Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: 2smoker on April 28, 2010, 09:16:55 PM
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Listen to the first part of the video!! ;D
Ski-Doo Engine Technologies (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_WQW1yoSkU#ws)
2 stroke is far from extinction..
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Well, if I ever get in the snowmobile market (in Oregon? HAHAHAHA) then I know what I want to get.
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Great engines and great technology.
I have customers with over a 1000hrs on their motors and still going strong.
BRP were thinking about reviving the Can Am's but the crisis has put that idea on hold.
When they finally put one of these on 2 wheels it will be good to see.
At least i hope they licence the technology to someone else.
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Can-Am was always the horsepower king. They put out big numbers and reviewers were always impressed with the motors (which supports my advocacy of the rotary-valve). I would definitely like to see them come back!
"It spits entire berms and yanks the dyno off the floor..."
~ 1975
"Every time I hear the name "Can-Am," one word lights up inside my brain in six-foot neon letters: Horsepower."
~ Cycle Guide, 1978
"A motorcycle whose calling card simply reads "Horsepower."
~ Cycle Guide, 1980
(http://motorbikearchives.com/images/stories/bike%20tests/1980%20Can-Am%20MX-6/1980-Can-Am-MX-6-P2.jpg)
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Thank god the japanese don't control the snowmobile market!
Just shows what can be done with a 2-stroke.
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It's crazy you could potentially only have to refill the motor oil only once a season. That just shows you how precise those motors are.
I think that the Direct injection is the way to go. The only moving part that was added was the magnetic plunger that injected the fuel, but with no carb, so therefore no carb slider I guess it evens out. It's pretty telling that the 800 DI 2 stroke put out 155 HP, while the 1200 EFI 4 stroke put out 130.
I have a feeling KTM is cooking something up.
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Can-Am was always the horsepower king. They put out big numbers and reviewers were always impressed with the motors (which supports my advocacy of the rotary-valve).
Unfortunately to reed valve itself and reed petal technology has caught up and in most cases eclipsed the humble rotary valve. The HP king is Aprilia RSW 125/250 GP road race bikes, they have always been rotary, however the reed valve KTM FRR 250 was soooo close in outright speed. Figures ranged between 120-110RWHP
I would love one (and some snow) but no castor smell is a downside :(
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Not only is the 800 2S much more powerful than the 1200 4S but it also gets better fuel economy, 19 mpg vs. 18 mpg. Imagine taking that 155 hp 800cc twin ,slicing off one cylinder, and building a 70 hp 6 speed dual sport! I think things are going to get VERY interesting in the near future.
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the one feature that will translate well into dirtbikes is the pull-cord, as a kickstart.
I soooo want this technology to appear on streetbikes, but it kinda scares me when thinking of it on a dirtbike. I mean look under the hood of my CBR1000RR and it's swamped with wires, cables, doodads, gizmo's etc etc - totally acceptable on a big streetbike, but i'm not sure if that's what i want on my dirtbike. I mean gasoline-cooled fuel injectors? Oil-fed power valves? A computer that makes 8 million decisions a second? If you think the 4 stroke costs are driving riders out of motocross, wait til they get a load of direct injection. I'd be happy with oil injection at first, and then maybe the low-tech Ficht fuel injection. Little baby steps. But to show up with this incredible piece of technology, it kind of defeats the purpose, no? DON'T GET ME WRONG THOUGH, a 2 stroke of any kind is better than a 4 stroke, let me be clear, i just don;t want to shoot the whole 2 stroke momentum in the foot.
Also, if the rules were changed to allow 2 strokes the same displacement as 4 strokes they could totally overbuild/understress the engine and get good reliability.
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the one feature that will translate well into dirtbikes is the pull-cord, as a kickstart.
I soooo want this technology to appear on streetbikes, but it kinda scares me when thinking of it on a dirtbike. I mean look under the hood of my CBR1000RR and it's swamped with wires, cables, doodads, gizmo's etc etc - totally acceptable on a big streetbike, but i'm not sure if that's what i want on my dirtbike. I mean gasoline-cooled fuel injectors? Oil-fed power valves? A computer that makes 8 million decisions a second? If you think the 4 stroke costs are driving riders out of motocross, wait til they get a load of direct injection. I'd be happy with oil injection at first, and then maybe the low-tech Ficht fuel injection. Little baby steps. But to show up with this incredible piece of technology, it kind of defeats the purpose, no? DON'T GET ME WRONG THOUGH, a 2 stroke of any kind is better than a 4 stroke, let me be clear, i just don;t want to shoot the whole 2 stroke momentum in the foot.
Also, if the rules were changed to allow 2 strokes the same displacement as 4 strokes they could totally overbuild/understress the engine and get good reliability.
Sorry Chris.. But I am so ready to get a DFI 2 stroke motocross! I will buy 2! It benefits on every sides. The rider, the market and the planet. So what is wrong? You guys are not prepared mentaly to give up the carbs and premix?? lol Try to imagine the new DFI YZ on the cover of MXA! :o
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Hey Guys,
I'm sure this is a very efficient engine.
If the only things that make you excited about owning and riding a 2 stroke conveyance are:
1. The fact that it combusts on each downstroke of the piston, and that *every single revolution of the crank has a power stroke. *(Single Cylinder)
2. It burns fuel.
:then maybe this is exciting for you.
Personally, a couple matches on dry technical parameters are not enough for me.
I feel that engines like this are an almost complete departure from everything that makes people passionate about their 2 strokes, and vigilant enough to fight to preserve the right to own and ride them, and to have access to them in the future along with the alternatives. This thing hardly even resembles a 2 stroke.
A while ago, in another thread about Direct Injection, someone posted about a 600cc Direct Injection sled and pointed the way to some videos of it on YouTube.
Well, that thing sounded like an electric toothbrush inside a toaster oven, crossed with a hopped up pool filter. Am I supposed to get excited about that instead of the wail of my YZ's? I can't see that happening.
The video showed the Direct injection sled running with another sled, either conventional 2 stroke or 4 stroke. The two appeared to have very similar performance, with neither one really looking superior. Tell you the truth I don't remember if the other sled was 2 or 4 stroke, because I was too put off by the neutered DI 2 stroke that was supposed to be the star of the video.
How about the power? The DI numbers are impressive, but isn't it just as much about the way the engine serves it up? It is for me... If just any horsepower would do, why care as much as we do about 2 stroke as an alternative to 4 stroke? Why not just "Get it straight with Honda!" ....And don't start with some crap about "You can program the power curve! It can be either a mop bucket for when grandma rides, or they also have the Rick Johnson CR500 module at the dealer... You just plug it in and... WHAM-O! Exciting power!..." Atari Cartridge power bands are phone sex. A big part of the fun and excitement of riding a 2 stroke has always been the unique topography of the power curve, and the fact that a skilled rider learns his engine and knows how to work with it... Without some electronic mediating committee in the pipeline between you and your vehicle to negotiate rider input and engine response. Fuck that.
Then there's the new cylinder head... WOW! you mean now WE 2 stroke guys would get to have engines with a 10 or 11 inch tall, 6 layer wedding cake of a cylinder sticking up above our cases? Sounds like "AMA MowerCross" the 2 stroke version. Whoa!.. What's next? Will they tilt the weddng cake back 4 degrees, off center to the crankshaft, and put the fuel boiling tank under the seat? And the airbox in the space where the old fuel boiling tank was? Only one thing's missing... "Unicam Technology";) Well... No thanks, I think what I've got right now is better, and simpler, and more reliable.
What about the EPA and all that crap? Hmmmm.... While it might be nice to be able to go into a dealer and get a new dualsport bike with one of these Eunuch 2 stoke engines in it, I could never really say it would be exciting... What IS exciting to me with regard to the EPA vs 2 Stroke conflict in the USA is the fact that there are so many loopholes allowing us to get REAL 2 STROKES only a handfull of years old if we want them. Gas Gas EC's, KTM200EXC-GS's from England and Singapore, Suzuki RMX250ST's and HondaCRM250's of 3 different types from Japan's domestic market, just to name a few. Actually, it works with ANY KTM of any age because of the way the papers are written, The 200EXC-GS just caters to my preference for volumetric oil injection.
Maybe there are 3 types of engine. The 2 Stroke, the 4 Stroke, and the Eunuch 2 Stroke.
No castor smell... No Crank Case Scavenging... Difficult to recognize with your eyes. Difficult to recognize with your ears... Difficult to recognize with your throttle hand...
We had excellent, vibrant, reliable bikes for a long time and then along came some manufacturers, some stupid motorcycles, and a media blitz and now we find ourselves awash in a sea of crappy, complicated, perfectly boring motorcycles... Now, here comes another wave...
If we want to be able to enjoy riding 2 stroke motocycles, it might be time to stop letting people sell us one stupid idea after another.
Thanks,
Jim
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Wow this is very interesting. I've heard about this engine before and always wondered how they solved the lubrication problem.
