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Offline Out of Order

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2010, 10:44:56 PM »
Quote
Put the Rotax 800 DI etec against any regular 2 stroke competitor and the only thing it loses in is price and serviceability.

You can't do anything about the price, but if it's a mass produced bike it should be cheaper than the tractors. Serviceability, I'd say screw the dealerships, all they do is try to screw people.<---(I'm not sure if it's the same in your area). I work on my own stuff, I refuse to let other people work on my car, bike, ect. If I screw up I have my self to blame and I will be slamming my head against the wall saying what the hell did I do wrong. But that's why they sell repair manuals. If an ecu craps out, well looks like I'll have to dish out $500 to replace it, oh well shit happens. Does it happen on a daily basis.... no, when was the last time you replaced the CDI box? I never had to on my 96 KX125.

A EFI or DI bike will be the same as working on a carb bike. It will have a high pressure pump connected to engine, a direct injector in the head along with a spark plug, a stepper motor attached to the frame to control the exhaust valve (note: some bikes may have a mechanical exhaust valve), O2 sensor in the belly of the pipe, EGT sensor in the header near the exhaust port (optional),coolant temp sensor coming out of the engine, TPS on the throttle body, the throttle body it self which regulates the air coming in to the engine, Intake temp sensor in the airbox, a manifold air pressure sensor to calculate the air pressure in the intake, the crank positioning sensor so the computer knows when to put fuel in to the engine and fire it, also you need a stepper motor to inject the oil in to the crankcase, and last but not least the Engine Control Unit which controls everything.

I know KTM has been working on this for a while and they want to get it right the first time. But I have never seen a DI bike so therefore I can't really comment on how well it will run. I do know the boat and snowmobile guys love it, and have minimal complaints, and yes they were sceptical at first because all they heard about 2 strokes were their dirty, they smoke a lot, and they pollute. Well not any more boys!!! In the end people will buy them no matter what anyone says, and I can't wait to see one of these bad boys in person. And yea it will cost more $$, but 2 stroke lovers will still buy them.   

Offline Suzuki TS250/185

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2010, 11:05:52 PM »
Hello,

I don't object to new technology.

This new fuel system simply represents something which is completely un necessary for me to have fun on a motorcycle. It's easy enough to understand.

Direct injection is just a new to our neck of the woods way of doing a job that's currently handled mostly by carburetors on 2 stroke bikes, with a few exceptions. There are examples, almost exclusively on modern 4 stroke bikes, where the carburetor systems have left something to be desired, performance wise.  For example, I know from experience that on an 05 CRF450, the engine frequently just cuts out as you try to nudge it off idle. You'll be coasting into a downhill off camber or something with the clutch in, getting ready to come back on the power, and instead the engine will just flame out.

That is the kind of thing that would have me looking for some alternative. Obviously, something's got to be done about that because it's quite a drag. They solved it, sort of, with EFI. Just that pesky stuff about gas dribbling down and filling up those crank cases on the Hondas. Still, maybe even that's better than having them do that stall out thing so much.

However, on the 04 YZ125 and the 06YZ250, no such problems exist. Also, there are no problems with any of the old bikes. It seems like there's very little potential for a problem unless the bikes owner does something very stupid, which would mess up any machine no matter how it worked. You know what I mean dirty or perforated air filter, bad gasoline, that kind of stuff.

My issue is that since the bikes work so well, perfectly in fact, with the simple system they employ already, I have no reason to be the least bit interested in the "New guy". All the 2 stroke bikes start on the first kick, and run great all day no matter what we put them through. All that in addition to the fact that no "Friendly Neighborhood Dealer" is ever needed, and that's always good news. If carbureted 2 strokes didn't run so well, if they had problems with stalling out, not starting in the blink of en eye, flooding, flaming out, or anything like that, then a replacement for the carb would be way more interesting, but fortunately that's not how it is because they work great.

