AMA Petition

[burn1986]

Yeah I just had to kind of brush his comment off. I mentioned the other current brands with 144s - TM, Husqvarna, and Yamaha Australia (GYTR-YZ144). Do you know who the other guy is that he mentioned? Thanks

[2smoker]

Yeah I just had to kind of brush his comment off. I mentioned the other current brands with 144s - TM, Husqvarna, and Yamaha Australia (GYTR-YZ144). Do you know who the other guy is that he mentioned? Thanks

Nope, We will soon.. Did you forward this also to the manufacturers??? Get the drama going.. !!!

[JohnN]

Man, I'm tryin to get this to some European websites, but I cannot freakin read these things. Anyone know how to read French and Italian, expecially at pistedellemarche.com. thanks

I speak French.. pistedellemarche.com is Spanish..

Spanish and Italian is very close....  that web site is Italian.

The easy way to read those sites is to use Google Translator
http://translate.google.com/?hl=en&tab=wT#

The same goes for writing something, you can type out what you want to say, and then translate it using the software. Is it perfect? Hell no!! But in most cases they will understand you. In your case I would suggest that you write it in English and ask a member of the site to translate it for you.

Many readers from other countries come to this site, to read it they use a translating software like the Google one.

As for Al, he will guide you to the people you need to speak with, but be aware, if this gets big and a lot of signatures, the people that can make changes will see it at some point!!

For now I say concentrate on spreading the word and getting as many signatures as possible. A few thousand will get the attention that this type of change will require. But remember the more, the better.

Please continue to spread the petition to everyone you know.

[Coop]

Awesome work burn! I applaud your efforts! 

[burn1986]

Is anyone going to be at Loretta Lynns this weekend? We need to get the word out there. I am calling them today.

[bearorso]

In all conscience, I could never sign that petition.

I believe in capacity equivalency, totally. To have anything less than that is not good enough.

Little steps, as in being 'allowed' an extra 25cc and 50cc in the 250 and 450 class is still a joke. It actually would slow down / have more potential to stop the advent of capacity equivalency. It would enable the powers that be to say "look, we've done something for you already, now piss off ".

And what do you thnk would happen to classes that have finally been allowed parity? I've got the feeling that they would be rolled back to this 'new' ruling. So , go back from 250 to 250 in AMA non Pro racing, back from 250 vs 250 in OZ and NZ Pro racing, and other places that have finally allowed equivalency. WMX allows equivalency , this year. These series, plus GNCC, DCs baby - the first high level series in the US to have 250 vs 250, in the XC2 class - show  The Fact That All These Changes Have Not Led To Domination Of The 4ts, By 2ts. That IS THE best recommendation for equivalency we've had.

Think about it people. No , REALLY think about it.

Your talking appeasement, and risk loosing the foot in the door for full equivalency, that we have started to get closer to. What we are much more likely to get from this, is a loss of what has been gained.


I appreciate the thoughts behind this, but  I will Never support this , as it is misguided and could put the potential brighter future for 2ts , from ever appearing.

As I've written before , and few people have seemed to catch on up to - I feel DCs comments about the 250 vs 250 being unfair was him purely having a dig at those that opposed equivalency - being sarcastic and basically labeling those who opposed equivalency as being gutless and supporting a bad rule, that is no longer needed. His organisations change for the XC2 rules was / is a perfect way of showing how pathetic and unfounded  the fears of the anti equivalency backers are. Pointing to that, and other series / organizations changes as not being the death knell of their beloved 4ts, is the best way of having equivalency brought across the board.

So , once again, there is No Way  I could support such a petition as this. It should be a petition for equivalency, no more , no less.

And before you spit the dummy at me, read and re-read what I have written, and think a bit about it.

[Coop]

We have thought about it bearorso. The problem is many believe, including the AMA, that equal CC's will NEVER happen!

[bearorso]

And this petition is likely to ensure that. The non pro side of racing is where the sales actually are, having people being able to compete with equal capacity bikes, with no disadvantage, is what will sell 2ts. It Has Already Happened, at the club and some Pro levels. An extra 25cc and 50cc will not help our cause, and will probably loose what equivalency we have.

I'm pretty damned sure that the vast majority of riders who have gone back to 2 strokes, when they have been finally able to compete with the same capacity bikes as the 4ts, would not be happy about having to go back to a 144/150.

I know I sure as hell would not be contemplating returning to racing, as I am doing so now, to go up against riders on 250 4ts, if I was restricted to a 150.

Having rules that apply equally , across all classes and levels of racing, is a much more rational thing for organisations to contemplate - and getting those small capacity increases, for AMA Pro Racing, and FIM, will , inevitably, loose the equivalency that has been gained.

It's called shooting yourself in the foot, to keep the analogy simple.

[miedosoracing]

"and risk loosing the foot in the door for full equivalency"

What foot do you have in the door? Just a honest question.

[JETZcorp]

The Fact That All These Changes Have Not Led To Domination Of The 4ts, By 2ts. That IS THE best recommendation for equivalency we've had.

I think that's the foot he had in mind?

[bearorso]

Meido, read my post - see the examples of equivalency given. It's written in a simple, straight forward style, that I don't think is hard to follow .

 Many racing organisations / clubs/ tracks have dropped the 4t handicap. Have you been hiding in a cave?  There is much more to be lost, than gained, by appeasing those that want to keep high level racings incredibly biased 4t / 2t status quo, by demanding anything less than equivalency.

[JETZcorp]

I don't know if I buy your principle there.  I don't see any reason for those organizations, who have equivalency and are doing just fine, to then take a step backward and go to formula 144 (or whatever you want to call it.)  If what happened in the category of Pro MX really had that much of an influence that everyone else follows that lead, it would be shown by WMX, Amateur MX, and GNCC being 125 vs 250F, wouldn't it?

Also, it seems to be that one of the biggest, if not THE biggest factors that's blocking equivalency right now is two-stroke sales and availability.  When DC was asked about it, he said it would benefit Yamaha and KTM and not the others.  What this compromise does is allow the two-strokes to be more competitive and put incentive on Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Honda to bring back their two-strokes.  I'm not saying they will, especially in Honda's case, but I wouldn't be surprised if this rule change as proposed in the petition were enough to bring back the RM, or even the KX.  It might also give KTM and incentive to put more research dollars into their little direct-injection thing, now that their super-competitive 150SX is legal.  With more two-strokes participating, the factories may be much more inclined to accept equivalency in the future, as this middle-step gives them time to adjust and shift things around, without just getting completely wiped out by the YZ250 and 250SX within the first ten minutes.  That's what they're afraid of.

[Coop]

I can't believe I am about to type this...but I agree with JETZ. 

I think banging our head against the wall and screaming "Equal displacement or nothing!!!" will be what hurts two strokes more than 144/300. I think at this stage in the game, 144/300 will happen MUCH sooner than they would go for cc equivalence.

[opfermanmotors]

Truthfully speaking, what are the chances the rules will even make it to 144 / 300 cc?  I signed it, but really, I don't even see that happening unfortunately.

[JETZcorp]

I can't believe I am about to type this...but I agree with JETZ.

I laughed so hard I almost fell out of my chair.

But the way I see it, the 144/300 isn't just a smaller improvement that can be achieved sooner (yes, it is that as well) but I think it's a good stepping-stone to full equivalency.  The reason that the factories are so much against 1:1 displacement right now is the fact that it's very sudden.  They (meaning Honda, Kawasaki, and Suzuki) are left with only three options when a 1:1 proposal comes up.  They can bring back their old two-strokes and just pretend the last decade never happened, which would be very awkward to explain.  They can lay down some serious money and try and make a four-stroke that can compete on an equal field (remember when Honda tried that in MotoGP... with oval pistons... that failed) or they can just shoot down the proposal.  So far, we've seen that they're choosing to shoot down the proposal.  Now, the idea behind 144/300 is that because it's a much smaller change, it will still be quite possible to win on four-strokes.  The factories can bring things back quietly and slowly, without having to scramble around and look like idiots.  Assuming that this proposal is accepted (which is not a given, as Opferman pointed out!) I think that the affect it will have on the 2T/4T sales and production as well as public perception, will be a massive foot in the door for equivalency.  And again, as I've said, I don't buy the premise that it will cause the other classes and organizations to switch from 1:1, though of course, nobody can know with certainty until it's been done.