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Offline Suzuki TS250/185

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2010, 08:03:26 PM »
Hello,

This new engine starts on the first kick?

Any 2 stroke engine starts on the first kick, so that's nothing special. Whoopeee....

This DI fuel system is super reliable?

Maybe so... but there's 0% chance that a spaghetti bowl of that much crap is reliable like a carburetor with a slide, jet needle, and float valve as it's only moving parts, and no computer controlled crapola ...there's just no way ... And if something goes wrong, as nothing ever does, jets are 70 cents a piece, and floats are just about that price too... And very easy to fix.

Come to think of it, I'd say my Carburetor has been %100 reliable, and I think I'll keep it.

Is the DI engine really sooper dooper cleen???

So what... I'll ride a motocycle that smokes if I want to, and I don't care what glossy brochures full on new garbage try to get me to believe. And I certainly don't care what a bunch of hippies crying in the woods about dead trees think, about bikes OR anything else. There'll ALWAYS be huge flocks of sheeple... let them fall for that babble. The forrest and all of us people have survived all the scary monsters those freaks have screamed about since I can remember. "Acid Rain" "Non-Renewable Rescources" "Hole in the Ozone Layer" "El Nino'" "Killer Algae" and on, and on, and on.... fuck'em. I think of my cylinder bore and piston as a planet, and I jet my bike a little rich and pour in some extra oil to take care of the little aluminum planet and keep it from getting scratched, scored, or excessively warm... I can't be convinced that I hurt mother Earth while I was riding around today... Al Gore spoke and I still didn't care... I even saw the greenie movie AVATAR a couple days ago and I still don't care...

The DI engine can have a decent powerband?

That's great. That would be a reason to get excited if every 2 stroke machine in the world didn't have one already, the easy way. Why would I want to add 40 miles of wire, ENIAC the computer, and a sensor array geekotron to the mix to get a powerband? It's not even a real powerband. It's an Atari cartridge fake, electronically simulated phone sex version of the real actual powercurve which results from the tuned exhaust and reed valve or piston port efficiency of a real two stoke engine.

Do the DI engines smoke less? Or not at all?

That's great for anyone who cares... I like to see some smoke. That's how I know the engine's working right.

Thanks,

Jim

I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2010, 08:31:36 PM »
I see your consumer analysis, and reject most of it.  You value different things than I do in a motorcycle, and everyone else's are different.  I do think there is a significant environmental concern, even if dirt bikes only make a small part of it.  That's why I think an engine like this needs to take over the auto industry - because you can get the power consumers demand, without the pollution.  I've spent a night in Los Angeles before, and just being in the city was enough to trigger the asthma I inherited from my dad's side of the family.  It was miserable, and I personally would rather that my own city didn't turn that way.  There are other cities where the classic carbureted two-strokes have dominated the transportation industry, precisely because they're cheap and light and powerful.  But, all that pollution means that even the non-smokers have lung-disease rates that make Los Angeles look like a pristine mountain camp.  Direct-injection technology, in a very simple form, has allowed these people to run their two-strokes not only cleanly, but actually even cheaper than before.  It takes about a year for them to pay off the retrofit through their fuel savings, at which point it becomes pure gravy for them.  We all want cheap two-strokes, well there they are, and they're not killing people.  Forget about the polar bears for a moment, there are people on the line.

Your point about reliability is, I believe, valid.  Like I said, even if the super-computerized engines are more reliable somehow, the fact that a carb is easy and cheap to work on at home gives it an immense benefit for applications that need to be low-cost, such as our dirt bikes.  It's less important for street bikes, and less important still for automobiles.  There's a reason that cars have more computers on them than even the fanciest of "cutting edge" four-stroke bikes.  There's just no way any average could afford the up-front cost of one of them if they added all the circuitry and such, and then there's the hidden maintenance that they've already had to abandon.

I think I've already stated most of the rest I wanted to say.  Ultimately, while a very sophisticated DI system will do very well for larger engines, I think that a simplified injection like the Envirofit system, or an engine modification that allows carburetors to remain in service, will be the best option for motocross and off-road bikes.  And think of it this way, the less raw fuel we waste out the exhaust, the more power and fun you can get per tank of gas and bottle of 2T oil!


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline 2smoker

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2010, 08:40:34 PM »
So what?  I'm talking about when we're in 2040.  I don't know about you, but I intend to live that long, and I don't intend to throw away all my stuff every five years and buy it new again.  I want something with sticking power, that I can work on, and not put in the hands of some Dilbert-looking goon for $50/hour.

We are not talking about a mortgage lol..talking about a dirt bike...
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2010, 09:03:16 PM »
While its all good and well to tell the greenies to "go fuck themselves", Who do you think has more say on government policy?.
"Greenies" or a "bunch of passionate guys who love 2smokes".
I wish they would F**k off but the fact remains they have a huge bearing on everything we do in our lives today.