I agree that it just wouldn't make sense in a motocross bike. In a motocross bike I want simplicity, that's why I like two stroke bikes. However for two strokes to have any future, they must be on the road, they must bring profits to the manufacturer. To be on the road and able to compete with four strokes, you need injection. I believe that systems such as this is the only way we are going to have two stroke motorcycles on the roads. No one makes cars with carburetors any more, whether we like it or not, injection is the only way. It doesn't have to be so in motocross however. Here we are not to worried about pollution and fuel economy and convenience and all that (pollution is bad, but I think even if we add up all the motocross bikes in the world they would only make a tiny portion of the bigger picture).
In my opinion this is the only possible future for two stroke road motorcycles, but not necessarily for motocross bikes.
;D
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ok, at the risk of back-pedaling, i need to make my opinion clear: a direct-injected 2 stroke is 1000% better than no 2 stroke at all. And like it or not, 2 strokes have a reputation as "gross polluters" and there's a wave of public sentiment throughout the world that wants to see them gone. And guess what? a resurgence of old school 2 stroke's could actually bring a faster end to them than we are already seeing. As i mentioned before, at the very least an oil metering system should be implemented, just to buy us more time. perhaps a low-tech fuel injection system feeding into the crankcase. ANYTHING that shows the engines are advancing from the 60's where most of the technology is rooted in. If i could have my way there would be no power valve, and the damn things would be piston ported, THAT'S how simple i like my 2 strokes. But we're in the 21st century now and there's twice as many people on this earth as there were in the early 70's, and people are serious about cutting pollution, and i'd rather see 2 stroke technology bend a little then disappear. But again, the above Ski-doo engine with all it's technological glitter probably doesn't have a place on a motocross machine
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Hey Guys,
I'm sure this is a very efficient engine.
If the only things that make you excited about owning and riding a 2 stroke conveyance are:
1. The fact that it combusts on each downstroke of the piston, and that *every single revolution of the crank has a power stroke. *(Single Cylinder)
2. It burns fuel.
:then maybe this is exciting for you.
Personally, a couple matches on dry technical parameters are not enough for me.
I feel that engines like this are an almost complete departure from everything that makes people passionate about their 2 strokes, and vigilant enough to fight to preserve the right to own and ride them, and to have access to them in the future along with the alternatives. This thing hardly even resembles a 2 stroke.
A while ago, in another thread about Direct Injection, someone posted about a 600cc Direct Injection sled and pointed the way to some videos of it on YouTube.
Well, that thing sounded like an electric toothbrush inside a toaster oven, crossed with a hopped up pool filter. Am I supposed to get excited about that instead of the wail of my YZ's? I can't see that happening.
The video showed the Direct injection sled running with another sled, either conventional 2 stroke or 4 stroke. The two appeared to have very similar performance, with neither one really looking superior. Tell you the truth I don't remember if the other sled was 2 or 4 stroke, because I was too put off by the neutered DI 2 stroke that was supposed to be the star of the video.
How about the power? The DI numbers are impressive, but isn't it just as much about the way the engine serves it up? It is for me... If just any horsepower would do, why care as much as we do about 2 stroke as an alternative to 4 stroke? Why not just "Get it straight with Honda!" ....And don't start with some crap about "You can program the power curve! It can be either a mop bucket for when grandma rides, or they also have the Rick Johnson CR500 module at the dealer... You just plug it in and... WHAM-O! Exciting power!..." Atari Cartridge power bands are phone sex. A big part of the fun and excitement of riding a 2 stroke has always been the unique topography of the power curve, and the fact that a skilled rider learns his engine and knows how to work with it... Without some electronic mediating committee in the pipeline between you and your vehicle to negotiate rider input and engine response. Fuck that.
Then there's the new cylinder head... WOW! you mean now WE 2 stroke guys would get to have engines with a 10 or 11 inch tall, 6 layer wedding cake of a cylinder sticking up above our cases? Sounds like "AMA MowerCross" the 2 stroke version. Whoa!.. What's next? Will they tilt the weddng cake back 4 degrees, off center to the crankshaft, and put the fuel boiling tank under the seat? And the airbox in the space where the old fuel boiling tank was? Only one thing's missing... "Unicam Technology";) Well... No thanks, I think what I've got right now is better, and simpler, and more reliable.
What about the EPA and all that crap? Hmmmm.... While it might be nice to be able to go into a dealer and get a new dualsport bike with one of these Eunuch 2 stoke engines in it, I could never really say it would be exciting... What IS exciting to me with regard to the EPA vs 2 Stroke conflict in the USA is the fact that there are so many loopholes allowing us to get REAL 2 STROKES only a handfull of years old if we want them. Gas Gas EC's, KTM200EXC-GS's from England and Singapore, Suzuki RMX250ST's and HondaCRM250's of 3 different types from Japan's domestic market, just to name a few. Actually, it works with ANY KTM of any age because of the way the papers are written, The 200EXC-GS just caters to my preference for volumetric oil injection.
Maybe there are 3 types of engine. The 2 Stroke, the 4 Stroke, and the Eunuch 2 Stroke.
No castor smell... No Crank Case Scavenging... Difficult to recognize with your eyes. Difficult to recognize with your ears... Difficult to recognize with your throttle hand...
We had excellent, vibrant, reliable bikes for a long time and then along came some manufacturers, some stupid motorcycles, and a media blitz and now we find ourselves awash in a sea of crappy, complicated, perfectly boring motorcycles... Now, here comes another wave...
If we want to be able to enjoy riding 2 stroke motocycles, it might be time to stop letting people sell us one stupid idea after another.
Thanks,
Jim
Bombardier is making a huge efforts to keep the 2 stroke alive and you guys are still not happy? I don't get it. You guys should stop thinking old school . Never heard of EPA rules??? We are in 2010. That DFI engine is an example for the industry and show the Japs that a cleaner 2 stroke can be done. This thing start on the first kick, still have a crazy 2 stroke powerband, almost no smoke and still remains friggin light. Open your minds!!! :o
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ok, at the risk of back-pedaling, i need to make my opinion clear: a direct-injected 2 stroke is 1000% better than no 2 stroke at all. And like it or not, 2 strokes have a reputation as "gross polluters" and there's a wave of public sentiment throughout the world that wants to see them gone. And guess what? a resurgence of old school 2 stroke's could actually bring a faster end to them than we are already seeing. As i mentioned before, at the very least an oil metering system should be implemented, just to buy us more time. perhaps a low-tech fuel injection system feeding into the crankcase. ANYTHING that shows the engines are advancing from the 60's where most of the technology is rooted in. If i could have my way there would be no power valve, and the damn things would be piston ported, THAT'S how simple i like my 2 strokes. But we're in the 21st century now and there's twice as many people on this earth as there were in the early 70's, and people are serious about cutting pollution, and i'd rather see 2 stroke technology bend a little then disappear. But again, the above Ski-doo engine with all it's technological glitter probably doesn't have a place on a motocross machine
Why you guys are so afraid of the new stuff?? I totally like it! They made it possible with the 4 junk..why not with the 2dope???
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The Lotus Tri-Fuel ( Omnivore engine) suppose to enter production in 2011.. a reliable 2 stroke engine on the road!! ;D
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2smoker, this new Etec is truly the answer to all my dreams, it really is. I've been waiting since the mid 70's for an engine like this, for the street. I'm just saying that for the dirt it seems a bit much. But what do i know. Regardless, if it shows up on a dirtbike i'll be one of the very first on line at my dealer ;-)
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2smoker, this new Etec is truly the answer to all my dreams, it really is. I've been waiting since the mid 70's for an engine like this, for the street. I'm just saying that for the dirt it seems a bit much. But what do i know. Regardless, if it shows up on a dirtbike i'll be one of the very first on line at my dealer ;-)
I'll be with you brother..!! BTW I ride the street also.. I sold my last sportbike last year.. 06 Kawasaki ZX-10r.. I almost bought the new Beemer.. I dream about a 2dope on the street! It will be so light and fun to ride but nowadays customers want a fast easy bike to ride with a predictable powerband :(
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Have you guys checked out the Two Stroke Shop?? Some awesome machines from those guys, street two-strokes.. it's worth a visit to their site.
http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ (http://www.twostrokeshop.com/)
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Any news when this baby will hit the showroom floors? Just an example that a fuel injected two stroke can remains small and compact...
http://www.ossamotorcycles.com.au/TR280i.htm (http://www.ossamotorcycles.com.au/TR280i.htm)
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Have you guys checked out the Two Stroke Shop?? Some awesome machines from those guys, street two-strokes.. it's worth a visit to their site.
http://www.twostrokeshop.com/ (http://www.twostrokeshop.com/)
Yep, The never finished their ZX-10r Ninja project with that 1100 cc two stroke engine in it :(
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Would I go back to a carb on my road going vehicles? Not a chance, FI has been bullet proof on my MB's,Fords ,Volkswagens etc. and I would welcome DI on a dirtbike in a heartbeat.That monotone sound of the DI sleds is just a very efficient 2S with a broad powerband. To actually ride them is another matter - I think most people would be very impressed.