Some people care about things other than just how the bikes run. I'm not one of those people, for whatever reason. If you care a lot about your bike's emissions, fuel consumption, oil consumption, and all that stuff then you have a very good reason to be interested in DI systems like this. For someone who cares about all that stuff, it's probably worth trading the simplicity, low cost, reliability, and solid functionality of a carburetor for the cleaner emissions and all that. For me, the DI system is of little or no value because the best thing it has to offer in trade for a very substantial increase in complexity, cost, weight, and all that is lower emissions, which I don't really care about with regard to motorcycles.

I don't hate the new technology, I just wish they would try to fix something that's broken that's all. Pick a part of our bikes that doesn't already work great and try to improve that, instead of complicating the good parts by like 3 orders of magnitude. Imagine what that same kind of initiative could have resulted in if it was put to use differently...

Maybe an "Automatic Race Sag Adjust-o-tron"... Or "R2 The Tire Changing Robot"...

It's too bad the oil injection part of the system is so integrated with the rest of it. I would be interested in just the oil injection part if there was some way to toss the rest of the system. I'd just have to figure out how to get it to pump way more oil...

Thanks,

Jim  


  
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 11:13:29 PM by Suzuki TS250/185 »
I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline JohnN

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #62 on: May 01, 2010, 05:27:32 AM »
The biggest problem with carburetors is that so few really know how to tune them. Many racers/riders look in a magazine and use the jetting specs the guys in California used, no matter in they live in Death Valley or Mount Everest (exaggeration alert!!)

I'm not saying that everyone should run out and buy Fuel Injection or Direct Injection machines.. although I have heard like third hand or something of someone that has tested a fuel-injected KTM two-stroke... he loved it!

But arguing against them when there are not any built for our motorcycling passions is akin to arguing about a race track layout on the moon.... no first hand experience. Sure everyone can make guesses, even highly educational ones. But until you put the "rubber to the road" there can be very little conversation.

These new technologies allow the use of two-strokes in uses such as marine and snowmobiling... otherwise there would be none available at all. Don't you see that as a good thing?

At some point... opps.... the reason that we have four-strokes virtually eliminating the tw-stroke in motocross and off-road riding is because of emissions. Plain and simple... actually it's more because of the off-road riding than racing, because the EPA does not regulate competition closed course machines.

If you'd like to read hours of mind numbing rules and regulations this link will take you to a story I wrote on this, that contains the EPA regulations for emissions on off-road machines. In that you will read that one manufacturer (KTM??) was asking questions about cleaning up emissions on two-strokes... the others were saying that they were going to move to the "cleaner" four-strokes"....

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/04/the-epa-vs-motocross/

Argue as much as you want about wanting to have the old technology.. but realize at some point your stance will end up hurting all... Now I'm not saying that you have to change your mind and embrace injection systems... but I am saying to keep an open mind.

A solution to the problem must be found in some way. So far this technology shows promise..

As a part of Project Two 50 we are working on an alternate idea to significantly reduce emissions for a two-stroke machine... until it is tested no claims can or will be made.

But if we don't find a solution, the only way you'll be able to own a two-stroke is if you restore an old one or build it from scratch in your garage...
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2010, 09:17:15 AM »
Okay, I have a couple small things to say.

First, it seems that the main dependence on the friendly local dealership is parts availability, and that that's the same as the current situation.  Here's the thing, though, I know that parts don't have to come from the dealership.  I've got a 30 year-old bike, and I know plenty of places to get parts from, and none of them are backed by BMW's Husqvarna.  Much of the reason for this is the fact that these parts are simple.  They can't be made by some dude in his garage, but a third-party company like Vintage Iron can certainly make them for you.  There's no proprietary software installed into the KTM Injectotron, it's almost always a piece of metal that you can literally scan into the computer and then have your super-crazy Makestuffotron machine for you.  So I guess I'm concerned twofold.  One, that it won't be possible to get the electronics from a third party when/if the dealership closes, and that once you have it in your hand, you won't be able to install it.

Now, based on what I've heard in this thread, most of the installation will be simple enough to do.  The line about an ECU being easier to install than jetting a carburetor comes to mind.  And there are usually avenues to get parts even when no one on the planet is making them anymore, as there are some bizarre-minded people who seem to stock them up like squirrels and then sell them off thirty years later.  The reason my '67 Kawasaki scares me is that all the parts squirrels have run out of parts, for the most part.  My other bike is common enough to have people making new parts for it, fortunately.

