the way, you're not going to see me defending points and condensers anytime soon.  95% of the bike problems I've seen people have revolve around those two damn components.  I don't get why anyone would be militant to left-side-kick though.  Maybe I should start a thread on that...

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Hello,

I want to answer the post just above Jetz's. First I'm going out for a ride. I'll see you when I get back.

Thanks,

Jim

[ford832]

Everything old and easy for the average guy to understand and tinker with is far better than any modern day technology.The fact that big brother is trying to push technologically advanced though underpowered and inefficient machinery on us these days is all a government conspiracy.Fortunately,I'm immune to their evil agenda as my tinfoil hat blocks their mind control devices and keeps the black helicopters at bay.Now if you'll excuse me I'm going hunting,as soon as I find where I put my clubbing stick and throwing rock.

[TMKIWI]

Hi Jetz.
Yes the engine would still be same.
By that i mean yes you will still be able to take the top end of at home.
The engine wont change it will just have some sensors hanging of it.
It is not as scary as it sounds.
All the sensors used have been around for years now ,so are reliable. Nothing space age.
Weather you can work on the electronics at home will depend on what type of EMM the manufactors release.
On the ETEC's they have 4 LED lights that will flash a code if anything is wrong.The codes are in the owners manual.
All you need to test the sensors is a Ohms meter.
You should not have to tune the bike at all because the computer will take care of different conditions.
We will have to wait and see if/when a bike comes out about having different maps in the EMM.
Hopefully a switch on the bars to change maps would be good.

Unfortunatly there will be some things you will have to go to your friendly dealer about.
Same as all modern vehicles.

[TMKIWI]

Hey Ford can i borrow your clubing stick when you get back.
I have lost mine.
Think the misses used it for lighting the fire.
Shit the cave is cold today.

[ford832]

Anytime tmkiwi.I seem to be having difficulty contacting you however.It would appear the prevailing winds have blown my smoke signals out to sea.If you get a chance,pick up your soup can and string and I'll do the same so we can converse properly and work something out.

[JETZcorp]

That's what I'm worried about, because I fear the friendly local dealer won't want care to offer service for my bike as long as I'd want to keep the bike.  Especially if KTM are the ones who bring us this technology, we know their reputation for customer support on "older" machines.  They desperately want you to throw away your old KTM and buy the new KTM.

So here's the next question.  What sort of things are we depending on the friendly local dealer for, and if the friendly local dealer were to vanish into the ether, would it be possible to get the job done anyway?

[ford832]

That's life Jetz.Many cars these days have a 10 year cut off for dealer part availability.If you can't get it aftermarket,you're sol.Time for a new one.Many things depend on demand.It's hardly economically viable for a manufacturer to retain tooling and manufacturing capability for old machinery when the demand is almost nonexistent.

[TMKIWI]

Hey Jetz.
Nothing will change in that regard.
You still have to go to the friendly dealer now for bits for any bike. Yamaha,KTM,Suzuki or what ever.
You cant make clutch plates at home do you?

Ford i cant find any string.
The bloody missus has used it to light the fire.
Bloody women!!
I need to get out of the cave. Go see if i can find me a stick.

[ford832]

I hear ya.I thought I misplaced my string as well until I noticed the wife appeared to be trying to hide it on me.Considering where she had it,and after giving it much thought,I decided she can just dam well keep it

[Out of Order]

Maintenance, that will be tit. You can still change a top, or bottom end, but the electronics will be like OBD1 or 2 (if the feds have their way). All you need is a scan tool if the check engine light came on. I don't understand way people are scared shitless of all the electronics and wiring. Well then again I was a mechanic working on cars, and I hated how stupid engineers placed their engines and covered them with 10 lbs of damn plastic. <---- This is the reason I don't work on cars as a mechanic, but back to the subject. I'm so used to electronics that I am not afraid of wiring running there and here, and changing an ecu is easier than changing jets. Hell, If you can hack the ecu, all ya need to do is start pushing keys on a keyboard.<----- This isn't for the beginner or novice, you can and will blow the motor up if you don't have a clue what the hell your doing. That's your own risk, so you have been warned! Yes I have seen some ecu's crap out, but it happens, so buy a new one. Also some of the electronics and sensors will shit the bed, but technology has come a long way.