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I have been working on DI engines for the past 10 years.
First with Ficht, Optimax and now ETEC.
Every time the subject comes up people complain itâ??s too complicated.
Here is my story:
Between 2001 & 2006 we were selling 4 strokes, DI 2 Strokes & Carb 2 strokes.
When BRP told us that the carburetor 2 strokes were no longer to be made I was a bit nervous.
Reason? Because carb motors were cheap, reliable and popular.
I was concerned people would be nervous to convert to new technology.
So come 06 all we had was the new DI (ETEC). They were released in 04.
4 years on no one is talking about carb 2 strokes.
People WANT the new technology.
All this was brought on by the EPA & CARB emission laws.
Now I hate the green movement as much as any one but to come out of this we now have engines that have better emissions, better fuel economy and smother power.
If we didnâ??t have the ETEC and OPTIMAX, 2 strokes outboards would be EXTINICT.
And I would be selling 4 strokes.
The reason 2 strokes are better on boats and sleds are the same as with dirt bikes.
Lower weight and more performance.
What has this got to do with dirt bikes?
Well like it or not the greenies want to kill the 2 stroke. FACT
Now remember these motors were designed to pass strict emission laws as the No.1 priority.
With dirtbike emissions laws a lot lower (not sure what they are) the designers can concentrate on performance instead and still be cleaner.
Imagine what the greenies would say if you put a dirtbike on the showroom floor that had better emissions then a 4 stroke.
They would be completely and utterly stumped.
They would have to then go away with their tails between their legs and find something else to pick on.
Oh but you say that there is no emission laws for closed circuit dirtbikes.
Well everyone knows about 80% of dirtbikes donâ??t see a motocross track.
The greenies know this and wonâ??t give up.
Something HAS to happen.
Donâ??t be scared of technology.
But I want to tune my bike.
Why?
I have customers who use their boats at 1500 meters and -6Deg centigrade.
Then drive to the coast and its 30Deg.
The only tuning necessary is to turn on the key.
The EMM works out in a milli second altitude, air temp, air density and engine temp.
If you have the following sensors the engine can adjust fuel and ignition for any condition you may be in.
Air Temp sensor
Barometric pressure sensor.
Exhaust pressure sensor.
Cylinder head temp sensor.
I have checked and I donâ??t think the Jap 4â??s are using a barometric pressure sensor and that is why you need to buy their tuning modules.
Please correct me if I am wrong!
Most 2 stroke Euro bikes now have a switchable ignition switch on them now to change power characteristics.
Imagine having a switch that can change both fuel and ignition settings.
Now you can change your motor from a screamer to a chugger.
Chris2T. The Ficht system is not a cheaper option. It is an inferior system.
The ETEC is a fourth generation Ficht.
One of the reasons BRP bought OMC was for the Ficht technology.
Detroit Diesel tried to buy the company as well for the same reason.
They even had buses painted up in Detroit to celebrate but got a shock that they werenâ??t the new owners.
So donâ??t be afraid.
The ETEC or Orbital system may be the only thing to save our beloved engine. Yamaha has the HPDI
Will they be heavier?
Yes but not by much.
An injector weighs 12oz. Only a bit more then a carb.
Sensors? weight sweet FA.
EMM? Same as your CDI unit now.
The weight issue is bull shit anyway.
A 2 stroke has a lower centre of gravity over a 4 stroke.
That is our only advantage these days anyway.
But it is a GOOD advantage.
So embrace the future.
Remember once you take off the electronics it is still a simple 2 stroke underneath.
So we can still do our own pistons etc.
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Would I go back to a carb on my road going vehicles? Not a chance, FI has been bullet proof on my MB's,Fords ,Volkswagens etc. and I would welcome DI on a dirtbike in a heartbeat.That monotone sound of the DI sleds is just a very efficient 2S with a broad powerband. To actually ride them is another matter - I think most people would be very impressed.
Monotone sound? Never heard an MXZ with A BRP aftermarket exhaust??? Insane!
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Wow, thanks TMKIWI! My whole thing was i wanted the technology to be perfected on the street first. But i supposed if it's good enough for a snowmobile..... :)
And I wholeheartedly agree with you - if not for direct injection there would be NO new 2 stroke outboards. it's certainly the savior of the 2 stroke.
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Here's what I'm worried about. Let's say that these things are super-reliable, more so than a carbed 2T, and everything's all great. Now, fast-forward thirty years. Unlike most buyers, I actually intend to keep and ride any bike I buy for decades. Let's say that something goes wrong, as it inevitably will when you start talking about decades. The factory stopped making my particular engine twenty-five years ago, and none of their technicians know how to service them, because stuff changes and moves on. In other words, it's exactly the situation I'd be in if something went wrong with my Husky today.
However, when something goes wrong with the Husky, you go on the internet, find the number for the part you need, maybe ask a few dudes who know about Huskies if it's a particularly scary job, and fix it in the garage with the part, some bolts, and an Allen wrench. But what the hell am I supposed to make of something with all these computers and wires and electronics and crazy oil systems and finely-tuned sensors and automatic so-on-and-so-forth? Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that maintenance on these sorts of engines is much more likely to be centered around the friendly local dealership than in the garage. Already, when something goes wrong with my dad's '77 Power Wagon he can fix it himself. But when something happens in the '98 Ram, there's a good chance he can fix it but also a good chance that he can't, and then it's off to the friendly local dealership. When the friendly local dealership stops catering to your vehicle, or moves out of town, or whatever, what are we supposed to do? Throw the thing in the garbage and buy a new one? I hold far too much sentimental value on both of my bikes to dream of doing that. I want to ride these things until I'm too old to ride anymore, I can't just get a new one.
That's my concern. If they can make these things such that you can fix the thing in your garage or in the pits given the proper parts, then I'll be 100% for it. In the meantime, I can only recommend that they simply dominate the street and leave the rough-ass off-road sort of work to a machine that can be maintained by a rough-ass off-road sort of person. I hope that Boyesen exhaust valve thing comes to fruition, because that sounds like precisely what the doctor ordered. Simple, mechanical, and effective. Maybe not as effective as an 8MHz computer (I like how they term it in millions of calculations to make it sound impressive), but good enough for a vehicle that's going to get pounded on by the terrain.
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Here's what I'm worried about. Let's say that these things are super-reliable, more so than a carbed 2T, and everything's all great. Now, fast-forward thirty years. Unlike most buyers, I actually intend to keep and ride any bike I buy for decades. Let's say that something goes wrong, as it inevitably will when you start talking about decades. The factory stopped making my particular engine twenty-five years ago, and none of their technicians know how to service them, because stuff changes and moves on. In other words, it's exactly the situation I'd be in if something went wrong with my Husky today.
However, when something goes wrong with the Husky, you go on the internet, find the number for the part you need, maybe ask a few dudes who know about Huskies if it's a particularly scary job, and fix it in the garage with the part, some bolts, and an Allen wrench. But what the hell am I supposed to make of something with all these computers and wires and electronics and crazy oil systems and finely-tuned sensors and automatic so-on-and-so-forth? Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that maintenance on these sorts of engines is much more likely to be centered around the friendly local dealership than in the garage. Already, when something goes wrong with my dad's '77 Power Wagon he can fix it himself. But when something happens in the '98 Ram, there's a good chance he can fix it but also a good chance that he can't, and then it's off to the friendly local dealership. When the friendly local dealership stops catering to your vehicle, or moves out of town, or whatever, what are we supposed to do? Throw the thing in the garbage and buy a new one? I hold far too much sentimental value on both of my bikes to dream of doing that. I want to ride these things until I'm too old to ride anymore, I can't just get a new one.
That's my concern. If they can make these things such that you can fix the thing in your garage or in the pits given the proper parts, then I'll be 100% for it. In the meantime, I can only recommend that they simply dominate the street and leave the rough-ass off-road sort of work to a machine that can be maintained by a rough-ass off-road sort of person. I hope that Boyesen exhaust valve thing comes to fruition, because that sounds like precisely what the doctor ordered. Simple, mechanical, and effective. Maybe not as effective as an 8MHz computer (I like how they term it in millions of calculations to make it sound impressive), but good enough for a vehicle that's going to get pounded on by the terrain.
Jetzcorp..again..we are in 2010..
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So what? I'm talking about when we're in 2040. I don't know about you, but I intend to live that long, and I don't intend to throw away all my stuff every five years and buy it new again. I want something with sticking power, that I can work on, and not put in the hands of some Dilbert-looking goon for $50/hour.
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Problem is Jetz name 1 consumer product bought today that is made to last 20 years.
None/Zip/Nada.
Thats just the way the cookie crumbles.
Chris is would love to see a modern 500cc DI road bike.
The Bimota Vdue has stuffed that up a bit though.
Hopefully it will happen 1 day.
PS: I nearly bought a RG400 last week but the bidding went too high.
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Mercedes Benz diesel cars are very expensive but will easily last 20 years.
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Hello,
This new engine starts on the first kick?
Any 2 stroke engine starts on the first kick, so that's nothing special. Whoopeee....
This DI fuel system is super reliable?
Maybe so... but there's 0% chance that a spaghetti bowl of that much crap is reliable like a carburetor with a slide, jet needle, and float valve as it's only moving parts, and no computer controlled crapola ...there's just no way ... And if something goes wrong, as nothing ever does, jets are 70 cents a piece, and floats are just about that price too... And very easy to fix.
Come to think of it, I'd say my Carburetor has been %100 reliable, and I think I'll keep it.
Is the DI engine really sooper dooper cleen???
So what... I'll ride a motocycle that smokes if I want to, and I don't care what glossy brochures full on new garbage try to get me to believe. And I certainly don't care what a bunch of hippies crying in the woods about dead trees think, about bikes OR anything else. There'll ALWAYS be huge flocks of sheeple... let them fall for that babble. The forrest and all of us people have survived all the scary monsters those freaks have screamed about since I can remember. "Acid Rain" "Non-Renewable Rescources" "Hole in the Ozone Layer" "El Nino'" "Killer Algae" and on, and on, and on.... fuck'em. I think of my cylinder bore and piston as a planet, and I jet my bike a little rich and pour in some extra oil to take care of the little aluminum planet and keep it from getting scratched, scored, or excessively warm... I can't be convinced that I hurt mother Earth while I was riding around today... Al Gore spoke and I still didn't care... I even saw the greenie movie AVATAR a couple days ago and I still don't care...
The DI engine can have a decent powerband?
That's great. That would be a reason to get excited if every 2 stroke machine in the world didn't have one already, the easy way. Why would I want to add 40 miles of wire, ENIAC the computer, and a sensor array geekotron to the mix to get a powerband? It's not even a real powerband. It's an Atari cartridge fake, electronically simulated phone sex version of the real actual powercurve which results from the tuned exhaust and reed valve or piston port efficiency of a real two stoke engine.
Do the DI engines smoke less? Or not at all?
That's great for anyone who cares... I like to see some smoke. That's how I know the engine's working right.
Thanks,
Jim
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I see your consumer analysis, and reject most of it. You value different things than I do in a motorcycle, and everyone else's are different. I do think there is a significant environmental concern, even if dirt bikes only make a small part of it. That's why I think an engine like this needs to take over the auto industry - because you can get the power consumers demand, without the pollution. I've spent a night in Los Angeles before, and just being in the city was enough to trigger the asthma I inherited from my dad's side of the family. It was miserable, and I personally would rather that my own city didn't turn that way. There are other cities where the classic carbureted two-strokes have dominated the transportation industry, precisely because they're cheap and light and powerful. But, all that pollution means that even the non-smokers have lung-disease rates that make Los Angeles look like a pristine mountain camp. Direct-injection technology, in a very simple form, has allowed these people to run their two-strokes not only cleanly, but actually even cheaper than before. It takes about a year for them to pay off the retrofit through their fuel savings, at which point it becomes pure gravy for them. We all want cheap two-strokes, well there they are, and they're not killing people. Forget about the polar bears for a moment, there are people on the line.
Your point about reliability is, I believe, valid. Like I said, even if the super-computerized engines are more reliable somehow, the fact that a carb is easy and cheap to work on at home gives it an immense benefit for applications that need to be low-cost, such as our dirt bikes. It's less important for street bikes, and less important still for automobiles. There's a reason that cars have more computers on them than even the fanciest of "cutting edge" four-stroke bikes. There's just no way any average could afford the up-front cost of one of them if they added all the circuitry and such, and then there's the hidden maintenance that they've already had to abandon.
I think I've already stated most of the rest I wanted to say. Ultimately, while a very sophisticated DI system will do very well for larger engines, I think that a simplified injection like the Envirofit system, or an engine modification that allows carburetors to remain in service, will be the best option for motocross and off-road bikes. And think of it this way, the less raw fuel we waste out the exhaust, the more power and fun you can get per tank of gas and bottle of 2T oil!
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So what? I'm talking about when we're in 2040. I don't know about you, but I intend to live that long, and I don't intend to throw away all my stuff every five years and buy it new again. I want something with sticking power, that I can work on, and not put in the hands of some Dilbert-looking goon for $50/hour.
We are not talking about a mortgage lol..talking about a dirt bike...
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While its all good and well to tell the greenies to "go fuck themselves", Who do you think has more say on government policy?.
"Greenies" or a "bunch of passionate guys who love 2smokes".
I wish they would F**k off but the fact remains they have a huge bearing on everything we do in our lives today.
All I am saying is we need our eyes open to new technology.
The enviro fit kit is a great piece of technology and a cheap price. Weather it will supply us with the power we are all after i am not sure. Look at the engines they are being fitted to.Very basic 2 strokes.
As for reliability I fish up to 50Nm offshore with 1 engine. I need reliability. I have not been blessed by the almighty to be able to walk home. You can walk home with a broken bike. We have all done that at some stage.
After using DI engines for the last 10 years I would never go back to a carby outboard.
I am waiting for the day to come when I can buy a DI 2 stroke Dirtbike.
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Hello,
This new engine starts on the first kick?
Any 2 stroke engine starts on the first kick, so that's nothing special. Whoopeee....
This DI fuel system is super reliable?
Maybe so... but there's 0% chance that a spaghetti bowl of that much crap is reliable like a carburetor with a slide, jet needle, and float valve as it's only moving parts, and no computer controlled crapola ...there's just no way ... And if something goes wrong, as nothing ever does, jets are 70 cents a piece, and floats are just about that price too... And very easy to fix.
Come to think of it, I'd say my Carburetor has been %100 reliable, and I think I'll keep it.
Is the DI engine really sooper dooper cleen???
So what... I'll ride a motocycle that smokes if I want to, and I don't care what glossy brochures full on new garbage try to get me to believe. And I certainly don't care what a bunch of hippies crying in the woods about dead trees think, about bikes OR anything else. There'll ALWAYS be huge flocks of sheeple... let them fall for that babble. The forrest and all of us people have survived all the scary monsters those freaks have screamed about since I can remember. "Acid Rain" "Non-Renewable Rescources" "Hole in the Ozone Layer" "El Nino'" "Killer Algae" and on, and on, and on.... fuck'em. I think of my cylinder bore and piston as a planet, and I jet my bike a little rich and pour in some extra oil to take care of the little aluminum planet and keep it from getting scratched, scored, or excessively warm... I can't be convinced that I hurt mother Earth while I was riding around today... Al Gore spoke and I still didn't care... I even saw the greenie movie AVATAR a couple days ago and I still don't care...
The DI engine can have a decent powerband?
That's great. That would be a reason to get excited if every 2 stroke machine in the world didn't have one already, the easy way. Why would I want to add 40 miles of wire, ENIAC the computer, and a sensor array geekotron to the mix to get a powerband? It's not even a real powerband. It's an Atari cartridge fake, electronically simulated phone sex version of the real actual powercurve which results from the tuned exhaust and reed valve or piston port efficiency of a real two stoke engine.
Do the DI engines smoke less? Or not at all?
That's great for anyone who cares... I like to see some smoke. That's how I know the engine's working right.
Thanks,
Jim
I have respect for life and the environment and thinking about the future generation. I cannot believe how it is such a big compromise for some of you guys to keep the two stroke alive by switching to the fuel injection? You can whine all day about a problem but if you don't do anything about it nothing will change.
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Hello,
I'm not making an attempt to guess at consumer wants or trends.
I don't care what they want. I know what I want, and I know what I do about what I want. Maybe some people don't like the bikes of the 60's and 70's. I'm glad they don't, because that means there are more left for me.
A Kawasaki H2 sounds good to me. What's better than 1 Carburetor? 2 or 3 of them!
Thanks,
Jim
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Hello,
I'm not making an attempt to guess at consumer wants or trends.
I don't care what they want. I know what I want, and I know what I do about what I want. Maybe some people don't like the bikes of the 60's and 70's. I'm glad they don't, because that means there are more left for me.
A Kawasaki H2 sounds good to me. What's better than 1 Carburetor? 2 or 3 of them!
Thanks,
Jim
You vintages bikes are no help just like your attitude. We are in 2010 :-[
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Well it's good not everyone here likes NEW bikes.
That just means there are more for the rest of us when they come out.
My mate has just bought a mint H2.
Great for riding round the block but i wouldn't want to do 1000km on one.
Yes I have riden it.
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Well it's good not everyone here likes NEW bikes.
That just means there are more for the rest of us when they come out.
My mate has just bought a mint H2.
Great for riding round the block but i wouldn't want to do 1000km on one.
Yes I have riden it.
I agree, Being careless about the air you breath, ignorant and trashing the new 2 stroke technology is totally ridiculous. I am trying to stay polite. LOL
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Hello,
Vintage 2 stroke bikes that run perfectly day after day, year after year, for decades on end do a huge amount to promote everything 2 stroke. Shocked 4 stroke riders ask if anything special has been done to make them last that long. The answer is no. They were just designed well, and cared for well. Simple and robust designes hold up best. It's no surprise that no one involved in selling today's crap likes to aknowlege that fact... After all, some of those old machines are missing a crucial engineering consideration... They weren't designed to break often enough or permanently enough... Drat!
Total loss oil injection systems are really great for an engine's longevity if used properly. All your bearings and piston skirts ever see is brand new oil! I love it!
No wonder these old things are running tight, probably 13 to 15 years after the comperable 4 strokes of similar vintage have quit.
Tell you what... I'll take a nice cheap old fastie, and get 30 years of fun out of it just because I change the trans oil a lot and run synthetics and castor on the heavy side, AND the coldest spark plug possible no matter what the jack off EPA says to do, other people can get DI bikes and run them till the Active Neural Net Dorkomoptamizer blows out.
I'll see you when you get it running again.
There's no need for rediculous new Rube Goldberg treatments where it comes to 2 stroke technology.
Active Neural Net Dorkomoptamizer for 2 Stroke Engine
(http://www.DamselStruction.com/RubeGoldberg.gif)
It's perfect just the way it is. It's been perfect since someone thought of a way to get the fuel mixture in, and maximize the benefits with a tuned exhaust. Rotory Valves and Reeds were the last things we really needed, and those have been developed to near perfection now. Maybe a turbo cut crank would be nice...
Thanks,
Jim
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Ultimately, this talk doesn't amount to much of anything. There isn't really anything any of us can do to influence the way things go, besides talking with others and spreading our opinions. The real decision will emerge when one or more of the manufacturers lay down some capital and make some bikes. Some may go with a balls-out whiz-bang BRB-style craziness. Others may opt for an option resembling a high-performance version of the Envirofit setup. Others still might try Boyesen's exhaust valve, or develop their own alternative that we haven't come up with. The winner will be determined on the showroom floors and balance sheets. There's a good chance that there will be more than one option to choose from, and the classic setup may well survive, as I'm detecting that a fair number of people are very attached to it. We all vote with our pocketbooks when we decide which new bike to buy, and when we decide whether to buy a new bike at all.
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Problem is Jetz name 1 consumer product bought today that is made to last 20 years.
None/Zip/Nada.
Thats just the way the cookie crumbles.
Chris is would love to see a modern 500cc DI road bike.
The Bimota Vdue has stuffed that up a bit though.
Hopefully it will happen 1 day.
PS: I nearly bought a RG400 last week but the bidding went too high.
one consumer product that lasts for decades or more are firearms. i have several that are over 100 years old and i use the hell out of them every fall. i also have an 75hp E-tec Evinrude on my War Eagle river boat and that thing flat kicks ass. it is the best outboard i have ever used. even with 5 people in the boat it hauls the mail. now i'm just bragging :P but i have two Kaw H2's also. although i not a vintage dirt bike fan i love those old street bikes. they get about 22 mpg!
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As I understand it, the folks that are interested in injection systems for two-strokes, only want to see them so that no one can use the "Two-strokes have horrible emissions" story.
Like the noise problem, the emissions story would be much better if something could be done by use the consumer, instead of waiting for our beloved machines to be legislated out of extinction. Imagine if there was a way in the 1970's to clean up the emissions on two-stroke street machines... you would still be able to buy them at a dealer!
Please don't make this all to be a disagreement about new versus old. The old machines were and still are awesome... and that is all some folks want... the same can be said for the new ones.... it's really difficult to say that one is somehow "better" than the other. But you can easily say that you prefer one over the other.
You guys that like the old machines... please don't hate on the new technology which could bring the two-stroke back into the mainstream.... I understand that the simplicity of those machines have great appeal to you... which is awesome!
I love looking at older technology just as much as the next guy... but I also yearn for the day when we will have pod racing (Star Wars 1) as well.... lot's of computers, mechanical shit and fast, good fun....
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Hey Guys,
I'm sure this is a very efficient engine.
If the only things that make you excited about owning and riding a 2 stroke conveyance are:
1. The fact that it combusts on each downstroke of the piston, and that *every single revolution of the crank has a power stroke. *(Single Cylinder)
2. It burns fuel.
:then maybe this is exciting for you.
Personally, a couple matches on dry technical parameters are not enough for me.
I feel that engines like this are an almost complete departure from everything that makes people passionate about their 2 strokes, and vigilant enough to fight to preserve the right to own and ride them, and to have access to them in the future along with the alternatives. This thing hardly even resembles a 2 stroke.
A while ago, in another thread about Direct Injection, someone posted about a 600cc Direct Injection sled and pointed the way to some videos of it on YouTube.
Well, that thing sounded like an electric toothbrush inside a toaster oven, crossed with a hopped up pool filter. Am I supposed to get excited about that instead of the wail of my YZ's? I can't see that happening.
The video showed the Direct injection sled running with another sled, either conventional 2 stroke or 4 stroke. The two appeared to have very similar performance, with neither one really looking superior. Tell you the truth I don't remember if the other sled was 2 or 4 stroke, because I was too put off by the neutered DI 2 stroke that was supposed to be the star of the video.
How about the power? The DI numbers are impressive, but isn't it just as much about the way the engine serves it up? It is for me... If just any horsepower would do, why care as much as we do about 2 stroke as an alternative to 4 stroke? Why not just "Get it straight with Honda!" ....And don't start with some crap about "You can program the power curve! It can be either a mop bucket for when grandma rides, or they also have the Rick Johnson CR500 module at the dealer... You just plug it in and... WHAM-O! Exciting power!..." Atari Cartridge power bands are phone sex. A big part of the fun and excitement of riding a 2 stroke has always been the unique topography of the power curve, and the fact that a skilled rider learns his engine and knows how to work with it... Without some electronic mediating committee in the pipeline between you and your vehicle to negotiate rider input and engine response. Fuck that.
Then there's the new cylinder head... WOW! you mean now WE 2 stroke guys would get to have engines with a 10 or 11 inch tall, 6 layer wedding cake of a cylinder sticking up above our cases? Sounds like "AMA MowerCross" the 2 stroke version. Whoa!.. What's next? Will they tilt the weddng cake back 4 degrees, off center to the crankshaft, and put the fuel boiling tank under the seat? And the airbox in the space where the old fuel boiling tank was? Only one thing's missing... "Unicam Technology";) Well... No thanks, I think what I've got right now is better, and simpler, and more reliable.
What about the EPA and all that crap? Hmmmm.... While it might be nice to be able to go into a dealer and get a new dualsport bike with one of these Eunuch 2 stoke engines in it, I could never really say it would be exciting... What IS exciting to me with regard to the EPA vs 2 Stroke conflict in the USA is the fact that there are so many loopholes allowing us to get REAL 2 STROKES only a handfull of years old if we want them. Gas Gas EC's, KTM200EXC-GS's from England and Singapore, Suzuki RMX250ST's and HondaCRM250's of 3 different types from Japan's domestic market, just to name a few. Actually, it works with ANY KTM of any age because of the way the papers are written, The 200EXC-GS just caters to my preference for volumetric oil injection.
Maybe there are 3 types of engine. The 2 Stroke, the 4 Stroke, and the Eunuch 2 Stroke.
No castor smell... No Crank Case Scavenging... Difficult to recognize with your eyes. Difficult to recognize with your ears... Difficult to recognize with your throttle hand...
We had excellent, vibrant, reliable bikes for a long time and then along came some manufacturers, some stupid motorcycles, and a media blitz and now we find ourselves awash in a sea of crappy, complicated, perfectly boring motorcycles... Now, here comes another wave...
If we want to be able to enjoy riding 2 stroke motocycles, it might be time to stop letting people sell us one stupid idea after another.
Thanks,
Jim
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!!!
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The thing is John some of the guys here who love old bikes wouldn't buy any new bikes anyway.And have said so.
Quote: "that no one involved in selling todays crap".
So to say they wouldn't buy a new new DI bike is bullshit anyway.
Stick to your classics but don't talk crap about something you know nothing about.
Heres a novel thought, instead of rambling on about the good old days how about asking some intelligent questions.
You actually have someone on this site that KNOWS about this technology.
I work on these "new pieces of crap" every day.
It pisses me off when people run down something without knowing anything about it.
Another thing that has always pissed me of is back yard mechanics that know everything.
But i suppose today you can be a EXPERT just by looking it up on the net!
No need to do any courses or study for a few years.
"and i jet my bike a little rich and pour in some extra oil","and run the coldest plug available".
Stupid comments like like are the reason 2 strokes have a bad reputation.
I wonder if Eric Gorr & Mitch Payton tune their bikes by the above theory.
If you are going to run a 2 stroke, TUNE the bloody thing properly!!!
So if anyone has some intellegent questions ,fire away.
If you want to argue about points,condensers and a left side kick start are better piss of to the vintage section.