Anyway, I'm not totally against the complete no-holds-barred technology of the BRP thing, but I still think that a solution more like the envirofit model will be better for our needs.  If they can get the performance high enough to be competitive, and keep it simple enough that no one can create a massive paragraph listing all the computers and sensors, then I'll throw my hat into the ring and say they've created the best solution to all the problems.  I like my carbureted bike, and I'm not going to give it up, but that's not because of the carburetor.  I think the two strokes of the future just flat-out have to be injected, and the application will determine how complex and head-achy they become.  Remember, again, that we're talking about taking DI two-strokes from a role in which they have all the electronics, into motocross.  Who else has done this?  The four-stroke people!  They already have the hardcore computers and circuitry in cars all the time, but we may note that when Suzuki makes a 450F, it's a hell of a lot less computerized than when they make a compact SUV.  I think that's what's going to happen when two-strokes go DI.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline Suzuki TS250/185

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2010, 09:19:29 AM »
Hey John,

I understand that.

My thoughts aren't based on the faults or merits of the DI system. Of course not many of us know what they're like because we don't have experience with them. Rather, my argument is based on the fact that what I have has never let me down and performs perfectly, keeping the engine lit through the full range of load levels and speeds. Barring an airbox full of mud or a broken throttle cable, I can't see why I'd ever have a problem.

I don't want to venture a guess about how well the DI works or what it's like to ride with one, that would be foolish without experience. But I don't need to own one to realize how much more complicated it is, complete with many additional modes of failure.

The other issue is that I love 2 strokes and I know why I love them. When you are being pulled along by your engine, it's almost like riding a wave or something. There's an art to knowing how to get that engine ahead of the wave, and balanced on the best part of it's power and potential. The personality and character of the engines is what attracts most of us to them. The strange power curve, which immediately alienates some people and sends them packing, is exactly what attracts some of us and initiates us for life! And all of that results from the quirky gas dynamics that are basic to the engine's process. People either understand that or they don't, and if they don't it's not my problem.  

2 strokes are imperfect and raunchy no doubt about it, but I love them anyway. That's why I fight for them. Otherwise, why not follow the herd straight into the 4 stroke pen, and make it easy on myself.

If perfect linear power and clean emissions are what someone's looking for, then they need a new kind of engine for sure. This DI engine may be perfect for them, but there's no way it's a "2 stroke" anyone would recognize, in any way other than that most academic. It fires on each downstroke of the piston.

Because of the total elimination of most of what makes a 2 stroke recognizable as a 2 stroke, and the substitution of other completely different things in their place, I think this is really a completely new engine.

Maybe that's good for some people, and they certainly have their right to it. I just know it's not something I would be interested in, for whatever that's worth. I also have my right to keep my non-DI bikes.

Thanks,

Jim

    





  

  

 
I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline Out of Order

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2010, 09:33:12 AM »
Here's some posts at RZRD500.com. This guys name is Smurph, and he has a RZ350 that is fuel injected.

http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1899&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

http://www.rzrd500.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1795&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Make sure you read them in full, there's a lot of info.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2010, 10:02:54 AM »
Well, at least I know with a simplified injection like the envirofit system, we'll probably be dealing with a similar sort of powerband.  In that case, and correct me if I'm wrong, the only thing being injected is the fuel.  Air still enters the engine through the crankcase and does all that transfer port goodness which helps to create the powerband we know.  Unless this part is changed, the powerband won't change, because fuel and air are supposed to be linked at a certain ratio, otherwise you get an incomplete reaction (either un-burned gas or un-reacted oxygen) and so you tune against that.  The carburetor tries to get the ratio correct before the crankcase, and then any air that's lost carries unburned fuel with it, causing our hydrocarbon emission problem.  With DI, you'd have to set the injector such that it changes how much fuel gets into the engine as RPM changes, because you'll have varying amounts of air on your compression stroke as different amounts of it are lost out the exhaust.  I imagine the injector will come this way from the factory, then you'll have just adjust the injector whenever you port the engine and change the characteristics of the airflow.  This is analogous to jetting your carb, though the process will obviously be different.