Now weight. Will it weigh more? Sure it will but not by much, this just means you'll just have to find ways to lose the 2 pounds (if that) that were added to the bike. Oh yea, it'll still weigh less than the lead sleds. Like TMKIWI said a few pages back, your taking all the electronics off the the carb bike and then putting the EFI, DI on. Last time I checked spark advance is run by a....... you guessed it a CDI box, which is......... do I have to say it again ELECTRONICS!! Also the 02+ CR250 has a stepper motor to run the power valve, do I have to say what that is? Oh wait a second, KTM's 250GP racer had an injector of some sort (not sure if it was an injector or a solenoid built into the carb) for high rpm and over rev fuelling along with the CDI and stepper motor.

It looks like to me, TMKIWI knows his shit about DI 2 strokes. He has experience in this field as I have experience with EFI and cars. And he is right, so I have to give him credit for putting up with some of you and your dinos . I also have to thank 2smoker for sticking up for the DI 2 stroke. It's the future and should have been years ago, and it's going to happen no matter what anyone thinks. So stock up on carbs and CDI boxes. J/K  

PS. I'm not pissed off at the nay sayers I'm just trying to get the point across. There's always two sides to a story and always will be. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Thanks      

[TMKIWI]

Thank you out of order.
I could not have put it better myself.
Yes it wont take very long to be able to buy a tuner if/when DI's come out.

[ford832]

Yamaha has one now for their 4t's.If I remember correctly it costs about $200.Pretty cheap and quick and easy if you want to  change the map and do some fiddling.A lot quicker than swapping jets.Cripes,you could change a setting,do a couple laps,change it again and so on.Sounds pretty sweet to me.

[Chris2T]

so it looks like we have 3 warring factions here: old school 2 stroke, DI 2 stroke, and something in between. As far as a modern DI 2 stroke compared to an old school one, you can't compare apples (mx bikes) to oranges (snowmobiles), so to get a fair comparison we have to look at snowmobiles. Put the Rotax 800 DI etec against any regular 2 stroke competitor and the only thing it loses in is price and serviceability. It has more horsepower and torque, a better power spread, better mpg, uses less oil, lower emissions, better idling (no plug fouling at extended idle), superior adaptability to changing elevations. And it screams the same sounds as the old school!! Face it, performance-wise THE DI WINS!

BUT.....in motocross price and serviceability are held in extremely high regard (aren't those 2 of the big reasons why we hate 4 strokes?). It's a MAJOR bone of contention with a lot of guys on this board. TMKIWI, i understand that you are a DI tech so could you make an estimated line-by-line comparison of a top end job for both types of engines, including parts and costs?

Anyways, why can't we have a machine that is an evolution of the mx engines that we currently have, but not quite the tech-laden jewel that BRP makes? I spoke with the Envirofit people a while ago. They make a relatively simple system that adapts DI to very low tech 2 stroke scooters in asian countries. Among other things the kit comes with a pump that sprays a mist of oil into the combustion chamber. The guy i spoke with said it actually lubricates better than old school because the oil is no longer diluted by gas. THIS is the kind of "high-tech simplicity" we need in motocross!!

p.s - once again, as a disclaimer, i am ALL FOR the high-tech DI engine on the street

[SachsGS]

Mitch Payton of Pro Circuit is self taught. If a person does not intuitively have an interest and fundamental understanding of the subject all the education in the world will not help him (or her).The only constant in life is change - either you adapt or you get left behind. KTM and BRP are adapting and you and I will have to do so as well.