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My comment/question still stands. Is the bombardier design practically maintainable by a single person in their garage, without dependence on the friendly local dealership? Given the manual and the proper parts (which I'm guessing are fairly cheap compared to, say, a valvetrain) could a reasonably mechanically-literate person repair and/or maintain the machine? I'm not sure, that's why I said it was a concern of mine, and not an outright blasting of the thing. I even said, if they are easy to work on and don't require some specialized computer gizmology, I'll certainly be far more supportive of a motocross application. I'd certainly be willing to buy a sport-bike with this technology if that's the case.
By the way, you're not going to see me defending points and condensers anytime soon. 95% of the bike problems I've seen people have revolve around those two damn components. I don't get why anyone would be militant to left-side-kick though. Maybe I should start a thread on that...
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Hello,
I want to answer the post just above Jetz's. First I'm going out for a ride. I'll see you when I get back.
Thanks,
Jim
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Everything old and easy for the average guy to understand and tinker with is far better than any modern day technology.The fact that big brother is trying to push technologically advanced though underpowered and inefficient machinery on us these days is all a government conspiracy.Fortunately,I'm immune to their evil agenda as my tinfoil hat blocks their mind control devices and keeps the black helicopters at bay.Now if you'll excuse me I'm going hunting,as soon as I find where I put my clubbing stick and throwing rock.
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Hi Jetz.
Yes the engine would still be same.
By that i mean yes you will still be able to take the top end of at home.
The engine wont change it will just have some sensors hanging of it.
It is not as scary as it sounds.
All the sensors used have been around for years now ,so are reliable. Nothing space age.
Weather you can work on the electronics at home will depend on what type of EMM the manufactors release.
On the ETEC's they have 4 LED lights that will flash a code if anything is wrong.The codes are in the owners manual.
All you need to test the sensors is a Ohms meter.
You should not have to tune the bike at all because the computer will take care of different conditions.
We will have to wait and see if/when a bike comes out about having different maps in the EMM.
Hopefully a switch on the bars to change maps would be good.
Unfortunatly there will be some things you will have to go to your friendly dealer about.
Same as all modern vehicles.
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Hey Ford can i borrow your clubing stick when you get back.
I have lost mine.
Think the misses used it for lighting the fire.
Shit the cave is cold today.
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Anytime tmkiwi.I seem to be having difficulty contacting you however.It would appear the prevailing winds have blown my smoke signals out to sea.If you get a chance,pick up your soup can and string and I'll do the same so we can converse properly and work something out. ;D
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That's what I'm worried about, because I fear the friendly local dealer won't want care to offer service for my bike as long as I'd want to keep the bike. Especially if KTM are the ones who bring us this technology, we know their reputation for customer support on "older" machines. They desperately want you to throw away your old KTM and buy the new KTM.
So here's the next question. What sort of things are we depending on the friendly local dealer for, and if the friendly local dealer were to vanish into the ether, would it be possible to get the job done anyway?
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That's life Jetz.Many cars these days have a 10 year cut off for dealer part availability.If you can't get it aftermarket,you're sol.Time for a new one.Many things depend on demand.It's hardly economically viable for a manufacturer to retain tooling and manufacturing capability for old machinery when the demand is almost nonexistent.
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Hey Jetz.
Nothing will change in that regard.
You still have to go to the friendly dealer now for bits for any bike. Yamaha,KTM,Suzuki or what ever.
You cant make clutch plates at home do you?
Ford i cant find any string.
The bloody missus has used it to light the fire.
Bloody women!!
I need to get out of the cave. Go see if i can find me a stick.
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I hear ya.I thought I misplaced my string as well until I noticed the wife appeared to be trying to hide it on me.Considering where she had it,and after giving it much thought,I decided she can just dam well keep it :o
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Maintenance, that will be tit. You can still change a top, or bottom end, but the electronics will be like OBD1 or 2 (if the feds have their way). All you need is a scan tool if the check engine light came on. I don't understand way people are scared shitless of all the electronics and wiring. Well then again I was a mechanic working on cars, and I hated how stupid engineers placed their engines and covered them with 10 lbs of damn plastic. <---- This is the reason I don't work on cars as a mechanic, but back to the subject. I'm so used to electronics that I am not afraid of wiring running there and here, and changing an ecu is easier than changing jets. Hell, If you can hack the ecu, all ya need to do is start pushing keys on a keyboard.<----- This isn't for the beginner or novice, you can and will blow the motor up if you don't have a clue what the hell your doing. That's your own risk, so you have been warned! Yes I have seen some ecu's crap out, but it happens, so buy a new one. Also some of the electronics and sensors will shit the bed, but technology has come a long way.
Now weight. Will it weigh more? Sure it will but not by much, this just means you'll just have to find ways to lose the 2 pounds (if that) that were added to the bike. Oh yea, it'll still weigh less than the lead sleds. Like TMKIWI said a few pages back, your taking all the electronics off the the carb bike and then putting the EFI, DI on. Last time I checked spark advance is run by a....... you guessed it a CDI box, which is......... do I have to say it again ELECTRONICS!! Also the 02+ CR250 has a stepper motor to run the power valve, do I have to say what that is? Oh wait a second, KTM's 250GP racer had an injector of some sort (not sure if it was an injector or a solenoid built into the carb) for high rpm and over rev fuelling along with the CDI and stepper motor.
It looks like to me, TMKIWI knows his shit about DI 2 strokes. He has experience in this field as I have experience with EFI and cars. And he is right, so I have to give him credit for putting up with some of you and your dinos ;D. I also have to thank 2smoker for sticking up for the DI 2 stroke. It's the future and should have been years ago, and it's going to happen no matter what anyone thinks. So stock up on carbs and CDI boxes. J/K :P
PS. I'm not pissed off at the nay sayers I'm just trying to get the point across. There's always two sides to a story and always will be. I hope I didn't offend anyone. Thanks
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Thank you out of order.
I could not have put it better myself.
Yes it wont take very long to be able to buy a tuner if/when DI's come out.
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Yamaha has one now for their 4t's.If I remember correctly it costs about $200.Pretty cheap and quick and easy if you want to change the map and do some fiddling.A lot quicker than swapping jets.Cripes,you could change a setting,do a couple laps,change it again and so on.Sounds pretty sweet to me.
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so it looks like we have 3 warring factions here: old school 2 stroke, DI 2 stroke, and something in between. As far as a modern DI 2 stroke compared to an old school one, you can't compare apples (mx bikes) to oranges (snowmobiles), so to get a fair comparison we have to look at snowmobiles. Put the Rotax 800 DI etec against any regular 2 stroke competitor and the only thing it loses in is price and serviceability. It has more horsepower and torque, a better power spread, better mpg, uses less oil, lower emissions, better idling (no plug fouling at extended idle), superior adaptability to changing elevations. And it screams the same sounds as the old school!! Face it, performance-wise THE DI WINS!
BUT.....in motocross price and serviceability are held in extremely high regard (aren't those 2 of the big reasons why we hate 4 strokes?). It's a MAJOR bone of contention with a lot of guys on this board. TMKIWI, i understand that you are a DI tech so could you make an estimated line-by-line comparison of a top end job for both types of engines, including parts and costs?
Anyways, why can't we have a machine that is an evolution of the mx engines that we currently have, but not quite the tech-laden jewel that BRP makes? I spoke with the Envirofit people a while ago. They make a relatively simple system that adapts DI to very low tech 2 stroke scooters in asian countries. Among other things the kit comes with a pump that sprays a mist of oil into the combustion chamber. The guy i spoke with said it actually lubricates better than old school because the oil is no longer diluted by gas. THIS is the kind of "high-tech simplicity" we need in motocross!!
p.s - once again, as a disclaimer, i am ALL FOR the high-tech DI engine on the street
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Mitch Payton of Pro Circuit is self taught. If a person does not intuitively have an interest and fundamental understanding of the subject all the education in the world will not help him (or her).The only constant in life is change - either you adapt or you get left behind. KTM and BRP are adapting and you and I will have to do so as well.
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Put the Rotax 800 DI etec against any regular 2 stroke competitor and the only thing it loses in is price and serviceability.
You can't do anything about the price, but if it's a mass produced bike it should be cheaper than the tractors. Serviceability, I'd say screw the dealerships, all they do is try to screw people.<---(I'm not sure if it's the same in your area). I work on my own stuff, I refuse to let other people work on my car, bike, ect. If I screw up I have my self to blame and I will be slamming my head against the wall saying what the hell did I do wrong. But that's why they sell repair manuals. If an ecu craps out, well looks like I'll have to dish out $500 to replace it, oh well shit happens. Does it happen on a daily basis.... no, when was the last time you replaced the CDI box? I never had to on my 96 KX125.
A EFI or DI bike will be the same as working on a carb bike. It will have a high pressure pump connected to engine, a direct injector in the head along with a spark plug, a stepper motor attached to the frame to control the exhaust valve (note: some bikes may have a mechanical exhaust valve), O2 sensor in the belly of the pipe, EGT sensor in the header near the exhaust port (optional),coolant temp sensor coming out of the engine, TPS on the throttle body, the throttle body it self which regulates the air coming in to the engine, Intake temp sensor in the airbox, a manifold air pressure sensor to calculate the air pressure in the intake, the crank positioning sensor so the computer knows when to put fuel in to the engine and fire it, also you need a stepper motor to inject the oil in to the crankcase, and last but not least the Engine Control Unit which controls everything.
I know KTM has been working on this for a while and they want to get it right the first time. But I have never seen a DI bike so therefore I can't really comment on how well it will run. I do know the boat and snowmobile guys love it, and have minimal complaints, and yes they were sceptical at first because all they heard about 2 strokes were their dirty, they smoke a lot, and they pollute. Well not any more boys!!! In the end people will buy them no matter what anyone says, and I can't wait to see one of these bad boys in person. And yea it will cost more $$, but 2 stroke lovers will still buy them.
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Hello,
I don't object to new technology.
This new fuel system simply represents something which is completely un necessary for me to have fun on a motorcycle. It's easy enough to understand.
Direct injection is just a new to our neck of the woods way of doing a job that's currently handled mostly by carburetors on 2 stroke bikes, with a few exceptions. There are examples, almost exclusively on modern 4 stroke bikes, where the carburetor systems have left something to be desired, performance wise. For example, I know from experience that on an 05 CRF450, the engine frequently just cuts out as you try to nudge it off idle. You'll be coasting into a downhill off camber or something with the clutch in, getting ready to come back on the power, and instead the engine will just flame out.
That is the kind of thing that would have me looking for some alternative. Obviously, something's got to be done about that because it's quite a drag. They solved it, sort of, with EFI. Just that pesky stuff about gas dribbling down and filling up those crank cases on the Hondas. Still, maybe even that's better than having them do that stall out thing so much.
However, on the 04 YZ125 and the 06YZ250, no such problems exist. Also, there are no problems with any of the old bikes. It seems like there's very little potential for a problem unless the bikes owner does something very stupid, which would mess up any machine no matter how it worked. You know what I mean dirty or perforated air filter, bad gasoline, that kind of stuff.
My issue is that since the bikes work so well, perfectly in fact, with the simple system they employ already, I have no reason to be the least bit interested in the "New guy". All the 2 stroke bikes start on the first kick, and run great all day no matter what we put them through. All that in addition to the fact that no "Friendly Neighborhood Dealer" is ever needed, and that's always good news. If carbureted 2 strokes didn't run so well, if they had problems with stalling out, not starting in the blink of en eye, flooding, flaming out, or anything like that, then a replacement for the carb would be way more interesting, but fortunately that's not how it is because they work great.
Some people care about things other than just how the bikes run. I'm not one of those people, for whatever reason. If you care a lot about your bike's emissions, fuel consumption, oil consumption, and all that stuff then you have a very good reason to be interested in DI systems like this. For someone who cares about all that stuff, it's probably worth trading the simplicity, low cost, reliability, and solid functionality of a carburetor for the cleaner emissions and all that. For me, the DI system is of little or no value because the best thing it has to offer in trade for a very substantial increase in complexity, cost, weight, and all that is lower emissions, which I don't really care about with regard to motorcycles.
I don't hate the new technology, I just wish they would try to fix something that's broken that's all. Pick a part of our bikes that doesn't already work great and try to improve that, instead of complicating the good parts by like 3 orders of magnitude. Imagine what that same kind of initiative could have resulted in if it was put to use differently...
Maybe an "Automatic Race Sag Adjust-o-tron"... Or "R2 The Tire Changing Robot"...
It's too bad the oil injection part of the system is so integrated with the rest of it. I would be interested in just the oil injection part if there was some way to toss the rest of the system. I'd just have to figure out how to get it to pump way more oil...
Thanks,
Jim
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The biggest problem with carburetors is that so few really know how to tune them. Many racers/riders look in a magazine and use the jetting specs the guys in California used, no matter in they live in Death Valley or Mount Everest (exaggeration alert!!)
I'm not saying that everyone should run out and buy Fuel Injection or Direct Injection machines.. although I have heard like third hand or something of someone that has tested a fuel-injected KTM two-stroke... he loved it!
But arguing against them when there are not any built for our motorcycling passions is akin to arguing about a race track layout on the moon.... no first hand experience. Sure everyone can make guesses, even highly educational ones. But until you put the "rubber to the road" there can be very little conversation.
These new technologies allow the use of two-strokes in uses such as marine and snowmobiling... otherwise there would be none available at all. Don't you see that as a good thing?
At some point... opps.... the reason that we have four-strokes virtually eliminating the tw-stroke in motocross and off-road riding is because of emissions. Plain and simple... actually it's more because of the off-road riding than racing, because the EPA does not regulate competition closed course machines.
If you'd like to read hours of mind numbing rules and regulations this link will take you to a story I wrote on this, that contains the EPA regulations for emissions on off-road machines. In that you will read that one manufacturer (KTM??) was asking questions about cleaning up emissions on two-strokes... the others were saying that they were going to move to the "cleaner" four-strokes"....
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/04/the-epa-vs-motocross/ (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/04/the-epa-vs-motocross/)
Argue as much as you want about wanting to have the old technology.. but realize at some point your stance will end up hurting all... Now I'm not saying that you have to change your mind and embrace injection systems... but I am saying to keep an open mind.
A solution to the problem must be found in some way. So far this technology shows promise..
As a part of Project Two 50 we are working on an alternate idea to significantly reduce emissions for a two-stroke machine... until it is tested no claims can or will be made.
But if we don't find a solution, the only way you'll be able to own a two-stroke is if you restore an old one or build it from scratch in your garage...
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Okay, I have a couple small things to say.
First, it seems that the main dependence on the friendly local dealership is parts availability, and that that's the same as the current situation. Here's the thing, though, I know that parts don't have to come from the dealership. I've got a 30 year-old bike, and I know plenty of places to get parts from, and none of them are backed by BMW's Husqvarna. Much of the reason for this is the fact that these parts are simple. They can't be made by some dude in his garage, but a third-party company like Vintage Iron can certainly make them for you. There's no proprietary software installed into the KTM Injectotron, it's almost always a piece of metal that you can literally scan into the computer and then have your super-crazy Makestuffotron machine for you. So I guess I'm concerned twofold. One, that it won't be possible to get the electronics from a third party when/if the dealership closes, and that once you have it in your hand, you won't be able to install it.
Now, based on what I've heard in this thread, most of the installation will be simple enough to do. The line about an ECU being easier to install than jetting a carburetor comes to mind. And there are usually avenues to get parts even when no one on the planet is making them anymore, as there are some bizarre-minded people who seem to stock them up like squirrels and then sell them off thirty years later. The reason my '67 Kawasaki scares me is that all the parts squirrels have run out of parts, for the most part. My other bike is common enough to have people making new parts for it, fortunately.
Anyway, I'm not totally against the complete no-holds-barred technology of the BRP thing, but I still think that a solution more like the envirofit model will be better for our needs. If they can get the performance high enough to be competitive, and keep it simple enough that no one can create a massive paragraph listing all the computers and sensors, then I'll throw my hat into the ring and say they've created the best solution to all the problems. I like my carbureted bike, and I'm not going to give it up, but that's not because of the carburetor. I think the two strokes of the future just flat-out have to be injected, and the application will determine how complex and head-achy they become. Remember, again, that we're talking about taking DI two-strokes from a role in which they have all the electronics, into motocross. Who else has done this? The four-stroke people! They already have the hardcore computers and circuitry in cars all the time, but we may note that when Suzuki makes a 450F, it's a hell of a lot less computerized than when they make a compact SUV. I think that's what's going to happen when two-strokes go DI.
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Hey John,
I understand that.
My thoughts aren't based on the faults or merits of the DI system. Of course not many of us know what they're like because we don't have experience with them. Rather, my argument is based on the fact that what I have has never let me down and performs perfectly, keeping the engine lit through the full range of load levels and speeds. Barring an airbox full of mud or a broken throttle cable, I can't see why I'd ever have a problem.
I don't want to venture a guess about how well the DI works or what it's like to ride with one, that would be foolish without experience. But I don't need to own one to realize how much more complicated it is, complete with many additional modes of failure.
The other issue is that I love 2 strokes and I know why I love them. When you are being pulled along by your engine, it's almost like riding a wave or something. There's an art to knowing how to get that engine ahead of the wave, and balanced on the best part of it's power and potential. The personality and character of the engines is what attracts most of us to them. The strange power curve, which immediately alienates some people and sends them packing, is exactly what attracts some of us and initiates us for life! And all of that results from the quirky gas dynamics that are basic to the engine's process. People either understand that or they don't, and if they don't it's not my problem.
2 strokes are imperfect and raunchy no doubt about it, but I love them anyway. That's why I fight for them. Otherwise, why not follow the herd straight into the 4 stroke pen, and make it easy on myself.
If perfect linear power and clean emissions are what someone's looking for, then they need a new kind of engine for sure. This DI engine may be perfect for them, but there's no way it's a "2 stroke" anyone would recognize, in any way other than that most academic. It fires on each downstroke of the piston.
Because of the total elimination of most of what makes a 2 stroke recognizable as a 2 stroke, and the substitution of other completely different things in their place, I think this is really a completely new engine.
Maybe that's good for some people, and they certainly have their right to it. I just know it's not something I would be interested in, for whatever that's worth. I also have my right to keep my non-DI bikes.
Thanks,
Jim
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Here's some posts at RZRD500.com. This guys name is Smurph, and he has a RZ350 that is fuel injected.
http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1899&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1899&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1795&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 (http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1795&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)
Make sure you read them in full, there's a lot of info.
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Well, at least I know with a simplified injection like the envirofit system, we'll probably be dealing with a similar sort of powerband. In that case, and correct me if I'm wrong, the only thing being injected is the fuel. Air still enters the engine through the crankcase and does all that transfer port goodness which helps to create the powerband we know. Unless this part is changed, the powerband won't change, because fuel and air are supposed to be linked at a certain ratio, otherwise you get an incomplete reaction (either un-burned gas or un-reacted oxygen) and so you tune against that. The carburetor tries to get the ratio correct before the crankcase, and then any air that's lost carries unburned fuel with it, causing our hydrocarbon emission problem. With DI, you'd have to set the injector such that it changes how much fuel gets into the engine as RPM changes, because you'll have varying amounts of air on your compression stroke as different amounts of it are lost out the exhaust. I imagine the injector will come this way from the factory, then you'll have just adjust the injector whenever you port the engine and change the characteristics of the airflow. This is analogous to jetting your carb, though the process will obviously be different.
That's my total and complete guess on how this is all going to go down if we have a simple injection system.
And Out of Order, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that guy just replacing the carb with injectors? Looks to me like we'll still have fuel-air mix entering the crankcase, and then after that it's the same as a carb system. It's just fuel injected, not direct injected, where fuel is put into the cylinder after the exhaust port has closed. It's interesting, and would be somewhat relevant in terms of tuning and what-not, but definitely a different ball-game to direct-injection.
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I don't know why you're debating this. Judging by your posts, and your bike inventory you'll never purchase a new MXer ever again. Stick to the vintage races and argue about how tilted you can get your twin shocks.
I hope this new technology can broaden out and punch up a 2 stroke power band. It's going to be nice that your jetting is spot on everytime.
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I'm debating about it because I actually care about where the technology goes. And I'll buy a new bike when someone makes a new bike that I think is worth buying. A simple, effective injection setup would go a long, LONG way to doing that, because I want to support this technology and make the future a better place to live. That was a major theme of my editorial here a while back. That's why I'm debating this.
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Initially I too was confused as to why someone would retro fit FI to a 2s streetbike when you still have the emissions problems vs DFI. Then I realized that the goal seems to be increased engine flexibility, increased power and a slight reduction in emissions and fuel consumption. All these attributes are directly transferrable to offroad 2s engines and , for example, would greatly help Project 250 both from the PR perspective and as a racing weapon. I'm wondering if the 4sF's FI is adaptable to 2s's?
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The 2 stroke started off with a carb, now we have to climb the ladder. The first step would be batch,semi batch, semi sequential, and sequential through a throttle body (ala the EFI tractors). Now we can move on to Semi Direct Injection (SDI), which has to be sequential because the fuel needs to be injected before the transfer ports close (BRP). I assume there could be injector ports next to the exhaust ports and the same height, so the injectors can spray a bit longer. Finally, there's Direct Injection, which sprays fuel into the cylinder after the exhaust port closes. This requires a lot (in the thousands) pressure to over come the compression. This is what KTM and BRP are working on for bikes, this technology is already in other areas of powersports.
JETZ, he used a 38mm CV slide throttle bodies on the RZ350. I believe he got them from a early 2000's Yamaha R6. Yes there's still fuel entering the crankcase, but the ECU controls how much fuel will enter when your just cruising (think low rpm's and little throttle,also like driving your car down the highway at 65) down a open field or trail. It's all about metering fuel, and then if your bikes jetted at sea level but you climb a mountain that's 12000 feet which bike will run better. Also RZ's have oil injection which helps reduce emission's(which is also metered) , to make the morons in DC happy.
SachsGS, I'm not sure about if the 4 stroke ECUs are adaptable to 2 strokes. If a computer wiz can crack it, then anything is possible. I would do like Smurph did with his RZ350 and go with the Microsquirt or MiniMS. Megasquirt 3 is out which can also control a 2 stroke. Other than that we are all stuck with that expensive a$$ Motec. But with the Megasquirt system is their box is not waterproof, but I have heard some people have moded them to fit in waterproof enclosures.
Oh yea, Smurph said with the carb RZ there was always a noticeable stumble at around 5000 RPM. When he put the EFI system on and tuned the bike, that stumble was gone. Carbs do hesitate and bog at times you don't want them to, but you can get them running pretty decent. EFI will get rid of those hesitations and will run the same (or pretty damn close) at noon time and say after the sun goes down. Why do you think at NASCAR races they constantly change there carbs or jets. Because the track and the weather changes.
The EFI motors will run only how well the software guys program them. If their smart and know their stuff, well the bike will run anywhere. But if theirs one guy who just started out programming, then it's going to run like shit. But I have faith In KTM and BRP, and their products are at the top of my list.
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Thats what i like, a good discussion.
Now, the guys with the older bikes i agree 100% the reason you like the currant carb bikes.
Simple, easy to maintain, can change the jetting your self etc...
The reason i am all for new DI technology is because i think it is the only thing that will keep 2 strokes on the market.
Now put aside your personal opinion on carbies or DI for a moment.
Does anyone think a carby 2 stroke will be avaliable to buy in 5 years? ANYONE????.
Regardless what your personal thoughts on emmisions are, ALOT of people do care.
And thats the problem with the currant 2 stroke.
Thankfully people smarter then you and I are working on it.
I am not trying to sell you the BRP system.
So weather it is BRP's ETEC or the Orbital system(which everyone thinks is what KTM are working on) or Envirovit or something else new
i say bring it on. Beacuse I want to be able to buy a 2 stroke in the future.
As someone a couple of posts back said,otherwise all we will be able to do is keep working on what we have got now.
Thats when we will ALL be vintage two stroke guys.
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Guy's this is actually a fantastic conversation... I am so thrilled to be a part of it. I know I sometimes throw wet blankets on stuff, but really it's just to make sure we all look at all the sides of a problem.. not always easy to do...
Suzuki TS250/185 ... are you sure that the machine with DFI can not have the same power delivery that all of us have grown to love?
I don't know the answer, but I'd love to find out!!
One additional thought, with computers that are able to simulate just about anything, why couldn't a DFI system powerband be infinitely adjustable?? It's just adding the gas seperate from the air, which is coming into the engine normally...
My understanding of the entire DFI system is that by computer controlling when the gas is squirted into the engine (after the exhaust valve closes) is only to prevent gas escaping out the exhaust, creating emissions issues... but everything else about the engine is the same.
The air still goes through a throttle body, it's just not mixed with the fuel until it's inside the cylinder.. same turbocharging effect as before. Which is what gives the two-stroke it's signature powerband.
I know that the dyno chart where they overlayed the 450F and potential 450 two-stroke showed similar powerband (with the 2 having much higher output) has concerned many two-stroke fans. But that was only done to show the vet racer and anyone else that prefers the 4 stroke power delivery that a two-stroke of the same displacement could have the same power delivery only much more.
As I see it that does not mean that the power would "have" to be mellow, just that it can be "programmed" that way..
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The power curve we all love is certainly going to stay.
By that i mean with the electronics, you can program in any sort of power curve you want.(within reason,electronics can't change your porting).
I am sure the manufactors will release a engine with a girls blouse powerband to please the masses as in the 450 graph.
But is that such a bad thing if people can buy a 2/S with a linear power spread.
The more people that buy 2/S the better for everyone.
Most Euro bikes now have switchable ignition curve .
Combine that with adjustable fueling and we have the best of both worlds.
If you dont like the mellow curve switch it to the hard curve.Even take the switch of if thats what floats your boat.
Anyone heard of the Vortex programable ignition sytem available now ?
None of the technology is new.Just the application.
Chris2T
I have priced up top end rebuilds for both a etec & carby motor.
Both are 115hp V4,s. Both are made by BRP
Prices inc ,Pistons & Rings and gasket sets.I have not inc labour because both jobs would take the same amount of time.
115 Carby $1727.00
115 DI $1705.00
As I have said before the engine does not need to change.
Just the way the fuel is metered.
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Hers a good link to the Aprillia DiTech.
If they can make it affordable on a scooter then can do the same for a MX bike.
http://www.speed-sports.com/motorscooters/scooter_models/aprilia_scooters/ditech.html (http://www.speed-sports.com/motorscooters/scooter_models/aprilia_scooters/ditech.html)