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Offline CCOADY454

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2010, 12:52:48 PM »
What happens at the amateur level if they agree to allow 144/300 for the pros?  It's already equal displacement for us non-pro riders, but there basically isn't a modern two stroke to compete against the 450's yet.  I'm afraid they'll decide to modify those rules again so it matches across the board.  It may work out more to the benefit of the AMA and the manufacturers to get rid of 2 strokes by making the amateur and pro rules the same.  There are far more amateur riders out there, and the equal displacement rule is working to the favor for the 2 strokes at the non-pro level.  I think the "bandage" fix could backfire down to the amateur ranks.

Offline bearorso

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2010, 01:12:38 PM »
Believe what you believe, And I will do so myself.

YZ250s and 250 KTMs Are racing against 250Fs. And they are not wiping out the 4ts. There's an undeniable reality. Raving on about how 2ts will slaughter same capacity 4ts is guaranteed to encourage the powers that be, to keep the rules as they stand now.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both types of ICE engine we are talking about here. The 4ts are not gutless little foo foo bikes anymore - and there is an enormous amount of development yet to come with them. If anything, because 2ts have stood so still, because the rules made it so advantageous for 4ts, 2ts are perilously close to being much like XRs were , in comparison to CRs,for example, years ago. Even with the application of existing tech, used by snow and marine producers, and even more  development of all the various, new ideas for 2ts, I doubt we will ever go back to the domination that 2ts had years ago.

It's a damned sad thing when our most developed 2t is currently represented by the YZ250, and the KTMs we have now.

Just in case people think I might be a 4t 'infiltrator',I love , and , by choice, ride 2ts. I have owned , and still own , quite a few 4ts.

 Anything less than equivalency is a cop out, by any side you favour. Another 25cc will not make a 125 competitive with a 250F, nor will another 50cc make a 250 compete on a level footing with a modern 450,at the highest level, even if it has DFI etc. Mind you, for the average bloke, it would be a great thing, much as a 350 4t will be. But a modern , 350/4002t would be, I feel , the ultimate open classer. And the rules this petition is putting forward, would preclude that 350 / 400 , from being developed and made. By accepting / endorsing non equivalency, you're making it less likely that new technology will be applied to 2ts.

Why equivalency could be too much of a shock to manufacturers is beyond me. I sure as hell don't think anyone is going to pull out of their arse a modern 2t on the advent of equivalency. It will take a while for  them to be developed, just as modern 4ts took a while to take over. After Doug Henry won the nationals, 2ts won the 250s for a few more years, in both MX and SX. World level open class MX owed its earlier open class domination to a man , Smets, more than the bike. The open classers were allowed to go to 650s very early on. World 250s were not dominated instantly by 4ts, even after the handicap was allowed. Pichon and others did well on 250s against 400/450 4ts. Until Everts destroyed all. And all the companies had their 450s. 2ts will not take over instantly. Just as 4ts didn't, despite the huge advantage allowed them. Even the 250Fs were held off for a while by 125s, until nearly all the Japanese companies had 4ts. Am I the only one that remembers Mitch Payton complaining about the "cheater bikes", at least until he had access to 4ts himself ;D

As I said, I admire you fellows passion and belief in what you are signing for with this petition, but it's not what I think should be petitioned for. Equivalency is the petition that needs to be signed, by as many as possible, and then presented to the AMA. Point out that 250 2ts are not slaughtering the 2504ts when they meet , currently, to assuage peoples / companies fears, with a large amount of signatories showing that people want equal capacity racing, and we have just as much chance getting that, as we have of getting bugger all in return by voluntarily proposing rules that will still disadvantage 2ts, probably to the point of extinction.

