Post by: Stusmoke on January 29, 2014, 10:39:54 PM
But my question is: What are the facts? What are the REAL differences here? Last oil thread that appeared I remember someone mentioned they ran peanut oil through their transmission in the ultra high rpm go-karts. If carbon build up and smoke are the worst worries, they can cram their double-dollar synthetic stuff.
Post by: beaner on January 29, 2014, 11:55:40 PM
Can you not get Amsoil at a decent price as a dealer or preferred customer? Even in Canada where syn. oil is crazy expensive, we can get Amsoil for a good price direct.
Post by: Stusmoke on January 30, 2014, 05:24:24 AM
Post by: TMKIWI on January 30, 2014, 07:01:08 AM
I buy my Bel Ray H1R oil direct from the wholesaler at $21 Litre for all 4 bikes and realistically it is not a huge investment overhaul in the running costs of a bike. I haven't even looked at any of my spark plugs in a year. I will change out the plugs once a year for peice of mind.
Obviously my bikes are jetted correctly but I would rather pay more for oil then pay for bottom ends.
Post by: beaner on January 30, 2014, 07:48:10 AM
. Just looked at some amsoil and it came in at $93 for 3.7 litres. Thats ****ed. Royally. I could mix and jet for 20:1 and still save money with mineral. So in all seriousness: What kind of losses am I looking at? Wear? Performance? Ego?
That's what I paid for a case of 12, 1 liter bottles of Dominator
Buy a decent brand name mineral oil and mix at 32-1. You'll be fine.
Post by: Stusmoke on January 30, 2014, 09:42:08 AM
. Just looked at some amsoil and it came in at $93 for 3.7 litres. Thats ****ed. Royally. I could mix and jet for 20:1 and still save money with mineral. So in all seriousness: What kind of losses am I looking at? Wear? Performance? Ego?
That's what I paid for a case of 12, 1 liter bottles of Dominator
Buy a decent brand name mineral oil and mix at 32-1. You'll be fine.
Thanks, any suggestions?
Post by: beaner on January 30, 2014, 12:04:19 PM
One of the guys I ride with told me he used Castrol super 2 stroke for years without a single problem. He's also our club's #1 pro, and he's not easy on stuff.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on January 30, 2014, 12:22:50 PM
My Dad swore up and down by natural oils. As a professional race engine builder, you had to put some weight behind his observations. However, synthetic oils have developed by leaps and bounds since he was building race engines. This is what I do know...
Between 1990 and 2001, I raced just about every weekend...somewhere. I also rode during the week "for training". I did oil changes and cleaned the filter every day I rode. I used Castrol GTX 20w50 in the bottom ends, some kind of specific foam filter oil and premixed Silcoline synthetic at 40:1. I would change the plug before any national or GNCC just because.
I had no oil related failures in that time. In 1998, I raced 48 events on the same piston/ring. When we tore down the bottom end, it looked new! (We big bored the top it was so bad!). I even had two events where the drain plug came out and dumped the oil in the forest somewhere. I finished 1st in one of those events and 3rd in the other.
I am not saying mineral is better than synthetic...but my guess is that it is not so much better that you should care. We live in a "throw away society". Do you really care if your piston lasts 5 minutes longer or your clutch lasts 1/3rd of a ride longer? Do you really care if your gears last 25 years? No. You plan to ride your bike 1, 3, or 5 years..sell it and buy the lastest weapon of choice.
I run synthetic now because I'm stupid. It is twice as expensive as mineral but I don't know what a brand of good mineral oil is so I don't want to chance it. I used to have good links for oil information. It is out there and not brand specific. (You probably need to be an engineer to understand it.) I'll see if I can dig it up or you can just Google like crazy!
Post by: Stusmoke on January 31, 2014, 12:39:51 AM
I don't have any good information so you can stop reading now...
My Dad swore up and down by natural oils. As a professional race engine builder, you had to put some weight behind his observations. However, synthetic oils have developed by leaps and bounds since he was building race engines. This is what I do know...
Between 1990 and 2001, I raced just about every weekend...somewhere. I also rode during the week "for training". I did oil changes and cleaned the filter every day I rode. I used Castrol GTX 20w50 in the bottom ends, some kind of specific foam filter oil and premixed Silcoline synthetic at 40:1. I would change the plug before any national or GNCC just because.
I had no oil related failures in that time. In 1998, I raced 48 events on the same piston/ring. When we tore down the bottom end, it looked new! (We big bored the top it was so bad!). I even had two events where the drain plug came out and dumped the oil in the forest somewhere. I finished 1st in one of those events and 3rd in the other.
I am not saying mineral is better than synthetic...but my guess is that it is not so much better that you should care. We live in a "throw away society". Do you really care if your piston lasts 5 minutes longer or your clutch lasts 1/3rd of a ride longer? Do you really care if your gears last 25 years? No. You plan to ride your bike 1, 3, or 5 years..sell it and buy the lastest weapon of choice.
I run synthetic now because I'm stupid. It is twice as expensive as mineral but I don't know what a brand of good mineral oil is so I don't want to chance it. I used to have good links for oil information. It is out there and not brand specific. (You probably need to be an engineer to understand it.) I'll see if I can dig it up or you can just Google like crazy!
Actually thats basically exactly what I'm after. The basic maths is easy: If I average 50 hours out of a piston with ring changes at 25 and hte full top end at 50 on synthetic oils for lets say $90 for 4 litres, I switch to mineral and do it at 49. I pay about $150-170 for a full top ned including all bearings and gaskets depending on the exchange rates at the time. So I would save rough3-5 dollars on the top end, in exchange for paying an extra 45 dollars the synthetic oil. Doesn't mate much sense to me. Carbon build up? My cylinder gets cleaned and cared for better than half of my town's residents. Couldn't care less about that. Smoke? isn't the smoke one of the reasons we're all on this forum, reading this?
I'm on a tight budget, I'd rather mix it richer, and go up a main and clip size than pay double the money for the oil.
Thanks everyone, I appreciate it.
Post by: beaner on January 31, 2014, 03:25:58 PM
http://www.mopedarmy.com/wiki/Specifications_for_two_stroke_oil
List of oils and their certifications
http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV_LIST.pdf
Get yourself a JASO FC or ISO-L-EGC or D oil, and you'll be fine. You should have numerous options in a non-synthetic.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on February 02, 2014, 09:25:53 AM
so just say "screw it" and buy what the famous person selling it tells you.I would doubt you need to run richer (and remember more oil means leaner jetting) as it is only the breakdown of the oil that would cause a failure and if you are changing it regularly, and are jetted correctly, it should be alright. I would think probably to MOST important things to do would be power valve and silencer maintenance. Both would probably need more and frequent attention.
Post by: Stusmoke on February 03, 2014, 12:05:43 AM
Yes, the trick is to decipher the codes that follow motor oil to determine what is best for you. They intentionally make it difficult
I would doubt you need to run richer (and remember more oil means leaner jetting) as it is only the breakdown of the oil that would cause a failure and if you are changing it regularly, and are jetted correctly, it should be alright. I would think probably to MOST important things to do would be power valve and silencer maintenance. Both would probably need more and frequent attention.
While you remind me, what is a good time frame for repacking the silencer?
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on February 03, 2014, 09:05:16 AM
I know that seems excessive but just think that that packing has such a great effect on your jetting. It is equivellent to running with out an air cleaner (well OK, the opposit affect).
Post by: Stusmoke on February 03, 2014, 10:31:48 PM
Thanks for all the info guys, greatly appreciated
Post by: Jeram on March 05, 2014, 07:13:10 AM
there are other options.... other much better options.
I can get you castor/synth/ceramic oil for $35/L in Melbourne
Let me know if you want some, its amazing stuff
Post by: partofexile on March 11, 2014, 04:04:28 AM
Post by: beaner on March 11, 2014, 10:25:45 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on March 11, 2014, 10:31:16 AM
^ That's a spam post ^
yes. indeed it is.
why only discus synth, mineral and blends?
there are other options.... other much better options.
I can get you castor/synth/ceramic oil for $35/L in Melbourne
Let me know if you want some, its amazing stuff
As much as I would love to spend $35 a litre on what is apparently liquid gold, doesn't that kinda defeat hte purpose of me saving money?
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on March 11, 2014, 11:29:03 AM
Quote
As much as I would love to spend $35 a litre on what is apparently liquid gold, doesn't that kinda defeat hte purpose of me saving money?
But are you really saving money if you have an oil realated failure? What if the part is irreplaceable as some vintage stuff is? When my '75 360 Husky handgrenaded, I really felt like a close family member died and honestly considered not riding my old bikes anymore. Like all family deaths, you eventually get over it and move on, but hopefully you learn something from it. (I aparrently did not!)
The other thing to consider is horsepower. Oil in the gas is only their to lubricate the moving parts. Running more oil allows you to run more fuel/air thought the cylinder without generating more heat. A big cause of detonation is heat build up (dieseling). Better oils help prevent it.
I don't know if that stuff is worth more than decent scotch but I bet my bikes would like it more!
Post by: Stusmoke on March 11, 2014, 09:38:42 PM
QuoteAs much as I would love to spend $35 a litre on what is apparently liquid gold, doesn't that kinda defeat hte purpose of me saving money?