That's my total and complete guess on how this is all going to go down if we have a simple injection system.

And Out of Order, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that guy just replacing the carb with injectors?  Looks to me like we'll still have fuel-air mix entering the crankcase, and then after that it's the same as a carb system.  It's just fuel injected, not direct injected, where fuel is put into the cylinder after the exhaust port has closed.  It's interesting, and would be somewhat relevant in terms of tuning and what-not, but definitely a different ball-game to direct-injection.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline KTMguy

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #67 on: May 01, 2010, 10:17:29 AM »
I don't know why you're debating this. Judging by your posts, and your bike inventory you'll never purchase a new MXer ever again. Stick to the vintage races and argue about how tilted you can get your twin shocks.

I hope this new technology can broaden out and punch up a 2 stroke power band. It's going to be nice that your jetting is spot on everytime.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #68 on: May 01, 2010, 10:31:31 AM »
I'm debating about it because I actually care about where the technology goes.  And I'll buy a new bike when someone makes a new bike that I think is worth buying.  A simple, effective injection setup would go a long, LONG way to doing that, because I want to support this technology and make the future a better place to live.  That was a major theme of my editorial here a while back.  That's why I'm debating this.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline SachsGS

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #69 on: May 01, 2010, 11:05:18 AM »
Initially I too was confused as to why someone would retro fit FI to a 2s streetbike when you still have the emissions problems vs DFI. Then I realized that the goal seems to be increased engine flexibility, increased power and a slight reduction in emissions and fuel consumption. All these attributes are directly transferrable to offroad 2s engines and , for example, would greatly help Project 250 both from the PR perspective and as a racing weapon. I'm wondering if the 4sF's FI is adaptable to 2s's?

Offline Out of Order

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #70 on: May 01, 2010, 12:32:52 PM »
The 2 stroke started off with a carb, now we have to climb the ladder. The first step would be batch,semi batch, semi sequential, and sequential through a throttle body (ala the EFI tractors). Now we can move on to Semi Direct Injection (SDI), which has to be sequential because the fuel needs to be injected before the transfer ports close (BRP). I assume there could be injector ports next to the exhaust ports and the same height, so the injectors can spray a bit longer. Finally, there's Direct Injection, which sprays fuel into the cylinder after the exhaust port closes. This requires a lot (in the thousands) pressure to over come the compression. This is what KTM and BRP are working on for bikes, this technology is already in other areas of powersports.

JETZ, he used a 38mm CV slide throttle bodies on the RZ350. I believe he got them from a early 2000's Yamaha R6. Yes there's still fuel entering the crankcase, but the ECU controls how much fuel will enter when your just cruising (think low rpm's and little throttle,also like driving your car down the highway at 65) down a open field or trail. It's all about metering fuel, and then if your bikes jetted at sea level but you climb a mountain that's 12000 feet which bike will run better. Also RZ's have oil injection which helps reduce emission's(which is also metered) , to make the morons in DC happy.

SachsGS, I'm not sure about if the 4 stroke ECUs are adaptable to 2 strokes. If a computer wiz can crack it, then anything is possible. I would do like Smurph did with his RZ350 and go with the Microsquirt or MiniMS. Megasquirt 3 is out which can also control a 2 stroke. Other than that we are all stuck with that expensive a$$ Motec. But with the Megasquirt system is their box is not waterproof, but I have heard some people have moded them to fit in waterproof enclosures.

Oh yea, Smurph said with the carb RZ there was always a noticeable stumble at around 5000 RPM. When he put the EFI system on and tuned the bike, that stumble was gone. Carbs do hesitate and bog at times you don't want them to, but you can get them running pretty decent. EFI will get rid of those hesitations and will run the same (or pretty damn close) at noon time and say after the sun goes down. Why do you think at NASCAR races they constantly change there carbs or jets. Because the track and the weather changes.

The EFI motors will run only how well the software guys program them. If their smart and know their stuff, well the bike will run anywhere. But if theirs one guy who just started out programming, then it's going to run like shit. But I have faith In KTM and BRP, and their products are at the top of my list. 

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #71 on: May 01, 2010, 06:10:02 PM »
Thats what i like, a good discussion.
Now, the guys with the older bikes i agree 100% the reason you like the currant carb bikes.
Simple, easy to maintain, can change the jetting your self etc...
The reason i am all for new DI technology is because i think it is the only thing that will keep 2 strokes on the market.
Now put aside your personal opinion on carbies or DI for a moment.
 Does anyone think a carby 2 stroke will be avaliable to buy in 5 years? ANYONE????.
Regardless what your personal thoughts on emmisions are, ALOT of people do care.
And thats the problem with the currant 2 stroke.
Thankfully people smarter then you and I are working on it.
I am not trying to sell you the BRP system.
So weather it is BRP's ETEC or the Orbital system(which everyone thinks is what KTM are working on) or Envirovit or something else new
i say bring it on. Beacuse I want to be able to buy a 2 stroke in the future.
As someone a couple of posts back said,otherwise all we will be able to do is keep working on what we have got now.
Thats when we will ALL be vintage two stroke guys.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline JohnN

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #72 on: May 01, 2010, 06:29:41 PM »
Guy's this is actually a fantastic conversation... I am so thrilled to be a part of it. I know I sometimes throw wet blankets on stuff, but really it's just to make sure we all look at all the sides of a problem.. not always easy to do...

Suzuki TS250/185 ... are you sure that the machine with DFI can not have the same power delivery that all of us have grown to love?

I don't know the answer, but I'd love to find out!!

One additional thought, with computers that are able to simulate just about anything, why couldn't a DFI system powerband be infinitely adjustable?? It's just adding the gas seperate from the air, which is coming into the engine normally...

My understanding of the entire DFI system is that by computer controlling when the gas is squirted into the engine (after the exhaust valve closes) is only to prevent gas escaping out the exhaust, creating emissions issues... but everything else about the engine is the same.

The air still goes through a throttle body, it's just not mixed with the fuel until it's inside the cylinder.. same turbocharging effect as before. Which is what gives the two-stroke it's signature powerband.

I know that the dyno chart where they overlayed the 450F and potential 450 two-stroke showed similar powerband (with the 2 having much higher output) has concerned many two-stroke fans. But that was only done to show the vet racer and anyone else that prefers the 4 stroke power delivery that a two-stroke of the same displacement could have the same power delivery only much more.

As I see it that does not mean that the power would "have" to be mellow, just that it can be "programmed" that way..
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Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2010, 02:39:25 PM »
The power curve we all love is certainly going to stay.
By that i mean with the electronics, you can program in any sort of power curve you want.(within reason,electronics can't change your porting).
I am sure the manufactors will release a engine with a girls blouse powerband to please the masses as in the 450 graph.
But is that such a bad thing if people can buy a 2/S with a linear power spread.
The more people that buy 2/S the better for everyone.
Most Euro bikes now have switchable ignition curve .
Combine that with adjustable fueling and we have the best of both worlds.
If you dont like the mellow curve switch it to the hard curve.Even take the switch of if thats what floats your boat.
Anyone heard of the Vortex programable ignition sytem available now ?
None of the technology is new.Just the application.

Chris2T
I have priced up top end rebuilds for both a etec & carby motor.
Both are 115hp V4,s. Both are made by BRP
Prices inc ,Pistons & Rings and gasket sets.I have not inc labour because both jobs would take the same amount of time.

115 Carby   $1727.00
115 DI        $1705.00

As I have said before the engine does not need to change.
Just the way the fuel is metered.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #74 on: May 02, 2010, 06:29:39 PM »
Hers a good link to the Aprillia DiTech.
If they can make it affordable on a scooter then can do the same for a MX bike.

http://www.speed-sports.com/motorscooters/scooter_models/aprilia_scooters/ditech.html
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough