2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..

[2smoker]

Listen to the first part of the video!!

Ski-Doo Engine Technologies

2 stroke is far from extinction..

[JETZcorp]

Well, if I ever get in the snowmobile market (in Oregon?  HAHAHAHA) then I know what I want to get.

[TMKIWI]

Great engines and great technology.
I have customers with over a 1000hrs on their motors and still going strong.
BRP were thinking about reviving the Can Am's but the crisis has put that idea on hold.
When they finally put one of these on 2 wheels it will be good to see.
At least i hope they licence the technology to someone else.

[JETZcorp]

Can-Am was always the horsepower king.  They put out big numbers and reviewers were always impressed with the motors (which supports my advocacy of the rotary-valve).  I would definitely like to see them come back!

"It spits entire berms and yanks the dyno off the floor..."
~ 1975

"Every time I hear the name "Can-Am," one word lights up inside my brain in six-foot neon letters: Horsepower."
~ Cycle Guide, 1978

"A motorcycle whose calling card simply reads "Horsepower."
~ Cycle Guide, 1980

[MMS]

Thank god the japanese don't control the snowmobile market!

Just shows what can be done with a 2-stroke.

[KTMguy]

It's crazy you could potentially only have to refill the motor oil only once a season. That just shows you how precise those motors are.


I think that the Direct injection is the way to go. The only moving part that was added was the magnetic plunger that injected the fuel, but with no carb, so therefore no carb slider I guess it evens out. It's pretty telling that the 800 DI 2 stroke put out 155 HP, while the 1200 EFI 4 stroke put out 130.

I have a feeling KTM is cooking something up.

[2T Institute]

Can-Am was always the horsepower king.  They put out big numbers and reviewers were always impressed with the motors (which supports my advocacy of the rotary-valve).

Unfortunately to reed valve itself and reed petal technology has caught up and in most cases eclipsed the humble rotary valve. The HP king is Aprilia RSW 125/250 GP road race bikes, they have always been rotary, however the reed valve KTM FRR 250 was soooo close in outright speed. Figures ranged between 120-110RWHP

I would love one (and some snow) but no castor smell is a downside

[SachsGS]

Not only is the 800 2S much more powerful than the 1200 4S but it also gets better fuel economy, 19 mpg vs. 18 mpg. Imagine taking that 155 hp 800cc twin ,slicing off one cylinder, and building a 70 hp 6 speed dual sport! I think things are going to get VERY interesting in the near future.

[Chris2T]

the one feature that will translate well into dirtbikes is the pull-cord, as a kickstart.

I soooo want this technology to appear on streetbikes, but it kinda scares me when thinking of it on a dirtbike. I mean look under the hood of my CBR1000RR and it's swamped with wires, cables, doodads, gizmo's etc etc - totally acceptable on a big streetbike, but i'm not sure if that's what i want on my dirtbike. I mean gasoline-cooled fuel injectors? Oil-fed power valves? A computer that makes 8 million decisions a second? If you think the 4 stroke costs are driving riders out of motocross, wait til they get a load of direct injection. I'd be happy with oil injection at first, and then maybe the low-tech Ficht fuel injection. Little baby steps. But to show up with this incredible piece of technology, it kind of defeats the purpose, no? DON'T GET ME WRONG THOUGH, a 2 stroke of any kind is better than a 4 stroke, let me be clear, i just don;t want to shoot the whole 2 stroke momentum in the foot.
Also, if the rules were changed to allow 2 strokes the same displacement as 4 strokes they could totally overbuild/understress the engine and get good reliability.

[2smoker]

the one feature that will translate well into dirtbikes is the pull-cord, as a kickstart.

I soooo want this technology to appear on streetbikes, but it kinda scares me when thinking of it on a dirtbike. I mean look under the hood of my CBR1000RR and it's swamped with wires, cables, doodads, gizmo's etc etc - totally acceptable on a big streetbike, but i'm not sure if that's what i want on my dirtbike. I mean gasoline-cooled fuel injectors? Oil-fed power valves? A computer that makes 8 million decisions a second? If you think the 4 stroke costs are driving riders out of motocross, wait til they get a load of direct injection. I'd be happy with oil injection at first, and then maybe the low-tech Ficht fuel injection. Little baby steps. But to show up with this incredible piece of technology, it kind of defeats the purpose, no? DON'T GET ME WRONG THOUGH, a 2 stroke of any kind is better than a 4 stroke, let me be clear, i just don;t want to shoot the whole 2 stroke momentum in the foot.
Also, if the rules were changed to allow 2 strokes the same displacement as 4 strokes they could totally overbuild/understress the engine and get good reliability.

Sorry Chris.. But I am so ready to get a DFI 2 stroke motocross! I will buy 2! It benefits on every sides. The rider, the market and the planet. So what is wrong? You guys are not prepared mentaly to give up the carbs and premix?? lol Try to imagine the new DFI YZ on the cover of MXA!

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Hey Guys,

I'm sure this is a very efficient engine.

If the only things that make you excited about owning and riding a 2 stroke conveyance are:

1. The fact that it combusts on each downstroke of the piston, and that *every single revolution of the crank has a power stroke. *(Single Cylinder)

2. It burns fuel.

:then maybe this is exciting for you.

Personally, a couple matches on dry technical parameters are not enough for me.

I feel that engines like this are an almost complete departure from everything that makes people passionate about their 2 strokes, and vigilant enough to fight to preserve the right to own and ride them, and to have access to them in the future along with the alternatives. This thing hardly even resembles a 2 stroke.

A while ago, in another thread about Direct Injection, someone posted about a 600cc Direct Injection sled and pointed the way to some videos of it on YouTube.

Well, that thing sounded like an electric toothbrush inside a toaster oven, crossed with a hopped up pool filter. Am I supposed to get excited about that instead of the wail of my YZ's? I can't see that happening.

The video showed the Direct injection sled running with another sled, either conventional 2 stroke or 4 stroke. The two appeared to have very similar performance, with neither one really looking superior. Tell you the truth I don't remember if the other sled was 2 or 4 stroke, because I was too put off by the neutered DI 2 stroke that was supposed to be the star of the video.

How about the power? The DI numbers are impressive, but isn't it just as much about the way the engine serves it up? It is for me... If just any horsepower would do, why care as much as we do about 2 stroke as an alternative to 4 stroke? Why not just "Get it straight with Honda!" ....And don't start with some crap about "You can program the power curve! It can be either a mop bucket for when grandma rides, or they also have the Rick Johnson CR500 module at the dealer... You just plug it in and... WHAM-O! Exciting power!..." Atari Cartridge power bands are phone sex. A big part of the fun and excitement of riding a 2 stroke has always been the unique topography of the power curve, and the fact that a skilled rider learns his engine and knows how to work with it... Without some electronic mediating committee in the pipeline between you and your vehicle to negotiate rider input and engine response. Fuck that.

Then there's the new cylinder head... WOW! you mean now WE 2 stroke guys would get to have engines with a 10 or 11 inch tall, 6 layer wedding cake of a cylinder sticking up above our cases? Sounds like "AMA MowerCross" the 2 stroke version. Whoa!.. What's next? Will they tilt the weddng cake back 4 degrees, off center to the crankshaft, and put the fuel boiling tank under the seat? And the airbox in the space where the old fuel boiling tank was?  Only one thing's missing... "Unicam Technology" Well... No thanks, I think what I've got right now is better, and simpler, and more reliable.

What about the EPA and all that crap? Hmmmm.... While it might be nice to be able to go into a dealer and get a new dualsport bike with one of these Eunuch 2 stoke engines in it, I could never really say it would be exciting... What IS exciting to me with regard to the EPA vs 2 Stroke conflict in the USA is the fact that there are so many loopholes allowing us to get REAL 2 STROKES only a handfull of years old if we want them. Gas Gas EC's, KTM200EXC-GS's from England and Singapore, Suzuki RMX250ST's and HondaCRM250's of 3 different types from Japan's domestic market, just to name a few. Actually, it works with ANY KTM of any age because of the way the papers are written, The 200EXC-GS just caters to my preference for volumetric oil injection.

