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Offline Stusmoke

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Engine oil: Mineral, semi-synthetic and synthetic
« on: January 29, 2014, 10:39:54 PM »
Another dread thread. But heres the thing: Synthetic oil here in Aus, and even semi synthetic for that matter, is quite literally TWICE the price of mineral. I've been running mineral oil in my KTM for a good 25 hours of hard riding now, and its shown absolutely zero signs of aggrivation. And this is with the uber paranoid me, that pulled the jug off every 5 hours for the first 20 hours to inspect things. Don't trust the dealer, plus its a two stroke so you know, why the hell not? :P

But my question is: What are the facts? What are the REAL differences here? Last oil thread that appeared I remember someone mentioned they ran peanut oil through their transmission in the ultra high rpm go-karts. If carbon build up and smoke are the worst worries, they can cram their double-dollar synthetic stuff.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline beaner

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Engine oil: Mineral, semi-synthetic and synthetic
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2014, 11:55:40 PM »
Few would dispute that synthetic oil is better, but when mixed appropriately, non synthetic oils are fine.

Can you not get Amsoil at a decent price as a dealer or preferred customer? Even in Canada where syn. oil is crazy expensive, we can get Amsoil for a good price direct.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
Ontario, Canada

Offline Stusmoke

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Engine oil: Mineral, semi-synthetic and synthetic
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2014, 05:24:24 AM »
Well its about $83 for a 4 litre jug of Torco goo. Not any cheaper for Castrol either. Motul is about the same aswell. Just looked at some amsoil and it came in at $93 for 3.7 litres. Thats ****ed. Royally. I could mix and jet for 20:1 and still save money with mineral. So in all seriousness: What kind of losses am I looking at? Wear? Performance? Ego?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline TMKIWI

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Engine oil: Mineral, semi-synthetic and synthetic
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2014, 07:01:08 AM »
Buy the good stuff stu.
I buy my Bel Ray H1R oil direct from the wholesaler at $21 Litre for all 4 bikes and realistically it is not a huge investment overhaul in the running costs of a bike. I haven't even looked at any of my spark plugs in a year. I will change out the plugs once a year for peice of mind.
Obviously my bikes are jetted correctly but I would rather pay more for oil then pay for bottom ends.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
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Offline beaner

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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2014, 07:48:10 AM »
. Just looked at some amsoil and it came in at $93 for 3.7 litres. Thats ****ed. Royally. I could mix and jet for 20:1 and still save money with mineral. So in all seriousness: What kind of losses am I looking at? Wear? Performance? Ego?

That's what I paid for a case of 12, 1 liter bottles of Dominator :o

Buy a decent brand name mineral oil and mix at 32-1. You'll be fine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
Ontario, Canada

Offline Stusmoke

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Engine oil: Mineral, semi-synthetic and synthetic
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2014, 09:42:08 AM »
. Just looked at some amsoil and it came in at $93 for 3.7 litres. Thats ****ed. Royally. I could mix and jet for 20:1 and still save money with mineral. So in all seriousness: What kind of losses am I looking at? Wear? Performance? Ego?

That's what I paid for a case of 12, 1 liter bottles of Dominator :o

Buy a decent brand name mineral oil and mix at 32-1. You'll be fine.

Thanks, any suggestions?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline beaner

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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2014, 12:04:19 PM »
I don't know what you can get there. Can you get Esso easy mix? I think it is a synthetic (or blend), but it's really inexpensive here, and supposed to be quite good.
One of  the guys I ride with told me he used Castrol super 2 stroke for years without a single problem. He's also our club's #1 pro, and he's not easy on stuff.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
Ontario, Canada

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2014, 12:22:50 PM »
I don't have any good information so you can stop reading now...

My Dad swore up and down by natural oils. As a professional race engine builder, you had to put some weight behind his observations. However, synthetic oils have developed by leaps and bounds since he was building race engines. This is what I do know...

Between 1990 and 2001, I raced just about every weekend...somewhere. I also rode during the week "for training". I did oil changes and cleaned the filter every day I rode. I used Castrol GTX 20w50 in the bottom ends, some kind of specific foam filter oil and premixed Silcoline synthetic at 40:1. I would change the plug before any national or GNCC just because.

I had no oil related failures in that time. In 1998, I raced 48 events on the same piston/ring. When we tore down the bottom end, it looked new! (We big bored the top it was so bad!). I even had two events where the drain plug came out and dumped the oil in the forest somewhere. I finished 1st in one of those events and 3rd in the other.

I am not saying mineral is better than synthetic...but my guess is that it is not so much better that you should care. We live in a "throw away society". Do you really care if your piston lasts 5 minutes longer or your clutch lasts 1/3rd of a ride longer? Do you really care if your gears last 25 years? No. You plan to ride your bike 1, 3, or 5 years..sell it and buy the lastest weapon of choice.