But are you really saving money if you have an oil realated failure? What if the part is irreplaceable as some vintage stuff is? When my '75 360 Husky handgrenaded, I really felt like a close family member died and honestly considered not riding my old bikes anymore. Like all family deaths, you eventually get over it and move on, but hopefully you learn something from it. (I aparrently did not!)
The other thing to consider is horsepower. Oil in the gas is only their to lubricate the moving parts. Running more oil allows you to run more fuel/air thought the cylinder without generating more heat. A big cause of detonation is heat build up (dieseling). Better oils help prevent it.
I don't know if that stuff is worth more than decent scotch but I bet my bikes would like it more!
No doubt. But I don't see any parts on a '13 250sx becoming irreplaceable anytime soon. There can be no doubt that better oil is better (duh) but I keep an extremely close eye on my motor. It gets better looked after than most africans. Using the mineral stuff means I can run tons of oil through the motor and still be doing it MUCH cheaper than the synthetic stuff. Maybe if I can pick up some extra work I might move to better oil
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on March 11, 2014, 10:24:58 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on March 12, 2014, 05:44:18 AM
Sorry Stu. I wasn't insinuating anything. Just throwing it out there to consider.
No apology necessary I wasn't either
Post by: Jeram on March 13, 2014, 09:37:34 AM
^ That's a spam post ^
yes. indeed it is.why only discus synth, mineral and blends?
there are other options.... other much better options.
I can get you castor/synth/ceramic oil for $35/L in Melbourne
Let me know if you want some, its amazing stuff
As much as I would love to spend $35 a litre on what is apparently liquid gold, doesn't that kinda defeat hte purpose of me saving money?
$35 a litre is the cheapest oil Ive ever purchased. The last oil I used was 50!
And I mix at 25:1 ratio...
It may add $10 to the cost of a tank of fuel, but thats still $500 cheaper than new Nikasil and new piston, and $300 cheaper than a new rod and a crank rebuild.
If you only use the best then the only thing you can blame an engine failure on is yourself
Post by: mj4trax on March 13, 2014, 04:09:23 PM
I occasionally am tempted to go back to mineral oil (standard yamalube), just to avoid spooge.
It seems that no matter how crisply I jet my bikes, that they still spit black stuff out the back as long as I'm running high end synthetic oil. Whenever I run anything non-synthetic (same or richer ratio with no change to jetting) I get a clean exhaust. I theorize that I'm not getting the combustion chamber hot enough to actually burn the Motul.
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on March 13, 2014, 05:14:39 PM
Maybe you have the same amount of particulate matter but one is heavier so collects as spooge?
Post by: TMKIWI on March 13, 2014, 09:23:47 PM
Wow, I've been unhappy about having to pay $16(US)/L for my Motul 800.... guess that's not so bad. I won't complain.
I occasionally am tempted to go back to mineral oil (standard yamalube), just to avoid spooge.
It seems that no matter how crisply I jet my bikes, that they still spit black stuff out the back as long as I'm running high end synthetic oil. Whenever I run anything non-synthetic (same or richer ratio with no change to jetting) I get a clean exhaust. I theorize that I'm not getting the combustion chamber hot enough to actually burn the Motul.
Motul 800 is designed for very high performance. ie, if you don't thrash the living sh!t out of your bike you will get spooge because of the lack of temperature.
Exactly as you theorize.
Great oil for small bores.
If you can put up with the spooge keep using 800 or if you can't , change to Motul 710 and save some money.
Post by: Stusmoke on March 13, 2014, 09:32:57 PM
Wow, I've been unhappy about having to pay $16(US)/L for my Motul 800.... guess that's not so bad. I won't complain.
I occasionally am tempted to go back to mineral oil (standard yamalube), just to avoid spooge.
It seems that no matter how crisply I jet my bikes, that they still spit black stuff out the back as long as I'm running high end synthetic oil. Whenever I run anything non-synthetic (same or richer ratio with no change to jetting) I get a clean exhaust. I theorize that I'm not getting the combustion chamber hot enough to actually burn the Motul.
A four litre jug of motorex cross power 4T 15W40 to run through the gearbox falls around the $120 mark. And you don't even want to hear about the 2T crosspower
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on March 13, 2014, 11:40:11 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on March 14, 2014, 12:01:10 AM
I use either Castrol GTX or Mobil1 1 in the gearbox. I can't remember what it costs me now but I am sure it is about $40 or more for 6 liters. I run Amsoil for premix. I think it was $90 for 4 liters. I mix with 98 octane pump gas.
Ive been running Torco engine oils through my gearbox and its the best stuff ive ever used. I strongly recommend it, it made my old Motul stuff feel like superglue.