Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: burn1986 on July 28, 2010, 11:08:22 AM
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Here is a link to an e-petition that I drew up:
http://www.gopetition.com/petition/38076.html (http://www.gopetition.com/petition/38076.html)
What do ya'll think?
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Sounds ok to me, I signed it :) .
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The only way to make privateers competitive is to get rid of the unfair handicap, And have equal displacement with no mention of two or four stroke!
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My thought on equal displacements is this:
I want them. I fully agree with RupertXs study of this. In dealing with the AMA, I think that they will offer more resistance if presented with equal displacements at this point. If we present them with this small change in the rule, then this will allow more development for KTM, TM, Gas Gas, Husquvarna, etc. and further wedge the 2-stroke into the racing scene once again. Especially, when they start winning.
The only reason I say this is because I believe they would have approved larger-bored 2-strokes in 2005, but voted it down due to one of the member's desire for equal displacements (Jeff Ward indifferently voted against larger bore 2-strokes). This ruling effectively eliminated 2-strokes from racing competitively in the Pro ranks.
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My thought on equal displacements is this:
I want them. I fully agree with RupertXs study of this. In dealing with the AMA, I think that they will offer more resistance if presented with equal displacements at this point. If we present them with this small change in the rule, then this will allow more development for KTM, TM, Gas Gas, Husquvarna, etc. and further wedge the 2-stroke into the racing scene once again. Especially, when they start winning.
The only reason I say this is because I believe they would have approved larger-bored 2-strokes in 2005, but voted it down due to one of the member's desire for equal displacements (Jeff Ward indifferently voted against larger bore 2-strokes). This ruling effectively eliminated 2-strokes from racing competitively in the Pro ranks.
Honestly, up to a 6 months ago, I was firmly stuck in the "It has to be equal displacement" argument. To the point of where if I were at the meeting, I would walk away if it didn't go equal displacement. After speaking to some very smart people about this, I now agree with Burn1986 and Rupert X.
We have to try a compromise to begin with. If a 25cc displacement increase for 125 two-strokes and a 50cc increase for 250 two-strokes were introduced, I truly believe that the scales would tip. Which would allow more Pro racers to compete on two-strokes.
If you think about it, this is what we all want.
My feeling is that the four-strokes are here to stay. Even if it were equal displacement, there are many that prefer the power delivery of them.
We want to ensure that the two-stroke remain a viable option. Taking small steps will help us reach our goal.
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We want to ensure that the two-stroke remain a viable option. Taking small steps will help us reach our goal.
+1
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For me, as I've said before, I don't really look at it as a "save the two-stroke" thing. When you say it like that, it sounds like the same sort of welfare program that brought the four-strokes back in the first place. I say let all the motors compete at equal displacement and let the best (which is defined differently for different people) engine with the best rider win. That's the principled stand, as opposed to the consequential stand. There's nothing holy about the two-stroke that means it must be saved and put on life-support, as much as we like it. If equal displacement were achieved and two-strokes were still losing (remember, that's an IF) would any of you want a handicap in favor of the two-strokes? I certainly hope not. But what we have to realize is that to the other side, they see the current situation as perfectly natural, and asking for a reduction of their handicap sounds like they're being handicapped against! No wonder there's so much opposition.
Anyway, philosophical ramblings aside, this petition is agitating for something that is closer to the ideal, so of course I signed it. A small handicap is better than a large one.
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I watched the last AMA race and some 250f riders had better laptimes than the 450f during practice... so why the hell we cannot go compete with a 250cc two stroke with the 250f?????????????? This is so corrupted.. All we need is a guy like Mike aboard the two50 project on the podium.. So the whole 4 stroke industry look bad .. What they gonna be their arguments?????? We need to reverse the situation.. a la Doug Henry back then.
This is when everything started..
1997 Las Vegas Supercross 1st 4-stroke win ! PART 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1GahoKHU6c#ws)
1997 Las Vegas Supercross 1st 4-stroke win ! PART 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujy2SRlabiw&feature=related#ws)
1997 Las Vegas Supercross 1st 4-stroke win ! PART 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=230y576sL7E&feature=related#ws)
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so why the hell we cannot go compete with a 250cc two stroke with the 250f?
A great question, without an answer.
As I mentioned, we can beat out heads against the wall, scream, yell, fight, cry... no matter what, someone else makes the rules.
What if we could "sneak" in the back door and accomplish the same thing?
I signed the petition.
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I signed it........And John your scarin me with that "sneak in the backdoor" thing :o :P :P
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signed it... ;D
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DONE ;D
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Done deal! Bring our sport back!
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I still think that if we could somehow manage to start one series and really get behind it, we could seriously damage them. Competition is what will lead anyone to better serve the needs of the consumer, and in this case the consumers are the riders, supporters, and fans of motorcycle sport. Just look at what happened with AHRMA in the Northwest. Dick Mann refused to satisfy the needs of the riders, and stuck pig-headedly to "vintage" (meaning pre-1974!) bikes into his organization, and then the evo (post-1974 twin-shock) had no series to ride in. Unfortunately for Dick, most of the vintage riders and evo riders are the same people, with two bikes in the truck! So as AHRMA started to wither and lose tracks, alternate series' came up, and now the Northwest has vintage (and evo) races every month of the year, on a variety of fun and appropriate tracks.
If we can do on the national pro level what was done on the Pacific Northwest vintage scene, I believe victory is assured. The question is, can we do it? Can we do one series and stick with it, and not get divided? Can we get the sponsors, and the riders, and everything? It's impossible to tell before it's done. But just imagine sticking it to the man with privateer-friendly, equal-displacement racing. And for some sprinkles on the top, how about we get rid of that "5 years old (or whatever it is) or newer" rule, to keep the factories on their toes and actually improving the bikes. And if they fail at that, some really fast privateer on a Microblued, disc-braked, re-suspended '78 RM125 might just rattle a few cages. :D
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I signed also.
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Happily signed.
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I was the 195 signer. :P
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I was signer 200! ;D
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Isn't this something? Wow, I never would have guessed that this would take off like it has. Even the AMA rep seems somewhat agreeable to considering this. Here's his reply:
"Hi Mark,
I've passed this on to the mx series manager. It sounds like your group must have some KTM interest as they are the only ones building two strokes in that size range. Otherwise we will have to allow boring and stroking to come up with those numbers. We will take it under advisement and discuss the merits. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
We are right in the meat of our racing activity for the 2010 season so we won't be able to put it on the front burner. I hope you understand. I will stay in touch though. Thanks again."
Al Ludington
Technical Director
AMA Pro Racing
Please pass the petition along to others - forums, blogs, facebook, twitter, etc. I'm sure if the AMA sees the number of people who have agreed to this, that they will actually be motivated to make the change!
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Mark, Awesome job! Thank you!!
I'm currently working on an article to show that there are 144 and 300 race machines available for this class. Since I will be away, either PM Coop or post your suggestions for machines that should be included in an article.
The point of the article is to show that machines are available, even if you have to do some machine work!
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Just a thought... do you think if we could get the AMA to approve this rule, that MI could be convinced to build a Maico 300???
Would anyone besides me like to see that??
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Just need a thicker sleeve in a 320, but isn't there the 400 production bike rule?
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They bent that rule for Suzuki this year, but I doubt they would for Husky, Maico, or TM. Another petition????
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signed. ;D I will be linking this to as many sites as possible.
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Done :D
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isn't there the 400 production bike rule?
This is very interesting... from the info I have heard, this rule has been changed and lowered considerably. I have not been able to find out what the exact number is, but I believe if any of the smaller manufacturers are truly interested in racing, I think something might be able to be done....
First things first though... let's help burn1986 get this spread to all corners of the world to get thousands of signatures!
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Man, I'm tryin to get this to some European websites, but I cannot freakin read these things. Anyone know how to read French and Italian, expecially at pistedellemarche.com. thanks
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signed it...
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Man, I'm tryin to get this to some European websites, but I cannot freakin read these things. Anyone know how to read French and Italian, expecially at pistedellemarche.com. thanks
I speak French.. pistedellemarche.com is Spanish.. :-[
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Isn't this something? Wow, I never would have guessed that this would take off like it has. Even the AMA rep seems somewhat agreeable to considering this. Here's his reply:
"Hi Mark,
I've passed this on to the mx series manager. It sounds like your group must have some KTM interest as they are the only ones building two strokes in that size range. Otherwise we will have to allow boring and stroking to come up with those numbers. We will take it under advisement and discuss the merits. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
We are right in the meat of our racing activity for the 2010 season so we won't be able to put it on the front burner. I hope you understand. I will stay in touch though. Thanks again."
Al Ludington
Technical Director
AMA Pro Racing
Please pass the petition along to others - forums, blogs, facebook, twitter, etc. I'm sure if the AMA sees the number of people who have agreed to this, that they will actually be motivated to make the change!
Al cannot do much..Most of his job has to do with the Road series.. Cannot wait to see the answer from the other guy lol . WE don't have KTM interest. We have two stroke interest... ??? ??? ???
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Yeah I just had to kind of brush his comment off. I mentioned the other current brands with 144s - TM, Husqvarna, and Yamaha Australia (GYTR-YZ144). Do you know who the other guy is that he mentioned? Thanks
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Yeah I just had to kind of brush his comment off. I mentioned the other current brands with 144s - TM, Husqvarna, and Yamaha Australia (GYTR-YZ144). Do you know who the other guy is that he mentioned? Thanks
Nope, We will soon.. Did you forward this also to the manufacturers??? Get the drama going.. !!!
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Man, I'm tryin to get this to some European websites, but I cannot freakin read these things. Anyone know how to read French and Italian, expecially at pistedellemarche.com. thanks
I speak French.. pistedellemarche.com is Spanish.. :-[
Spanish and Italian is very close.... that web site is Italian.
The easy way to read those sites is to use Google Translator
http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT# (http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#)
The same goes for writing something, you can type out what you want to say, and then translate it using the software. Is it perfect? Hell no!! But in most cases they will understand you. In your case I would suggest that you write it in English and ask a member of the site to translate it for you.
Many readers from other countries come to this site, to read it they use a translating software like the Google one.
As for Al, he will guide you to the people you need to speak with, but be aware, if this gets big and a lot of signatures, the people that can make changes will see it at some point!!
For now I say concentrate on spreading the word and getting as many signatures as possible. A few thousand will get the attention that this type of change will require. But remember the more, the better.
Please continue to spread the petition to everyone you know.
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Awesome work burn! I applaud your efforts! :D
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Is anyone going to be at Loretta Lynns this weekend? We need to get the word out there. I am calling them today.
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In all conscience, I could never sign that petition.
I believe in capacity equivalency, totally. To have anything less than that is not good enough.
Little steps, as in being 'allowed' an extra 25cc and 50cc in the 250 and 450 class is still a joke. It actually would slow down / have more potential to stop the advent of capacity equivalency. It would enable the powers that be to say "look, we've done something for you already, now piss off ".
And what do you thnk would happen to classes that have finally been allowed parity? I've got the feeling that they would be rolled back to this 'new' ruling. So , go back from 250 to 250 in AMA non Pro racing, back from 250 vs 250 in OZ and NZ Pro racing, and other places that have finally allowed equivalency. WMX allows equivalency , this year. These series, plus GNCC, DCs baby - the first high level series in the US to have 250 vs 250, in the XC2 class - show The Fact That All These Changes Have Not Led To Domination Of The 4ts, By 2ts. That IS THE best recommendation for equivalency we've had.
Think about it people. No , REALLY think about it.
Your talking appeasement, and risk loosing the foot in the door for full equivalency, that we have started to get closer to. What we are much more likely to get from this, is a loss of what has been gained.
I appreciate the thoughts behind this, but I will Never support this , as it is misguided and could put the potential brighter future for 2ts , from ever appearing.
As I've written before , and few people have seemed to catch on up to - I feel DCs comments about the 250 vs 250 being unfair was him purely having a dig at those that opposed equivalency - being sarcastic and basically labeling those who opposed equivalency as being gutless and supporting a bad rule, that is no longer needed. His organisations change for the XC2 rules was / is a perfect way of showing how pathetic and unfounded the fears of the anti equivalency backers are. Pointing to that, and other series / organizations changes as not being the death knell of their beloved 4ts, is the best way of having equivalency brought across the board.
So , once again, there is No Way I could support such a petition as this. It should be a petition for equivalency, no more , no less.
And before you spit the dummy at me, read and re-read what I have written, and think a bit about it.
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We have thought about it bearorso. The problem is many believe, including the AMA, that equal CC's will NEVER happen!
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And this petition is likely to ensure that. The non pro side of racing is where the sales actually are, having people being able to compete with equal capacity bikes, with no disadvantage, is what will sell 2ts. It Has Already Happened, at the club and some Pro levels. An extra 25cc and 50cc will not help our cause, and will probably loose what equivalency we have.
I'm pretty damned sure that the vast majority of riders who have gone back to 2 strokes, when they have been finally able to compete with the same capacity bikes as the 4ts, would not be happy about having to go back to a 144/150.
I know I sure as hell would not be contemplating returning to racing, as I am doing so now, to go up against riders on 250 4ts, if I was restricted to a 150.
Having rules that apply equally , across all classes and levels of racing, is a much more rational thing for organisations to contemplate - and getting those small capacity increases, for AMA Pro Racing, and FIM, will , inevitably, loose the equivalency that has been gained.
It's called shooting yourself in the foot, to keep the analogy simple.
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"and risk loosing the foot in the door for full equivalency"
What foot do you have in the door???? Just a honest question.
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The Fact That All These Changes Have Not Led To Domination Of The 4ts, By 2ts. That IS THE best recommendation for equivalency we've had.
I think that's the foot he had in mind?
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Meido, read my post - see the examples of equivalency given. It's written in a simple, straight forward style, that I don't think is hard to follow :D.
Many racing organisations / clubs/ tracks have dropped the 4t handicap. Have you been hiding in a cave? There is much more to be lost, than gained, by appeasing those that want to keep high level racings incredibly biased 4t / 2t status quo, by demanding anything less than equivalency.
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I don't know if I buy your principle there. I don't see any reason for those organizations, who have equivalency and are doing just fine, to then take a step backward and go to formula 144 (or whatever you want to call it.) If what happened in the category of Pro MX really had that much of an influence that everyone else follows that lead, it would be shown by WMX, Amateur MX, and GNCC being 125 vs 250F, wouldn't it?
Also, it seems to be that one of the biggest, if not THE biggest factors that's blocking equivalency right now is two-stroke sales and availability. When DC was asked about it, he said it would benefit Yamaha and KTM and not the others. What this compromise does is allow the two-strokes to be more competitive and put incentive on Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Honda to bring back their two-strokes. I'm not saying they will, especially in Honda's case, but I wouldn't be surprised if this rule change as proposed in the petition were enough to bring back the RM, or even the KX. It might also give KTM and incentive to put more research dollars into their little direct-injection thing, now that their super-competitive 150SX is legal. With more two-strokes participating, the factories may be much more inclined to accept equivalency in the future, as this middle-step gives them time to adjust and shift things around, without just getting completely wiped out by the YZ250 and 250SX within the first ten minutes. That's what they're afraid of.
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I can't believe I am about to type this...but I agree with JETZ. :D
I think banging our head against the wall and screaming "Equal displacement or nothing!!!" will be what hurts two strokes more than 144/300. I think at this stage in the game, 144/300 will happen MUCH sooner than they would go for cc equivalence.
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Truthfully speaking, what are the chances the rules will even make it to 144 / 300 cc? I signed it, but really, I don't even see that happening unfortunately.
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I can't believe I am about to type this...but I agree with JETZ.
I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair.
But the way I see it, the 144/300 isn't just a smaller improvement that can be achieved sooner (yes, it is that as well) but I think it's a good stepping-stone to full equivalency. The reason that the factories are so much against 1:1 displacement right now is the fact that it's very sudden. They (meaning Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki) are left with only three options when a 1:1 proposal comes up. They can bring back their old two-strokes and just pretend the last decade never happened, which would be very awkward to explain. They can lay down some serious money and try and make a four-stroke that can compete on an equal field (remember when Honda tried that in MotoGP... with oval pistons... that failed) or they can just shoot down the proposal. So far, we've seen that they're choosing to shoot down the proposal. Now, the idea behind 144/300 is that because it's a much smaller change, it will still be quite possible to win on four-strokes. The factories can bring things back quietly and slowly, without having to scramble around and look like idiots. Assuming that this proposal is accepted (which is not a given, as Opferman pointed out!) I think that the affect it will have on the 2T/4T sales and production as well as public perception, will be a massive foot in the door for equivalency. And again, as I've said, I don't buy the premise that it will cause the other classes and organizations to switch from 1:1, though of course, nobody can know with certainty until it's been done.
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What happens at the amateur level if they agree to allow 144/300 for the pros? It's already equal displacement for us non-pro riders, but there basically isn't a modern two stroke to compete against the 450's yet. I'm afraid they'll decide to modify those rules again so it matches across the board. It may work out more to the benefit of the AMA and the manufacturers to get rid of 2 strokes by making the amateur and pro rules the same. There are far more amateur riders out there, and the equal displacement rule is working to the favor for the 2 strokes at the non-pro level. I think the "bandage" fix could backfire down to the amateur ranks.
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Believe what you believe, And I will do so myself.
YZ250s and 250 KTMs Are racing against 250Fs. And they are not wiping out the 4ts. There's an undeniable reality. Raving on about how 2ts will slaughter same capacity 4ts is guaranteed to encourage the powers that be, to keep the rules as they stand now.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both types of ICE engine we are talking about here. The 4ts are not gutless little foo foo bikes anymore - and there is an enormous amount of development yet to come with them. If anything, because 2ts have stood so still, because the rules made it so advantageous for 4ts, 2ts are perilously close to being much like XRs were , in comparison to CRs,for example, years ago. Even with the application of existing tech, used by snow and marine producers, and even more development of all the various, new ideas for 2ts, I doubt we will ever go back to the domination that 2ts had years ago.
It's a damned sad thing when our most developed 2t is currently represented by the YZ250, and the KTMs we have now.
Just in case people think I might be a 4t 'infiltrator',I love , and , by choice, ride 2ts. I have owned , and still own , quite a few 4ts.
Anything less than equivalency is a cop out, by any side you favour. Another 25cc will not make a 125 competitive with a 250F, nor will another 50cc make a 250 compete on a level footing with a modern 450,at the highest level, even if it has DFI etc. Mind you, for the average bloke, it would be a great thing, much as a 350 4t will be. But a modern , 350/4002t would be, I feel , the ultimate open classer. And the rules this petition is putting forward, would preclude that 350 / 400 , from being developed and made. By accepting / endorsing non equivalency, you're making it less likely that new technology will be applied to 2ts.
Why equivalency could be too much of a shock to manufacturers is beyond me. I sure as hell don't think anyone is going to pull out of their arse a modern 2t on the advent of equivalency. It will take a while for them to be developed, just as modern 4ts took a while to take over. After Doug Henry won the nationals, 2ts won the 250s for a few more years, in both MX and SX. World level open class MX owed its earlier open class domination to a man , Smets, more than the bike. The open classers were allowed to go to 650s very early on. World 250s were not dominated instantly by 4ts, even after the handicap was allowed. Pichon and others did well on 250s against 400/450 4ts. Until Everts destroyed all. And all the companies had their 450s. 2ts will not take over instantly. Just as 4ts didn't, despite the huge advantage allowed them. Even the 250Fs were held off for a while by 125s, until nearly all the Japanese companies had 4ts. Am I the only one that remembers Mitch Payton complaining about the "cheater bikes", at least until he had access to 4ts himself ;D
As I said, I admire you fellows passion and belief in what you are signing for with this petition, but it's not what I think should be petitioned for. Equivalency is the petition that needs to be signed, by as many as possible, and then presented to the AMA. Point out that 250 2ts are not slaughtering the 2504ts when they meet , currently, to assuage peoples / companies fears, with a large amount of signatories showing that people want equal capacity racing, and we have just as much chance getting that, as we have of getting bugger all in return by voluntarily proposing rules that will still disadvantage 2ts, probably to the point of extinction.
Equivalency will encourage development of modern 2ts, which will be better for many riders, in many ways - plus, better for companies when they find there is less rider attrition due to the high costs of 4t racing. They'll sell more bikes, whilst using less raw materials, polluting less (through all points of production and use of the engine) - yes, appeal to number crunchers and environmental concerns - it sure as hell can't hurt our 2t cause. And the cause of Off Road / Road motorcycling in general. That's the way bloody 4ts will be seen off.
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I got a call back (message) from Al Ludington yesterday, who said that he wouldn't be able to look at it completely for about a week since the racing season is at hand. He mentioned that he had passed it along to Jeff Canfield (sp?) on the motocross side and stated that it wasn't out of the realm of being able to do, but that he needed to discuss it further. I am getting back with him Monday.
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The fact of the matter is this. When equivalency has been proposed, it failed because the manufacturers would not accept it. Whether they should have reacted the way they did or not is secondary, they simply haven't accepted it whenever it has been proposed. The goal of this is to give them something they can actually agree to, and then we can talk about equivalency at a future date. No matter what happens, no matter how many chickens have their head cut off and blood used as face paint in candle-lit ceremony, the AMA is not going to go equal-displacement in the next couple years.
The reason I signed this petition is because I think it will bring about equivalency faster than simply saying all-or-nothing. And I totally agree that equivalency is the ideal! But I do not agree that 144/300 has the same chances in front of the AMA as 250/450 at this time. We have to soften up the beachhead, because we've tried charging in head-first and shouting "Bonsai," and it didn't work.
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Couple things that people like Bear don't get. I know people, if people wanna believe it or not, who have told me that Honda has invested so much into the 4 strokes, that it's a large part why they can't allow these 2 strokes to come back and dominate. Even if they really wanted to, it is walking to the window and tossing millions out. They will not do it, and same with other manufactures. Second, I also know that a big reason, be it fact or not, is that they don't want a kid coming off a 85cc and going directly to a 250 2 stroke. Thus the reason also of allowing the 125cc class back in the AMs. Even though the 250F is comparable in lap times, it is not comparable on sheer hp and pull. Lastly, it is also a fact that noise at some point will become a high priority. I'm holding my breath that 2011 will have the Europe standards if not more. The quieter the 4 strokes get, the slower they get. At that point, and the point of a possible 350F class instead of the 450F's, 300cc 2 strokes will compete against the 350F, and most likely even the 450F's. The 144cc would compete against a toned down 250F. So to think that any of the big companies including KTM want the 4 strokes to get squashed out again is just ihjjhojojknm .... It won't happen and never will. Money always rules the day. If you think this is not the case, than feel free to keep on keepin on with cc vs cc.
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Reply from Al Lud. - I am calling him on Tuesday. You know, all in all, I think this has a good chance of going through. Hopefully, we can keep a good interaction going and follow this thing through to the end.
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Reply from Al Lud. - I am calling him on Tuesday.
??????? We want something written not some bullshit over the phone!!!
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Hey Burn do you think you could round up the 144 to 150?
It just sounds better and goes with 300 nicely I reckon.
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I signed the petition but :
I do agree on alot of bearorso's point's.
Point 1: 2 strokes are not destroying 4's in off road and amature rank's.
In NZ & OZ this year the 250F's still won the titles. But no disrespect to the 2 stroke riders the best rider's and equipment were on 4's.DK was on a standard YZ and having fun. I would like to see a profesional team set up this summer to see how a properly moded 2smoke would go against the factory teams down here.Both Honda & Suzuki are very serious about winning the NZ title.The bikes they use are on par with the AMA bikes. VERY expensive >:(
I also have a small problem with the 300cc rule proposed.
Only the Euro manufactors make them. None of the jap bikes can be moded to 300cc.It takes more then a bore job to turn a 250 into a proper 300 and the jap manufactors are not going to spend money on developeing one. :(
Will the big 5 be happy allowing the likes of Husky/TM/Maico/Gas Gas/ to race 300's ?
And what about the production rule ? Do any of them make the cut ?
Now i am not against the rule just wondering what the chances are if it likley happening.
The 150 rule is alot easier to do because just about all the 125's can be made into 150's and alot of them offer kits already :D.But it wont stop kids going from a 85 straight to a 250F.Some will chose to race a 150 but some will not.
Alot of countries have a 125 class now , so there is a good class for the young ones coming up from 85's.
Going from 85's to 250F's is just down right dangerous and stupid. >:(
What are the chances of the ama bringing in a extra 125 class for the 16-19 year old's.It would be well suported and reasonbly economical.It is a great class for honeing racing skills.
I hope some good comes out of the petition but like alot of people we all have different thoughts on what is best.
I wish we could find that magic bullet.
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Here's one thing I find interesting, and then I'll shut up. Al although has a title of someone who could get things done, is only a spokesperson per say. It will still be up to MXsports/ProAMA ruling body to vote on this. I guess the hope is, that Al will take this to them and present it? I spoke my peace with the guy who use to be in his spot. Although he agreed with everything most of us say, basically said his hands were tied. I truely hope this goes somewhere. I do think a 144cc and a 300cc could be very competitive with a fast rider. Especially when the 4 strokes get toned down.
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The hope with all of this is that it will get passed. Second of all, is that the manufacturers will begin building 2 strokes to match the AMA rule.
I chose 144cc because it is the most widely accepted big-bore for a 125, with 151 being the next bore up. I will talk with them to see if we can get that raised to 150. The reason I chose 300 is because KTM, and TM make a 300 and because this will allow the other 250s to be bored close to this. Most of the bores are like 285, 280, 265, 275. I think Eric Gorr offers a 295 kit for the YZ250.
2smoker - Working on getting something in writing, but I am going to talk to Al first and see where it goes ::)
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I spread it around. I also put it in this video, so hopefully u should get some signatures from it I have almost 400 who watch my crap.
AMA Petition Unequal 2 Stroke Displacement Professional Motocross (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib_iXy1faRo#)
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I agree with some of the stuff being said.I think that these rules will give more privateers a chance at racing pro as they could afford to race a 2t versus a 4t.This would have more riders trying to qualify and that means more money for the sanctioning bodies,track owners vendors etc. as more people at the races will generat more revenue.
It would be great if they allowed bb/stroked jap bikes allowed also.This could help the aftermarket tuners grow some also.Hopefully when this passes tm,gas gas,maico etc. will be homologated to compete.I am sure Maico international could design a debored 320-300 with proper porting etc..
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Well, considering the 320 is derived itself from the 250, I don't think they'd have much problem at all making that switch. Correct me if I'm wrong but I get the feeling that ever since they came out with their 400 all the way back when the Earth's crust was still molten, Maico have been the grand-daddy masters of taking an existing bike and turning it into something else.
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Well, considering the 320 is derived itself from the 250,
The 250, 320, 500, 620 and 685 all have the SAME transmission.
The 250 and 320 share the SAME primary drive ratio.
The 500, 620 and 685 share the SAME primary drive ratio.
Given these, just changing to a 300cc would not really take much more than some tunage. The biggest thing would be whether the exhaust should change, not sure if 320/250 share same exhaust or not. The default from Koestler looks like even the same stock Carb jetting.
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The 250 and 320 have the same stroke, 70mm.
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If the riders were not scared and they started a riders union years ago, they could,ve stopped the 4-st. take over. I know guys that drove for the mx factories, they all quit and go to nascar. Because it,s union everybody make more money. There,s no way Doug Henry would have raced the 400f in 1997, if there was a riders union. At the nationals if they dropped the womens class and had a 125 class with no age limit, would be smart. Nothing against women, but a top 5 girl in a national, is dead last in a local a class race. Back when it was all 2-st. at the nationals, the 250 class just cruised the last 10 minutes,there pace dropped way off, if there was a close battle they stayed on it, but that was rare. The top 25 in the 125 class stayed on it to the finish, 125,s better racing, everyones favorite class to watch.
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Yep, I'll agree with that, the 125s were badness. RC, Cooper, Henry, Lamson, Bradshaw, Stewart, Omara made it happen on the tiddlers.
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I totally agree with the spirit of bearoso's argument. i can't properly express my disgust of having to grant the pathetic 4 strokes a handicap. Yes PATHETIC, because we would not be having this conversation if 4 strokes were forced to go head to head with 2 strokes. I do respect that 4 strokes are not the slugs they used to be. But in fair competition, the top riders on 2 strokes versus the top riders on 4 strokes would be a rout. Don't believe me? Pit a KTM150SX engine against a Honda CRF150R engine and let me know the results
With that said, i signed the petition. Because at this point, unless you're living under a rock, the AMA and the manufacturers have made it clear THEY DON'T WANT 2 STROKES. So do we allow the 2 strokes to be forced into extinction and just walk away with the smug satisfaction that we know 2 stroke are superior? Or do we continue to fight the good fight, advancing a little bit at a time, biting our tongues until a new generation of thinking takes over the AMA? Yeah, i signed it. As desperate and sad as it sounds, i'll take what i can get
Chris
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Sorry to chime in again. ;D If only the AMA rules wouldn't have been changed in the 90's for Husky's, KTM's etc. Then we would have fair rules still. The AMA had chosen 360cc 4 strokes vs 250 2 strokes back in the early 70's or late 60's. If that would have remained, we would still not be cc for cc but would be in most peoples minds equal still. cc vs cc would never happen, no matter what, even if we went back to the 70's rules.
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I totally agree with the spirit of bearoso's argument. i can't properly express my disgust of having to grant the pathetic 4 strokes a handicap. Yes PATHETIC, because we would not be having this conversation if 4 strokes were forced to go head to head with 2 strokes. I do respect that 4 strokes are not the slugs they used to be. But in fair competition, the top riders on 2 strokes versus the top riders on 4 strokes would be a rout. Don't believe me? Pit a KTM150SX engine against a Honda CRF150R engine and let me know the results
With that said, i signed the petition. Because at this point, unless you're living under a rock, the AMA and the manufacturers have made it clear THEY DON'T WANT 2 STROKES. So do we allow the 2 strokes to be forced into extinction and just walk away with the smug satisfaction that we know 2 stroke are superior? Or do we continue to fight the good fight, advancing a little bit at a time, biting our tongues until a new generation of thinking takes over the AMA? Yeah, i signed it. As desperate and sad as it sounds, i'll take what i can get
Chris
I think you've hit the nail on the head at how we all feel.
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I enthusiatically signed the petition!!! The AMA has made their point that equal displacement will not happen...hell, their wallets depend on it. Maybe a compromise as suggested in the petition is the answer...for now...at least we stand to get a "foot" in the door!!!
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I spread it around. I also put it in this video, so hopefully u should get some signatures from it I have almost 400 who watch my crap.
AMA Petition Unequal 2 Stroke Displacement Professional Motocross (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib_iXy1faRo#)
Hey Opferman, thanks for the video. That bike runs perfect. Thanks for the help. Hopefully this will spark not only two strokes but nationals and racing as well, expecially if they start winning.
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Is their any way we can get motocrossactionmag.com to promote this petition. MXA are supporters of two strokes so i think they would be willing to put it up on their site. We need to try and contact a lot of the big dirt bike websites and try and get them to promote this petion on their site.
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Good idea. John, quick, to the stroke cave!!
Woah, that didn't sound right.
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Meido, I understand a lot more than you , it appears.
Noise - yes - make a real world Db ruling, and a 2t will easily pass it - a 4t will find it bloody hard to get down to it, without stuffing the power up. But, if a company solved that, more power to them - bad pun intended.
85 to 250f too much - umm, yes - that's why I've advocated 125 racing ( make it 150, so Honda can race........as I've written many times), 250, and Open Class (with the various interpretations of open, to be considered).
Honda Is the 4 stroke company - always have been , always will be. Anyone with a bit of knowledge knows that. Let them continue with that . There's plenty to come from 4ts, but they will just get more complicated, and expensive. Just as modern 2ts, as they are developed, will become - but the scales will always tilt to the 2t, with weight, simplicity, power and torque, cost in $$$$, and pollution (both of production and use, with the giant leaps forward that modern 2ts show).
Real world results that are provable, should be used to get rid of non -equivalency - 2ts, as I and others have noted - have not destroyed the 4ts, nor "embarrassed" them. Sprouting on about how 2ts will destroy 4t at equal displacement doesn't help our cause. As I've written , no ones going to pull a modern 2t out of their arse the minute equivalency becomes across the board. It will take a few seasons to rectify the current, rule created 2t / 4t imbalance. But it will happen. Given equivalency.
Appeasement never works. I think there's a heck of a Stockholm Syndrome going on within some of our 2t ranks.
Once again, I admire peoples enthusiasm and belief in this 144 /300 request, but I feel it is entirely misplaced. We'd be better off, petitioning for what really should happen - Equivalency. It's got just as much chance as being granted as the 144/300 begging has. With a chance of correcting our sports problems. 144/300, will not help at all, and , I fear, really help put the final nail in the coffin for 2ts.
Simply put, a petition should be for equivalency.
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Here are our rules. Pretty simple and clear :)
http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2010_MoMS_Appendix_D.pdf (http://www.mnz.co.nz/download/2010_MoMS_Appendix_D.pdf)
You yanks need to get your act together :P
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If, as you say, equivalency has the same chance of success as 144/300 at this point in time, then we should just give up on both. Experience from the past has shown us that the AMA is not prepared to do that. This isn't exactly the first time someone has tried to change the displacement rule.
If this petition fails to warrant a response from the AMA, then I think it would be time to take another crack and building up some sponsors and making an alternate racing series. And, if we're going to try and do that right, we need to pull a complete 180 from everything the AMA does that pisses riders off. Things like the unfair displacement rules that skew things in favor of four-strokes, unfair production minimums that keep out smaller manufacturers, treating the race as a "show" and yelling at privateers when they get in the way of the big TV stars, and an endless web of indecipherable bureaucratic nonsense in the rulebook. And, although this was a long time ago, the AMA really dropped the ball on the Phantom Duck issue, even when they were legally in the right. If we make our own organization, it should be run by riders, and for riders. That's what made Dirt Bike Magazine great during its glory years, that's what brought the Hammer and Tongs vintage circuit into the the top spot in the Pacific NW, and I think it can work for us if the AMA continues to let the motocross community down.
Sorry for the rant, but there was a soap box and a megaphone sitting right there!
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I just posted up a link to the petition on every one of my videos (involving a real life dirt bike)
Youtube.com/MxRider721 (http://Youtube.com/MxRider721)
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I just posted up a link to the petition on every one of my videos (involving a real life dirt bike)
Youtube.com/MxRider721 (http://Youtube.com/MxRider721)
lol A REAL LIFE DIRT BIKE!!!!!!!!!!! Good one!! ;D
Yosemitebear Mountain Giant Double Rainbow 1-8-10 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQSNhk5ICTI&feature=related#)
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Double rainbow guy = me when I get my yz 144 up and running :P
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That's about how excited I felt when I first cracked the power on the 390 on a hill. I was expecting it to easily lug its way up like my 250 would - did somebody call for Captain Roost?!
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...It's got just as much chance as being granted as the 144/300 begging has.
This I totally disagree with. The AMA has said numerous times equivalent CC's will NOT happen anytime soon, but on the other hand they have said they are willing to consider the 144/300 rule change. So honestly, why do you think equivalency has the same chance of passing?
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Double rainbow guy = me when I get my yz 144 up and running :P
LOL!!! ;D
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Hey Opferman, thanks for the video. That bike runs perfect. Thanks for the help. Hopefully this will spark not only two strokes but nationals and racing as well, expecially if they start winning.
No problem, on vacation now so just used a quick movie editor to overlay text on some footage of my friend's bike. Looks like a few people I know have signed it at least :)
BTW, here's some pictures of the bike in the video from last year.
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Suzuki/1978RM400/bike2.jpg)
(http://www.maicowerk.com/Images/Suzuki/1978RM400/bike3.jpg)
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So this is the bike that you restored. Pretty awesome. Man, how fun would it be to have a modern 400cc 2-stroke? Do you remember the KTM 400?
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I've also posted this petition link on www.pistedellemarche.com (http://www.pistedellemarche.com) translated in Italian. This is the factory mechanic guy with the 96 & 06 CR250s that were in perfect condition. Maybe he can spread the word.
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Actually that one is my friends' 78 RM400. The late 70s everyone was making a 400, then the early 80s they were making 500's. You started out in 76 with 300's like RM370 and Maico 400's, then everyone was pushing 400, every year someone would bore out a little further, 440, 450, 465, 480, 490, 495, 500!
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don't forget 501 :D
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The way I heard the story, everyone was running between 350 and 450 (with the exception of the 501, of course) for a long time, with nobody really going into 450 territory for the longest time except Maico with their 450 (also called 440 in later years, but they were always 438cc) until '80 when the YZ465 hit the scene. This was a big deal because until that time, the 450 Maico was the holeshot king and then they saw this new Yamaha as a direct challenge. So they got a little mad and drank a little beer in the German tradition and pulled out the 490, and the same year KTM brought out the 495. Those two stood alone as the near-as-makes-no-difference-500s in a sea of RM400s, CR450s, and YZ465s and the like. Then, the next year it was obvious everyone else had a displacement crisis because that's when the big boys came out to play, including the CR480 and YZ490. So it wasn't a linear progression as you described, it was really more of a jolt that brought everyone up in the course of a year or two.
This is all massively off-topic of course. But hey, I didn't start it!
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This is all massively off-topic of course. But hey, I didn't start it! :o >:(
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I don't think it's that far off. If this rule does go into effect then it's always possible that other manufacturers will start producing them. You know how prideful the Japs are.
PS - 990 and counting. We're almost at 1000!
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992
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I didn't pay attention to what number I was until other people started posting theirs. Then I realized that I was the 4th person to sign. Wow! I even beat John to the party!
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1003 signatures now I see.
Oh yeah, I beat you JETZ, I'm #2 ;)
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So far 1007 people have signed. How many do we actually need for this new rule to pass.
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I would like to get at least 2000. I'm working on an update for my conversation with AMA today, which was even more positive and enthusiastic than my initial emails.
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Awesome. I have been telling everyone I know. My wife and our 16 year old nephew that lives with us signed it also.
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<--- #1018
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Badness!
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Has anyone tried to send an email or contact the powers at be at KTM, TM or other manufacturers making similar cc bikes,
to let them know that this petition is being done in an attempt to revise/change the current rule.
What I'm thinking is, both manufacturers listed in John's article on the main page, would benefit from the possibility of
more of their bikes being able/allowed to be raced on the pro level, when this rule is revised/passed.
Perhaps their knowledge of this would help these manufacturers to positively influence this rule revision/change.
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Man, I've contacted them through their website contact form, but I haven't heard anything back from TM or KTM. I may have to call them. I'll bet if they had several of us doing it then they would respond. I'll try tomorrow. If we flood them with it then we may see some headway.
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Emails sent to both TM and KTM. Thanks for the idea TTRR.
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Thanks Coop.
Burn, man your on top of things, and I am wishing you the energy to keep it up !
I started to email KTM while at work today, similar to the fashion Burn did, but then my boss came walking by :o
and I had to destroy the evidence. :-X
I have looked at KTM's recently in interest of purchasing and loved their bikes, I will be glad to make a very good effort to contact them about all
of this. keep on keeping the faith 2t brothers :D
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Maicoman009 just signed the petition also and I just wanted to tell burn1986 "THANKYOU" for steppin' up! :)
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No Prob, brotha, Thanks!
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#1070- I signed it last night. 8)
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i signed it #133. dirt rider has it on their website also.
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i signed it #133. dirt rider has it on their website also.
Dirt rider has it on their web site!? Holy, no wonder this is taking off.
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When I suggested a petition in burn's first post about getting 144 approved I didn't realize two things:
1) That he is so driven and motivated
2) That the petition would take off like it has.
We are lucky to have a guy like burn around.
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Here is the link that helfrick15205 mentioned about over at dirt rider:
http://blogs.dirtrider.com/6671560/editorial/promote-the-two-stroke/index.html (http://blogs.dirtrider.com/6671560/editorial/promote-the-two-stroke/index.html)
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posted by jimmy lewis
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In my opinion, Dirt Rider stands above MXA and Dirt Bike any day. Jimmy Lewis is one of only a couple of companies that has replied back to me time and time again.
FYI
The petition is up to 1220
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Nice!
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In my opinion, Dirt Rider stands above MXA and Dirt Bike any day. Jimmy Lewis is one of only a couple of companies that has replied back to me time and time again.
FYI
The petition is up to 1220
I one time got my letter to them in their magazine one time, I was so pumped, I do believe that Dirt rider is a much better magazine than any other out there, especially Transworld motocross, I just bought their magazine, and it was filled with ads, every article was geared towards a 14 year old boy, and the reviews they gave were stupid, no depth to them.
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In my opinion, Dirt Rider stands above MXA and Dirt Bike any day. Jimmy Lewis is one of only a couple of companies that has replied back to me time and time again.
FYI
The petition is up to 1220
I have to agree with this, beyond his stand offish demeanor he does listen to his readers more than MXA. Though, I do tend to lean towards MXA more for unbiased MX bike reviews, and dirtrider for the rest. I've gotten along with the test riders from both camps very easily, and have had pretty quick replies and conversations with Jody from MXA, plus he doesn't come off as cocky as Jimmy Lewis does (Jimmy is a nice guy, but he does have that going for or against him however you look at it... Ignore it and keep talking with him and he's not too bad. I believe most people just get intimidated and walk off).
DirtRider is smart and knows their reader base is far less impressed by the marketing than the customers than the other magazines, and they include their readers in a lot of the testing (this last testing session with the 150SX and KTM 250SX-F is a prime example). Kudos to them on that one, not many magazines would take the risk of allowing some random person to test equipment that isn't even theirs, with no waiver even. They definitely earned another subscriber just from that whole event, a nice companion for my MXA subscription.
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Yeah, that's a good point.
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In my opinion, Dirt Rider stands above MXA and Dirt Bike any day. Jimmy Lewis is one of only a couple of companies that has replied back to me time and time again.
FYI
The petition is up to 1220
I one time got my letter to them in their magazine one time, I was so pumped, I do believe that Dirt rider is a much better magazine than any other out there, especially Transworld motocross, I just bought their magazine, and it was filled with ads, every article was geared towards a 14 year old boy, and the reviews they gave were stupid, no depth to them.
They are trying to keep you updated on what the latest gear is :)
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The petition continues to climb. It is up to 1263. Work was extra busy the last couple of days, but I will try and get this out to some other places this week. I have tried load up my reply and notes for the proposal, but my file is too large. I'm still working on it to let everyone view it. It would be helpful to have the amount of race entries over the last 5 years. This would tell the story. I'm sure this is something that Al Lud. could come up with.