Maybe there are 3 types of engine. The 2 Stroke, the 4 Stroke, and the Eunuch 2 Stroke.

No castor smell... No Crank Case Scavenging... Difficult to recognize with your eyes. Difficult to recognize with your ears... Difficult to recognize with your throttle hand...

We had excellent, vibrant, reliable bikes for a long time and then along came some manufacturers, some stupid motorcycles, and a media blitz and now we find ourselves awash in a sea of crappy, complicated, perfectly boring motorcycles... Now, here comes another wave...

If we want to be able to enjoy riding 2 stroke motocycles, it might be time to stop letting people sell us one stupid idea after another.

Thanks,

Jim  

    

[DangisMX]

Wow this is very interesting. I've heard about this engine before and always wondered how they solved the lubrication problem.

I agree that it just wouldn't make sense in a motocross bike. In a motocross bike I want simplicity, that's why I like two stroke bikes. However for two strokes to have any future, they must be on the road, they must bring profits to the manufacturer. To be on the road and able to compete with four strokes, you need injection. I believe that systems such as this is the only way we are going to have two stroke motorcycles on the roads. No one makes cars with carburetors any more, whether we like it or not, injection is the only way. It doesn't have to be so in motocross however. Here we are not to worried about pollution and fuel economy and convenience and all that (pollution is bad, but I think even if we add up all the motocross bikes in the world they would only make a tiny portion of the bigger picture).

In my opinion this is the only possible future for two stroke road motorcycles, but not necessarily for motocross bikes.

 

[Chris2T]

ok, at the risk of back-pedaling, i need to make my opinion clear: a direct-injected 2 stroke is 1000% better than no 2 stroke at all. And like it or not, 2 strokes have a reputation as "gross polluters" and there's a wave of public sentiment throughout the world that wants to see them gone. And guess what? a resurgence of old school 2 stroke's could actually bring a faster end to them than we are already seeing. As i mentioned before, at the very least an oil metering system should be implemented, just to buy us more time. perhaps a low-tech fuel injection system feeding into the crankcase. ANYTHING that shows the engines are advancing from the 60's where most of the technology is rooted in. If i could have my way there would be no power valve, and the damn things would be piston ported, THAT'S how simple i like my 2 strokes. But we're in the 21st century now and there's twice as many people on this earth as there were in the early 70's, and people are serious about cutting pollution, and i'd rather see 2 stroke technology bend a little then disappear. But again, the above Ski-doo engine with all it's technological glitter probably doesn't have a place on a motocross machine

[2smoker]

Hey Guys,

I'm sure this is a very efficient engine.

If the only things that make you excited about owning and riding a 2 stroke conveyance are:

1. The fact that it combusts on each downstroke of the piston, and that *every single revolution of the crank has a power stroke. *(Single Cylinder)

2. It burns fuel.

:then maybe this is exciting for you.

Personally, a couple matches on dry technical parameters are not enough for me.

I feel that engines like this are an almost complete departure from everything that makes people passionate about their 2 strokes, and vigilant enough to fight to preserve the right to own and ride them, and to have access to them in the future along with the alternatives. This thing hardly even resembles a 2 stroke.

A while ago, in another thread about Direct Injection, someone posted about a 600cc Direct Injection sled and pointed the way to some videos of it on YouTube.

Well, that thing sounded like an electric toothbrush inside a toaster oven, crossed with a hopped up pool filter. Am I supposed to get excited about that instead of the wail of my YZ's? I can't see that happening.

The video showed the Direct injection sled running with another sled, either conventional 2 stroke or 4 stroke. The two appeared to have very similar performance, with neither one really looking superior. Tell you the truth I don't remember if the other sled was 2 or 4 stroke, because I was too put off by the neutered DI 2 stroke that was supposed to be the star of the video.

How about the power? The DI numbers are impressive, but isn't it just as much about the way the engine serves it up? It is for me... If just any horsepower would do, why care as much as we do about 2 stroke as an alternative to 4 stroke? Why not just "Get it straight with Honda!" ....And don't start with some crap about "You can program the power curve! It can be either a mop bucket for when grandma rides, or they also have the Rick Johnson CR500 module at the dealer... You just plug it in and... WHAM-O! Exciting power!..." Atari Cartridge power bands are phone sex. A big part of the fun and excitement of riding a 2 stroke has always been the unique topography of the power curve, and the fact that a skilled rider learns his engine and knows how to work with it... Without some electronic mediating committee in the pipeline between you and your vehicle to negotiate rider input and engine response. Fuck that.

Then there's the new cylinder head... WOW! you mean now WE 2 stroke guys would get to have engines with a 10 or 11 inch tall, 6 layer wedding cake of a cylinder sticking up above our cases? Sounds like "AMA MowerCross" the 2 stroke version. Whoa!.. What's next? Will they tilt the weddng cake back 4 degrees, off center to the crankshaft, and put the fuel boiling tank under the seat? And the airbox in the space where the old fuel boiling tank was?  Only one thing's missing... "Unicam Technology" Well... No thanks, I think what I've got right now is better, and simpler, and more reliable.

What about the EPA and all that crap? Hmmmm.... While it might be nice to be able to go into a dealer and get a new dualsport bike with one of these Eunuch 2 stoke engines in it, I could never really say it would be exciting... What IS exciting to me with regard to the EPA vs 2 Stroke conflict in the USA is the fact that there are so many loopholes allowing us to get REAL 2 STROKES only a handfull of years old if we want them. Gas Gas EC's, KTM200EXC-GS's from England and Singapore, Suzuki RMX250ST's and HondaCRM250's of 3 different types from Japan's domestic market, just to name a few. Actually, it works with ANY KTM of any age because of the way the papers are written, The 200EXC-GS just caters to my preference for volumetric oil injection.

Maybe there are 3 types of engine. The 2 Stroke, the 4 Stroke, and the Eunuch 2 Stroke.

No castor smell... No Crank Case Scavenging... Difficult to recognize with your eyes. Difficult to recognize with your ears... Difficult to recognize with your throttle hand...

We had excellent, vibrant, reliable bikes for a long time and then along came some manufacturers, some stupid motorcycles, and a media blitz and now we find ourselves awash in a sea of crappy, complicated, perfectly boring motorcycles... Now, here comes another wave...

If we want to be able to enjoy riding 2 stroke motocycles, it might be time to stop letting people sell us one stupid idea after another.

Thanks,

Jim  

    

Bombardier is making a huge efforts to keep the 2 stroke alive and you guys are still not happy? I don't get it. You guys should stop thinking old school . Never heard of EPA rules??? We are in 2010. That DFI engine is an example for the industry and show the Japs that a cleaner 2 stroke can be done. This thing start on the first kick, still have a crazy 2 stroke powerband, almost no smoke and still remains friggin light. Open your minds!!!

[2smoker]

ok, at the risk of back-pedaling, i need to make my opinion clear: a direct-injected 2 stroke is 1000% better than no 2 stroke at all. And like it or not, 2 strokes have a reputation as "gross polluters" and there's a wave of public sentiment throughout the world that wants to see them gone. And guess what? a resurgence of old school 2 stroke's could actually bring a faster end to them than we are already seeing. As i mentioned before, at the very least an oil metering system should be implemented, just to buy us more time. perhaps a low-tech fuel injection system feeding into the crankcase. ANYTHING that shows the engines are advancing from the 60's where most of the technology is rooted in. If i could have my way there would be no power valve, and the damn things would be piston ported, THAT'S how simple i like my 2 strokes. But we're in the 21st century now and there's twice as many people on this earth as there were in the early 70's, and people are serious about cutting pollution, and i'd rather see 2 stroke technology bend a little then disappear. But again, the above Ski-doo engine with all it's technological glitter probably doesn't have a place on a motocross machine

Why you guys are so afraid of the new stuff?? I totally like it! They made it possible with the 4 junk..why not with the  2dope???