All I am saying is we need our eyes open to new technology.
The enviro fit kit is a great piece of technology and a cheap price. Weather it will supply us with the power we are all after i am not sure. Look at the engines they are being fitted to.Very basic 2 strokes.

As for reliability I fish up to 50Nm offshore with 1 engine. I need reliability. I have not been blessed by the almighty to be able to walk home. You can walk home with a broken bike. We have all done that at some stage.
After using DI engines for the last 10 years I would never go back to a carby outboard.
I am waiting for the day to come when I can buy a DI 2 stroke Dirtbike.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline 2smoker

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2010, 09:08:38 PM »
Hello,

This new engine starts on the first kick?

Any 2 stroke engine starts on the first kick, so that's nothing special. Whoopeee....

This DI fuel system is super reliable?

Maybe so... but there's 0% chance that a spaghetti bowl of that much crap is reliable like a carburetor with a slide, jet needle, and float valve as it's only moving parts, and no computer controlled crapola ...there's just no way ... And if something goes wrong, as nothing ever does, jets are 70 cents a piece, and floats are just about that price too... And very easy to fix.

Come to think of it, I'd say my Carburetor has been %100 reliable, and I think I'll keep it.

Is the DI engine really sooper dooper cleen???

So what... I'll ride a motocycle that smokes if I want to, and I don't care what glossy brochures full on new garbage try to get me to believe. And I certainly don't care what a bunch of hippies crying in the woods about dead trees think, about bikes OR anything else. There'll ALWAYS be huge flocks of sheeple... let them fall for that babble. The forrest and all of us people have survived all the scary monsters those freaks have screamed about since I can remember. "Acid Rain" "Non-Renewable Rescources" "Hole in the Ozone Layer" "El Nino'" "Killer Algae" and on, and on, and on.... fuck'em. I think of my cylinder bore and piston as a planet, and I jet my bike a little rich and pour in some extra oil to take care of the little aluminum planet and keep it from getting scratched, scored, or excessively warm... I can't be convinced that I hurt mother Earth while I was riding around today... Al Gore spoke and I still didn't care... I even saw the greenie movie AVATAR a couple days ago and I still don't care...

The DI engine can have a decent powerband?

That's great. That would be a reason to get excited if every 2 stroke machine in the world didn't have one already, the easy way. Why would I want to add 40 miles of wire, ENIAC the computer, and a sensor array geekotron to the mix to get a powerband? It's not even a real powerband. It's an Atari cartridge fake, electronically simulated phone sex version of the real actual powercurve which results from the tuned exhaust and reed valve or piston port efficiency of a real two stoke engine.

Do the DI engines smoke less? Or not at all?

That's great for anyone who cares... I like to see some smoke. That's how I know the engine's working right.

Thanks,

Jim



I have respect for life and the environment and thinking about the future generation. I cannot believe how it is such a big compromise for some of you guys to keep the two stroke alive by switching to the fuel injection? You can whine all day about a problem but if you don't do anything about it nothing will change.
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline Suzuki TS250/185

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2010, 09:14:54 PM »
Hello,

I'm not making an attempt to guess at consumer wants or trends.

I don't care what they want. I know what I want, and I know what I do about what I want. Maybe some people don't like the bikes of the 60's and 70's. I'm glad they don't, because that means there are more left for me.

A Kawasaki H2 sounds good to me. What's better than 1 Carburetor? 2 or 3 of them!

Thanks,

Jim
I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline 2smoker

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2010, 09:26:18 PM »
Hello,

I'm not making an attempt to guess at consumer wants or trends.

I don't care what they want. I know what I want, and I know what I do about what I want. Maybe some people don't like the bikes of the 60's and 70's. I'm glad they don't, because that means there are more left for me.

A Kawasaki H2 sounds good to me. What's better than 1 Carburetor? 2 or 3 of them!

Thanks,

Jim

You vintages bikes are no help just like your attitude. We are in 2010  :-[
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2010, 09:48:29 PM »
Well it's good not everyone here likes NEW bikes.
That just means there are more for the rest of us when they come out.

My mate has just bought a mint H2.
Great for riding round the block but i wouldn't want to do 1000km on one.
Yes I have riden it.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline 2smoker

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2010, 09:57:23 PM »
Well it's good not everyone here likes NEW bikes.
That just means there are more for the rest of us when they come out.

My mate has just bought a mint H2.
Great for riding round the block but i wouldn't want to do 1000km on one.
Yes I have riden it.

I agree, Being careless about the air you breath, ignorant and trashing the new 2 stroke technology is totally ridiculous. I am trying to stay polite. LOL
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline Suzuki TS250/185

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2010, 10:01:31 PM »
Hello,

Vintage 2 stroke bikes that run perfectly day after day, year after year, for decades on end do a huge amount to promote everything 2 stroke. Shocked 4 stroke riders ask if anything special has been done to make them last that long. The answer is no. They were just designed well, and cared for well. Simple and robust designes hold up best. It's no surprise that no one involved in selling today's crap likes to aknowlege that fact... After all, some of those old machines are missing a crucial engineering consideration... They weren't designed to break often enough or permanently enough... Drat!

Total loss oil injection systems are really great for an engine's longevity if used properly. All your bearings and piston skirts ever see is brand new oil! I love it!

No wonder these old things are running tight, probably 13 to 15 years after the comperable 4 strokes of similar vintage have quit.

Tell you what... I'll take a nice cheap old fastie, and get 30 years of fun out of it just because I change the trans oil a lot and run synthetics and castor on the heavy side, AND the coldest spark plug possible no matter what the jack off EPA says to do, other people can get DI bikes and run them till the Active Neural Net Dorkomoptamizer blows out.

I'll see you when you get it running again.

There's no need for rediculous new Rube Goldberg treatments where it comes to 2 stroke technology.

Active Neural Net Dorkomoptamizer for 2 Stroke Engine


It's perfect just the way it is. It's been perfect since someone thought of a way to get the fuel mixture in, and maximize the benefits with a tuned exhaust. Rotory Valves and Reeds were the last things we really needed, and those have been developed to near perfection now. Maybe a turbo cut crank would be nice...

Thanks,

Jim  
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 10:56:27 PM by Suzuki TS250/185 »
I think 4 stroke dirtbikes are a phase, kind of like "Glam Rock" in a way. You see the whole world subscribing to it, and you wonder how everyone could be choking down so much Kool Aid and Spam... Then 10 Years later, nothing's left but the timeless stuff from before and after..

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2010, 11:10:21 PM »
Ultimately, this talk doesn't amount to much of anything.  There isn't really anything any of us can do to influence the way things go, besides talking with others and spreading our opinions.  The real decision will emerge when one or more of the manufacturers lay down some capital and make some bikes.  Some may go with a balls-out whiz-bang BRB-style craziness.  Others may opt for an option resembling a high-performance version of the Envirofit setup.  Others still might try Boyesen's exhaust valve, or develop their own alternative that we haven't come up with.  The winner will be determined on the showroom floors and balance sheets.  There's a good chance that there will be more than one option to choose from, and the classic setup may well survive, as I'm detecting that a fair number of people are very attached to it.  We all vote with our pocketbooks when we decide which new bike to buy, and when we decide whether to buy a new bike at all.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline admiral

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2010, 04:27:44 AM »
Problem is Jetz name 1 consumer product bought today that is made to last 20 years.
None/Zip/Nada.

Thats just the way the cookie crumbles.

Chris is would love to see a modern 500cc DI road bike.
The Bimota Vdue has stuffed that up a bit though.
Hopefully it will happen 1 day.

PS: I nearly bought a RG400 last week but the bidding went too high.

one consumer product that lasts for decades or more are firearms. i have several that are over 100 years old and i use the hell out of them every fall. i also have an 75hp E-tec Evinrude on my War Eagle river boat and that thing flat kicks ass. it is the best outboard i have ever used. even with 5 people in the boat it hauls the mail. now i'm just bragging  :P but i have two Kaw H2's also. although i not a vintage dirt bike fan i love those old street bikes. they get about 22 mpg!

Offline JohnN

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #42 on: April 30, 2010, 06:47:25 AM »
As I understand it, the folks that are interested in injection systems for two-strokes, only want to see them so that no one can use the "Two-strokes have horrible emissions" story.

Like the noise problem, the emissions story would be much better if something could be done by use the consumer, instead of waiting for our beloved machines to be legislated out of extinction. Imagine if there was a way in the 1970's to clean up the emissions on two-stroke street machines... you would still be able to buy them at a dealer!

Please don't make this all to be a disagreement about new versus old. The old machines were and still are awesome... and that is all some folks want... the same can be said for the new ones.... it's really difficult to say that one is somehow "better" than the other. But you can easily say that you prefer one over the other.

You guys that like the old machines... please don't hate on the new technology which could bring the two-stroke back into the mainstream.... I understand that the simplicity of those machines have great appeal to you... which is awesome!

I love looking at older technology just as much as the next guy... but I also yearn for the day when we will have pod racing (Star Wars 1) as well.... lot's of computers, mechanical shit and fast, good fun....
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline KXwestYZ

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine...? What's in a name? Or Term?
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2010, 02:34:11 PM »
Hey Guys,

I'm sure this is a very efficient engine.

If the only things that make you excited about owning and riding a 2 stroke conveyance are:

1. The fact that it combusts on each downstroke of the piston, and that *every single revolution of the crank has a power stroke. *(Single Cylinder)

2. It burns fuel.

:then maybe this is exciting for you.

Personally, a couple matches on dry technical parameters are not enough for me.

I feel that engines like this are an almost complete departure from everything that makes people passionate about their 2 strokes, and vigilant enough to fight to preserve the right to own and ride them, and to have access to them in the future along with the alternatives. This thing hardly even resembles a 2 stroke.

A while ago, in another thread about Direct Injection, someone posted about a 600cc Direct Injection sled and pointed the way to some videos of it on YouTube.

Well, that thing sounded like an electric toothbrush inside a toaster oven, crossed with a hopped up pool filter. Am I supposed to get excited about that instead of the wail of my YZ's? I can't see that happening.

The video showed the Direct injection sled running with another sled, either conventional 2 stroke or 4 stroke. The two appeared to have very similar performance, with neither one really looking superior. Tell you the truth I don't remember if the other sled was 2 or 4 stroke, because I was too put off by the neutered DI 2 stroke that was supposed to be the star of the video.

How about the power? The DI numbers are impressive, but isn't it just as much about the way the engine serves it up? It is for me... If just any horsepower would do, why care as much as we do about 2 stroke as an alternative to 4 stroke? Why not just "Get it straight with Honda!" ....And don't start with some crap about "You can program the power curve! It can be either a mop bucket for when grandma rides, or they also have the Rick Johnson CR500 module at the dealer... You just plug it in and... WHAM-O! Exciting power!..." Atari Cartridge power bands are phone sex. A big part of the fun and excitement of riding a 2 stroke has always been the unique topography of the power curve, and the fact that a skilled rider learns his engine and knows how to work with it... Without some electronic mediating committee in the pipeline between you and your vehicle to negotiate rider input and engine response. Fuck that.

Then there's the new cylinder head... WOW! you mean now WE 2 stroke guys would get to have engines with a 10 or 11 inch tall, 6 layer wedding cake of a cylinder sticking up above our cases? Sounds like "AMA MowerCross" the 2 stroke version. Whoa!.. What's next? Will they tilt the weddng cake back 4 degrees, off center to the crankshaft, and put the fuel boiling tank under the seat? And the airbox in the space where the old fuel boiling tank was?  Only one thing's missing... "Unicam Technology";) Well... No thanks, I think what I've got right now is better, and simpler, and more reliable.

What about the EPA and all that crap? Hmmmm.... While it might be nice to be able to go into a dealer and get a new dualsport bike with one of these Eunuch 2 stoke engines in it, I could never really say it would be exciting... What IS exciting to me with regard to the EPA vs 2 Stroke conflict in the USA is the fact that there are so many loopholes allowing us to get REAL 2 STROKES only a handfull of years old if we want them. Gas Gas EC's, KTM200EXC-GS's from England and Singapore, Suzuki RMX250ST's and HondaCRM250's of 3 different types from Japan's domestic market, just to name a few. Actually, it works with ANY KTM of any age because of the way the papers are written, The 200EXC-GS just caters to my preference for volumetric oil injection.

Maybe there are 3 types of engine. The 2 Stroke, the 4 Stroke, and the Eunuch 2 Stroke.

No castor smell... No Crank Case Scavenging... Difficult to recognize with your eyes. Difficult to recognize with your ears... Difficult to recognize with your throttle hand...

We had excellent, vibrant, reliable bikes for a long time and then along came some manufacturers, some stupid motorcycles, and a media blitz and now we find ourselves awash in a sea of crappy, complicated, perfectly boring motorcycles... Now, here comes another wave...

If we want to be able to enjoy riding 2 stroke motocycles, it might be time to stop letting people sell us one stupid idea after another.

Thanks,

Jim  

    

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU!!!

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 2011 ETEC Bombardier engine..
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2010, 03:11:07 PM »
The thing is John some of the guys here who love old bikes wouldn't buy any new bikes anyway.And have said so.
Quote: "that no one involved in selling todays crap".
So to say they wouldn't buy a new new DI bike is bullshit anyway.
Stick to your classics but don't talk crap about something you know nothing about.

Heres a novel thought, instead of rambling on about the good old days how about asking some intelligent questions.
You actually have someone on this site that KNOWS about this technology.
I work on these "new pieces of crap" every day.
It pisses me off when people run down something without knowing anything about it.

Another thing that has always pissed me of is back yard mechanics that know everything.
But i suppose today you can be a EXPERT just by looking it up on the net!
No need to do any courses or study for a few years.

"and i jet my bike a little rich and pour in some extra oil","and run the coldest plug available".

Stupid comments like like are the reason 2 strokes have a bad reputation.
I wonder if Eric Gorr & Mitch Payton tune their bikes by the above theory.
If you are going to run a 2 stroke, TUNE the bloody thing properly!!!

So if anyone has some intellegent questions ,fire away.
If you want to argue about points,condensers and a left side kick start are better piss of to the vintage section.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough