4 $troke lovers= delusional people

[TotalNZ]

I was never taking a shot at you miedosoracing, i respect your opinion and i hear what you're saying.
The point i guess i was trying to make is that if you're racing to win, under the current rules and regime
you'd be faster on a fourbanger. Yes that sucks and no thats not fair.

[ACMX]

Hey guys this isn't a bar. Try to keep the negative comments to a minimum. This is a conversation not a fight.

[miedosoracing]

I was never taking a shot at you miedosoracing, i respect your opinion and i hear what you're saying.
The point i guess i was trying to make is that if you're racing to win, under the current rules and regime
you'd be faster on a fourbanger. Yes that sucks and no thats not fair.

That's cool, But this guy is in open or age classes, so it doesn't matter what cc's he runs. Many of us here now, have cc vs cc rules.  My whole problem with him bringing up the 2 vs 4 stroke in his argument, was that he was trying to say he didn't qualify because he was on a 2 stroke, but with facts, have shown it was because he was on an old bike and was trying to compare it to an atleast 10 year newer KX450F, which wasn't fair. I was also showing that 4 strokes when they let go, cost too much to repair, which he proved as well. I was only trying to show facts. I'm out again.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

The only reason that is true is because there no 2 stroke atv's left to buy

I think Yamaha still produces the Blaster and/or Banshee though you may not get it in your area.

[chump6784]

out of interest, does anyone know how much RC's PC 125 motor would have been worth. Everyone keeps saying 20k 250f motors but i was just wondering how that would compare with a factory 2 stroke.

From my past experience the small bore classes have always been where the major money was spent on bikes. i remember kx 60's with kx 80 forks, extended swingarms or a full kx 80 chassis plus the mechanic would go to town on the motor. The 80's and 125's were the same, you could never get enough power out of them and a lot of money was spent getting them to perform. My brothers kx 80 was worked that hard it had to be rebuilt after 3 race days, that is about 3 hours of riding. if it wasnt rebuilt it would blow up. when it was running it would keep with a standard 125 tho.

jump to the 250 class and all anyone really seemed to do was a pipe and muffler, some porting and maybe reeds and that was enough. it was obvious in the smaller classes when someone had spent real money on an engine because that bike would haul ass but i never really noticed it that much in the 250 class, it was more just the better riders

[miedosoracing]

The 2 stroke motors were even cheaper for PC themselves.  Mitch has to outsource much of the parts he uses on the 4 strokes.  Thus the price.  He said that he has to have a crap load of anything made, then if it is wrong, or doesn't work like he hoped, they just got trashed and had to order new stuff.  The cool thing about 2 strokes, that most engine builders could port them.  I know Jackson Performance was well known in the Iowa- Illin area, and people up there didn't like PC port jobs, because off the assembly line at PC, they just did a couple grinds here and there, but didn't do full on porting unless your name was RC.  Things like that, plus a full port job was like $900 or something like that, and that was even from PC.  No one can do the motors like PC on 4 strokes, because they don't have the access to all the specialty makings, unless they want to throw out a whole lot of dough in hopes they don't get the first batch wrong.  

[miedosoracing]

http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Meet-Mitch-Payton,989/GuyB,64

[VintageBlueSmoke]

Both 2T and 4$ full on race motors were (are) over the top expensive and none of them are built to last. They are built to be used up at the end of the life cycle. RC's 2T (and 4$) motor was filled with little bits of love that Joe MXer could not buy with all the money in Micro$oft.

The problem is when it comes to Joe MXer racing local B class, he can do it on a stock (or semi stock) 2T for a couple of years with out spending more than $300 or so. Not so if he rides a 250F.

Good insight, miedodoracing.

[snook620]

Ive read somewere Mitch said he could build three 125's for the price of one 250f.

[miedosoracing]

" I don't know that I like the 250 four-strokes in the 125 class. It is too much of an advantage. They are double the size of our KX125's. Double! The legal four-strokes in the 250 class aren't double. The legal four strokes in the 80 class aren't double. You need to find a happy medium, and 250 ain't it. They are going to keep getting better, too. Right now, the 125's can run with them with momentum and speed in the corners, but what happens when you get behind them is that they slow down in the corners because they don't corner as well. They squirt the first ten or twenty feet, and then you have to try and run them down. That's hard. They get great starts too because of their traction. They have a big advantage here. You get little kids getting off an 80cc bike and they'll have to go to a 250. It is too big for tham, too heavy and they can't start the things. All the manufacturers are working on them, and unfortunately we'll all be racing them in a few years."


Quoted in MXA, Sept. 2001.

[yo_marc]

I love that MXA quote.. I just wish it never came true..

[yo_marc]

Not to derail things, but I hear it said that 4-strokes have better traction than two-strokes.  I've heard it said it's because of the power-every-other-revolution thing; it allows the rear tire time to bite.

I cant help but wonder; what does that mean for the electric bikes in the not very distant future?  As most know, electric motors have instant-on, instant-linear-torque, now - from 0-RPM.  No power pulses.  Will they be a handful because of their very smooth power delivery?

[miedosoracing]

Not to derail things, but I hear it said that 4-strokes have better traction than two-strokes.  I've heard it said it's because of the power-every-other-revolution thing; it allows the rear tire time to bite.

I cant help but wonder; what does that mean for the electric bikes in the not very distant future?  As most know, electric motors have instant-on, instant-linear-torque, now - from 0-RPM.  No power pulses.  Will they be a handful because of their very smooth power delivery?

I totally disagree with people, when they say that. It is the way we set the bikes up, inwhich they don't get traction.  I have modded 2 strokes at the same cc's as 4 strokes, and they ran exactly like the 4 stroke.  No wheel spin, and no powerband.  Unfortunately, in MX, everyone has this thing in their head saying max power. The 250 2 stroke has more torque and hp all the way up the range. Take that down to equal a 250F, by stiffling it, and it will run exactly like the 250F.  Then the guys who love the 250F will hate the 250 2 stroke.  They will say it's slow and it doesn't run right.  Even though it is identical to that of the 4 stroke.  It's so idiotical. I've sent this setup info to MXA, but most likely will never hear about it again in the mag. 

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Not to derail things, but I hear it said that 4-strokes have better traction than two-strokes.  I've heard it said it's because of the power-every-other-revolution thing; it allows the rear tire time to bite.

I cant help but wonder; what does that mean for the electric bikes in the not very distant future?  As most know, electric motors have instant-on, instant-linear-torque, now - from 0-RPM.  No power pulses.  Will they be a handful because of their very smooth power delivery?

They will charge full speed ahead into complete and total lameness....

[yo_marc]

That's some good info Miedoso.   On the flip side of the coin, do you think any of the latest and greatest chassis or suspension tech that has hit the dealer floor in the last few years helped feed that thought (that thumpers hookup better), or has that tech kind of been plateauing? 

I'm honestly curious, not trolling.  I've been out of the latest bike tech for nearly 10 years.  Since thumpers hit the scene, really.

- and TS, I totally agree    I'd ride a thumper before an e-bike.