Equivalency  will encourage development of modern 2ts, which will be better for many riders, in many ways - plus, better for companies when they find there is less rider attrition due to the high costs of 4t racing. They'll sell more bikes, whilst using less raw materials, polluting less (through all points of production and use of the engine) - yes, appeal to number crunchers and environmental concerns - it sure as hell can't hurt our 2t cause. And the cause of Off Road / Road motorcycling in general. That's the way bloody 4ts will be seen off.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 01:50:50 PM by bearorso »

Offline burn1986

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2010, 02:13:41 PM »
I got a call back (message) from Al Ludington yesterday, who said that he wouldn't be able to look at it completely for about a week since the racing season is at hand. He mentioned that he had passed it along to Jeff Canfield (sp?) on the motocross side and stated that it wasn't out of the realm of being able to do, but that he needed to discuss it further. I am getting back with him Monday.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2010, 02:26:10 PM »
The fact of the matter is this.  When equivalency has been proposed, it failed because the manufacturers would not accept it.  Whether they should have reacted the way they did or not is secondary, they simply haven't accepted it whenever it has been proposed.  The goal of this is to give them something they can actually agree to, and then we can talk about equivalency at a future date.  No matter what happens, no matter how many chickens have their head cut off and blood used as face paint in candle-lit ceremony, the AMA is not going to go equal-displacement in the next couple years.

The reason I signed this petition is because I think it will bring about equivalency faster than simply saying all-or-nothing.  And I totally agree that equivalency is the ideal!  But I do not agree that 144/300 has the same chances in front of the AMA as 250/450 at this time.  We have to soften up the beachhead, because we've tried charging in head-first and shouting "Bonsai," and it didn't work.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2010, 02:40:35 PM »
Couple things that people like Bear don't get. I know people, if people wanna believe it or not, who have told me that Honda has invested so much into the 4 strokes, that it's a large part why they can't allow these 2 strokes to come back and dominate. Even if they really wanted to, it is walking  to the window and tossing millions out.  They will not do it, and same with other manufactures.  Second, I also know that a big reason, be it fact or not, is that they don't want a kid coming off a 85cc and going directly to a 250 2 stroke. Thus the reason also of allowing the 125cc class back in the AMs. Even though the 250F is comparable in lap times, it is not comparable on sheer hp and pull.  Lastly, it is also a fact that noise at some point will become a high priority. I'm holding my breath that 2011 will have the Europe standards if not more.  The quieter the 4 strokes get, the slower they get.  At that point, and the point of a possible 350F class instead of the 450F's, 300cc 2 strokes will compete against the 350F, and most likely even the 450F's.  The 144cc would compete against a toned down 250F.  So to think that any of the big companies including KTM want the 4 strokes to get squashed out again is just ihjjhojojknm ....  It won't happen and never will. Money always rules the day.  If you think this is not the case, than feel free to keep on keepin on with cc vs cc.  
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 02:46:59 PM by miedosoracing »
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Offline burn1986

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2010, 02:56:01 PM »
Reply from Al Lud. - I am calling him on Tuesday. You know, all in all, I think this has a good chance of going through. Hopefully, we can keep a good interaction going and follow this thing through to the end.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 02:58:57 PM by burn1986 »

Offline 2smoker

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2010, 02:58:43 PM »
Reply from Al Lud. - I am calling him on Tuesday.

??????? We want something written not some bullshit over the phone!!!
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline scottydog

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2010, 03:27:21 PM »
Hey Burn do you think you could round up the 144 to 150?

It just sounds better and goes with 300 nicely I reckon.

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2010, 03:45:48 PM »
I signed the petition but :
I do agree on alot of bearorso's point's.
Point 1: 2 strokes are not destroying 4's in off road and amature rank's.

In NZ & OZ this year the 250F's still won the titles. But no disrespect to the 2 stroke riders the best rider's and equipment were on 4's.DK was on a standard YZ and having fun. I would like to see a profesional team set up this summer to see how a properly moded 2smoke would go against the factory teams down here.Both Honda & Suzuki are very serious about winning the NZ title.The bikes they use are on par with the AMA bikes. VERY expensive   >:(

I also have a small problem with the 300cc rule proposed.
Only the Euro manufactors make them. None of the jap bikes can be moded to 300cc.It takes more then a bore job to turn a 250 into a proper 300 and the jap manufactors are not going to spend money on developeing one. :(

Will the big 5 be happy allowing the likes of Husky/TM/Maico/Gas Gas/ to race 300's ?
And what about the production rule ? Do any of them make the cut ?

Now i am not against the rule just wondering what the chances are if it likley happening.

The 150 rule is alot easier to do because just about all the 125's can be made into 150's and alot of them offer kits already  :D.But it wont stop kids going from a 85 straight to a 250F.Some will chose to race a 150 but some will not.

Alot of countries have a 125 class now , so there is a good class for the young ones coming up from 85's.
Going from 85's to 250F's is just down right dangerous and stupid. >:(

What are the chances of the ama bringing in a extra 125 class for the 16-19 year old's.It would be well suported and reasonbly economical.It is a great class for honeing racing skills.

I hope some good comes out of the petition but like alot of people we all have different thoughts on what is best.
I wish we could find that magic bullet.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2010, 03:55:54 PM »
Here's one thing I find interesting, and then I'll shut up. Al although has a title of someone who could get things done, is only a spokesperson per say.  It will still be up to MXsports/ProAMA ruling body to vote on this.  I guess the hope is, that Al will take this to them and present it?  I spoke my peace with the guy who use to be in his spot.  Although he agreed with everything most of us say, basically said his hands were tied. I truely hope this goes somewhere.  I do think a 144cc and a 300cc could be very competitive with a fast rider.  Especially when the 4 strokes get toned down. 
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Offline burn1986

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2010, 04:22:34 PM »
The hope with all of this is that it will get passed. Second of all, is that the manufacturers will begin building 2 strokes to match the AMA rule.

I chose 144cc because it is the most widely accepted big-bore for a 125, with 151 being the next bore up. I will talk with them to see if we can get that raised to 150. The reason I chose 300 is because KTM, and TM make a 300 and because this will allow the other 250s to be bored close to this. Most of the bores are like 285, 280, 265, 275. I think Eric Gorr offers a 295 kit for the YZ250.

2smoker - Working on getting something in writing, but I am going to talk to Al first and see where it goes ::)

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2010, 05:41:13 PM »

I spread it around.  I also put it in this video, so hopefully u should get some signatures from it I have almost 400 who watch my crap.

AMA Petition Unequal 2 Stroke Displacement Professional Motocross

Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline offroader

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #57 on: July 30, 2010, 06:23:04 PM »
I agree with some of the stuff being said.I think that these rules will give more privateers a chance at racing pro as they could afford to race a 2t versus a 4t.This would have more riders trying to qualify and that means more money for the sanctioning bodies,track owners vendors etc. as more people at the races will generat more revenue.

It would be great if they allowed bb/stroked jap bikes allowed also.This could help the aftermarket tuners grow some also.Hopefully when this passes tm,gas gas,maico etc. will be homologated to compete.I am sure Maico international could design a debored 320-300 with proper porting etc..

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2010, 08:34:11 PM »
Well, considering the 320 is derived itself from the 250, I don't think they'd have much problem at all making that switch.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the feeling that ever since they came out with their 400 all the way back when the Earth's crust was still molten, Maico have been the grand-daddy masters of taking an existing bike and turning it into something else.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: AMA Petition
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2010, 08:40:24 PM »
Quote
Well, considering the 320 is derived itself from the 250,

The 250, 320, 500, 620 and 685 all have the SAME transmission.

The 250 and 320 share the SAME primary drive ratio.

The 500, 620 and 685 share the SAME primary drive ratio.

Given these, just changing to a 300cc would not really take much more than some tunage.  The biggest thing would be whether the exhaust should change, not sure if 320/250 share same exhaust or not.  The default from Koestler looks like even the same stock Carb jetting.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 08:46:41 PM by opfermanmotors »
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.