I run synthetic now because I'm stupid. It is twice as expensive as mineral but I don't know what a brand of good mineral oil is so I don't want to chance it. I used to have good links for oil information. It is out there and not brand specific. (You probably need to be an engineer to understand it.) I'll see if I can dig it up or you can just Google like crazy!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline Stusmoke

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Engine oil: Mineral, semi-synthetic and synthetic
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2014, 12:39:51 AM »
I don't have any good information so you can stop reading now...

My Dad swore up and down by natural oils. As a professional race engine builder, you had to put some weight behind his observations. However, synthetic oils have developed by leaps and bounds since he was building race engines. This is what I do know...

Between 1990 and 2001, I raced just about every weekend...somewhere. I also rode during the week "for training". I did oil changes and cleaned the filter every day I rode. I used Castrol GTX 20w50 in the bottom ends, some kind of specific foam filter oil and premixed Silcoline synthetic at 40:1. I would change the plug before any national or GNCC just because.

I had no oil related failures in that time. In 1998, I raced 48 events on the same piston/ring. When we tore down the bottom end, it looked new! (We big bored the top it was so bad!). I even had two events where the drain plug came out and dumped the oil in the forest somewhere. I finished 1st in one of those events and 3rd in the other.

I am not saying mineral is better than synthetic...but my guess is that it is not so much better that you should care. We live in a "throw away society". Do you really care if your piston lasts 5 minutes longer or your clutch lasts 1/3rd of a ride longer? Do you really care if your gears last 25 years? No. You plan to ride your bike 1, 3, or 5 years..sell it and buy the lastest weapon of choice.

I run synthetic now because I'm stupid. It is twice as expensive as mineral but I don't know what a brand of good mineral oil is so I don't want to chance it. I used to have good links for oil information. It is out there and not brand specific. (You probably need to be an engineer to understand it.) I'll see if I can dig it up or you can just Google like crazy!

Actually thats basically exactly what I'm after. The basic maths is easy: If I average 50 hours out of a piston with ring changes at 25 and hte full top end at 50 on synthetic oils for lets say $90 for 4 litres, I switch to mineral and do it at 49. I pay about $150-170 for a full top ned including all bearings and gaskets depending on the exchange rates at the time. So I would save rough3-5 dollars on the top end, in exchange for paying an extra 45 dollars the synthetic oil. Doesn't mate much sense to me. Carbon build up? My cylinder gets cleaned and cared for better than half of my town's residents. Couldn't care less about that. Smoke? isn't the smoke one of the reasons we're all on this forum, reading this?

I'm on a tight budget, I'd rather mix it richer, and go up a main and clip size than pay double the money for the oil.

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline beaner

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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2014, 03:25:58 PM »
Specifications for two stroke oil are as follows.

http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Specifications_for_two_stroke_oil

List of oils and their certifications

http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf

Get yourself a JASO FC or ISO-L-EGC or D oil, and you'll be fine. You should have numerous options in a non-synthetic.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
Ontario, Canada

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2014, 09:25:53 AM »
Yes, the trick is to decipher the codes that follow motor oil to determine what is best for you. They intentionally make it difficult :) so just say "screw it" and buy what the famous person selling it tells you.

I would doubt you need to run richer (and remember more oil means leaner jetting) as it is only the breakdown of the oil that would cause a failure and if you are changing it regularly, and are jetted correctly, it should be alright. I would think probably to MOST important things to do would be power valve and silencer maintenance. Both would probably need more and frequent attention.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline Stusmoke

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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2014, 12:05:43 AM »
Yes, the trick is to decipher the codes that follow motor oil to determine what is best for you. They intentionally make it difficult :) so just say "screw it" and buy what the famous person selling it tells you.

I would doubt you need to run richer (and remember more oil means leaner jetting) as it is only the breakdown of the oil that would cause a failure and if you are changing it regularly, and are jetted correctly, it should be alright. I would think probably to MOST important things to do would be power valve and silencer maintenance. Both would probably need more and frequent attention.

While you remind me, what is a good time frame for repacking the silencer?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2014, 09:05:16 AM »
At least every ring.  :o I know that seems excessive but just think that that packing has such a great effect on your jetting. It is equivellent to running with out an air cleaner (well OK, the opposit affect).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
08 Speed Bird Quad 110, 08 KTM 144, 04 Suzuki LT-Z400, 03 Gas Gas EC, 300,97 Honda CR144, 96 Husky Boy 50, 88 Husky 400WR, 86 Honda CR125R, 80 Can-Am MX6 400, 75 Husky 360CR, 75 Husky 175CC, 73 Penton Jackpiner 175, 72 Husky 250CR, 72 Husky 125, 72 Rickman-Zundapp 125, (2) 71 Bultaco Pursang Mk

Offline Stusmoke

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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2014, 10:31:48 PM »
Ok I will definitely bear alll of that in mind.

Thanks for all the info guys, greatly appreciated
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2014, 07:13:10 AM »
why only discus synth, mineral and blends?
there are other options.... other much better options.


I can get you castor/synth/ceramic oil for $35/L in Melbourne ;)
Let me know if you want some, its amazing stuff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »