Two Stroke Motocross

Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: ktm150rippa on July 28, 2011, 07:53:48 PM

Title: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on July 28, 2011, 07:53:48 PM
Yesterday I had the pleasure of being invited to a private track and matt lemoine was there I wasn't riding, I was there helping my friend train. So while he was resting matt was out on the track which was awesome. But I was talkin to his dad and a few other guys there (they don't know i have a 2012 250sx) and two strokes came up in discusion and they were saying how they were gonna be exstinct soon and how matt's race bike would hand a 250 2 stroke its ass. And it made me start thinkin these are the same ppl that say 250 vs 250 isnt fair and that bs. So I thought of specific examples of them being completely wrong. I remember it was either last year or the year before that freestyle guy blake williams switched to the 250 2 stroke because he said he couldn't make some stuff on the 250f that he could on the 250. Do these ppl even have a clue? seriously. Then they were carrying on about this 100ft jump that they said a 125 couldn't make. It made me think of these 2 videos.


Motocross James Stewart Larocco's Leap (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hF8tH5GLGCY#)


James Stewart pinnin it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfpvr5D3UtA#)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Shawn36 on July 29, 2011, 04:52:39 AM
Well the freestyle comparison isn't all that close.  I see none of those guys attack corners before their ramps like a racer would, I have no doubt a 250F could make anything on a freestyle course. 

But you have to cut his family some slack probably.  Lemoine is young enough that if he raced 2-stroke big bikes at all it wasn't much, and who knows he if ever threw a leg over a 250 2-stroke.  Much like a relgious or political disscussion, all you can really do is smile and nod.  Nothing you say is going to change their minds. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on July 29, 2011, 09:03:55 AM
For those guys raw horsepower isnt everything. The traction, lighweight chassis, and overall better handling of a fully built 250f could possably turn faster lap times then a 250 2 stroke with someone like Matt Lemonie riding it.

Pro's are on a different level, unlike us they can actually use 100% of the motorcycle. For your average local the 250 2 stroke is the ultimate lites class bike.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: WoodsRiderParts on July 29, 2011, 03:35:06 PM
The 250 2T has the power advantage...the 250 4T has the traction advantage...in the right hands either bike is better based on conditions and terrain.

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on July 30, 2011, 02:34:35 PM
For those guys raw horsepower isnt everything. The traction, lighweight chassis, and overall better handling of a fully built 250f could possably turn faster lap times then a 250 2 stroke with someone like Matt Lemonie riding it.

Pro's are on a different level, unlike us they can actually use 100% of the motorcycle. For your average local the 250 2 stroke is the ultimate lites class bike.

The key word here is modern. A modern 250 would probably smear a modern 250f ... but there are none.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on July 30, 2011, 06:16:01 PM
250 4t vs. 250 2t isn't logical, two different bikes. On very tight course the 250 4t would have huge chance of winning, but then again so would a 85cc or 125cc 2t. It all comes down to track layout, and how tight it is, because a 250 4t can pull faster lap times than the 450 4t and we all know which is more powerful. Tune down the 250 2t to the same level as the 250 4t and it would have twice if not three times the torque, which makes the 250 4t useless.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on July 31, 2011, 11:53:44 AM
That is very true but I think what we are talking about in this case is the outright power of the bike, because in the original post of the topic, he is discussing jumps that people are saying a 125 can not do... That is a power factor. Because we all know an 85 couldnt do loroccos leap, but  a 125 can.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on July 31, 2011, 01:34:25 PM
you got it acmx, I just think some ppl weren't around when 2 strokes were the cream of the crop and when they talk about 125's its like they somehow think its some whimpy little bike. Now I understand it'll most likely be harder to clear some jumps compared to a 250f but that doesnt mean a 125 is a dog.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on July 31, 2011, 01:55:02 PM
Didn't TP use a rm125 for his backflip 360 attempt or what ever the hell it was? I think 125's are plenty capable.  As for out right power, its no comparison. A pro riding a 250 4t will have similar if not faster lap times than a decent rider riding a 250 2t, but when a pro rides a 250 2t its no comparison, its out right slaughter.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on July 31, 2011, 04:21:08 PM
Didn't TP use a rm125 for his backflip 360 attempt or what ever the hell it was? I think 125's are plenty capable.

He rolled down a 70 foot starting ramp at the x games....thats alot different than trying to clear a huge triple right out of a turn.

when a pro rides a 250 2t its no comparison, its out right slaughter

I disagree. Do you think they could put Blake Baggett on a 250 2t next weekend and he would still win? No
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on July 31, 2011, 04:35:15 PM
when a pro rides a 250 2t its no comparison, its out right slaughter

I disagree. Do you think they could put Blake Baggett on a 250 2t next weekend and he would still win? No
[/quote]

Thats simply because he is not used to riding a 250 2t. Put an experienced 250 2t rider out there of equal skill and my guess says on most tracks the smoker will take it.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TMKIWI on July 31, 2011, 05:26:02 PM
but when a pro rides a 250 2t its no comparison, its out right slaughter.

Rubbish.

The lap times between 250F's, 250 smokers & 450's is not that great a gap.

When DK won the NZ Lites championship this year on a YZ250 he did not slaughter the opposition.
He had some 1st,2nd,3rd & 4ths etc.
He was racing some fast Aussies on factory bikes. His YZ had a Pro-Circuit engine & was Ohlined up.
It showed that a worked 250 of both types were competitive.
The bikes were very even on the track.
It's time for 250cc to mean 250cc again.

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on July 31, 2011, 06:43:34 PM
Thats simply because he is not used to riding a 250 2t. Put an experienced 250 2t rider out there of equal skill and my guess says on most tracks the smoker will take it.

You may be right, I think it would depend on the track and conditions. If the track was fast, tacky and realitivly smooth I can see a 250 2 stroke winning a lites moto with someone like Blake or Dean riding it, but when its rough hardpacked and slick the smaller 4t would still be my pick to win the moto.

Now that were talking about it Id love to see real racing results! Someone send mitch and email  :P
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: SachsGS on July 31, 2011, 08:39:01 PM
I think we may be comparing apples to oranges here,the 4T$ have had a decade of constant development vs. sporadic,minor improvements for the 2Ts.A modern direct injected 2T that had the benefit of an R and D budget similar to a current 4T would,in my opinion,lay waste to the competition.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on July 31, 2011, 09:48:04 PM
Thats simply because he is not used to riding a 250 2t. Put an experienced 250 2t rider out there of equal skill and my guess says on most tracks the smoker will take it.

You may be right, I think it would depend on the track and conditions. If the track was fast, tacky and realitivly smooth I can see a 250 2 stroke winning a lites moto with someone like Blake or Dean riding it, but when its rough hardpacked and slick the smaller 4t would still be my pick to win the moto.

Now that were talking about it Id love to see real racing results! Someone send mitch and email  :P

This reply MUST be true!!! ...It's the same thing they say at Blumper Talk!

HERE'S THE WAY BACK HOME TO BLUMPERTALK (http://www.Thumpertalk.com)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on July 31, 2011, 10:06:24 PM
^lol


but when a pro rides a 250 2t its no comparison, its out right slaughter.

Rubbish.

The lap times between 250F's, 250 smokers & 450's is not that great a gap.

When DK won the NZ Lites championship this year on a YZ250 he did not slaughter the opposition.
He had some 1st,2nd,3rd & 4ths etc.
He was racing some fast Aussies on factory bikes. His YZ had a Pro-Circuit engine & was Ohlined up.
It showed that a worked 250 of both types were competitive.
The bikes were very even on the track.
It's time for 250cc to mean 250cc again.



True, but look at the track layout. Tracks are tighter and smaller than ever with bigger jumps as well, what do you expect?  Its as basic as the video of the ktm 85sx out running entire field of big bore 4 stroke and 2 strokes in that super motard video. I should post a video of a cr500 being out ran in the woods by a cr85. Hell, I would hope with what they are spending on these 4 stroke motor that they are indeed faster. And even if his motor was ported by PC, and it had a good suspension setup, thats what $1000-$3000 tops on top of the bike cost? Compared to what? $10000-$30000 they spend simply setting up these works motors to simply get a couple of extra seconds? A stock 250 4t vs. a stock 250 2t isn't even a comparison. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on July 31, 2011, 10:22:04 PM
Yeah I saw a video of a kx85 holeshotting the open class  (small start) in a harescramble and running away with it!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on July 31, 2011, 10:24:00 PM
KX85 beats up on CR500 OUCH! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpCnepA9b80#)
All right it was a kx85, but I was close  ::)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 01, 2011, 12:28:20 AM
^lol


but when a pro rides a 250 2t its no comparison, its out right slaughter.

Rubbish.

The lap times between 250F's, 250 smokers & 450's is not that great a gap.

When DK won the NZ Lites championship this year on a YZ250 he did not slaughter the opposition.
He had some 1st,2nd,3rd & 4ths etc.
He was racing some fast Aussies on factory bikes. His YZ had a Pro-Circuit engine & was Ohlined up.
It showed that a worked 250 of both types were competitive.
The bikes were very even on the track.
It's time for 250cc to mean 250cc again.



True, but look at the track layout. Tracks are tighter and smaller than ever with bigger jumps as well, what do you expect?  Its as basic as the video of the ktm 85sx out running entire field of big bore 4 stroke and 2 strokes in that super motard video. I should post a video of a cr500 being out ran in the woods by a cr85. Hell, I would hope with what they are spending on these 4 stroke motor that they are indeed faster. And even if his motor was ported by PC, and it had a good suspension setup, thats what $1000-$3000 tops on top of the bike cost? Compared to what? $10000-$30000 they spend simply setting up these works motors to simply get a couple of extra seconds? A stock 250 4t vs. a stock 250 2t isn't even a comparison. 
I have to agree with TMkiwi on this, i've raced against stock modern 250f's and they are fast as f**k, sure they might be bouncing off the limiter and be wrung to the limit but they put all that to the ground which equals fast lap times. I'm sure if you talk to people that actually race 250 2t's against thumpers they'll tell you the same thing.
Here in NZ it is 250 vs 250 and i'm telling you the smokers don't dominate like some of you seem to think. The modern 250F's are FAST even stock.
 Now i love 2strokes and thats all i'll own but i'm realistic about how capable the 4bangers are.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 01, 2011, 06:06:52 AM
I hear what your saying totalnz but when i'm catching 250f's on my 150 and I weigh 190lbs It seems like its gonna be alot easier on my 250. Not to mention other than washougal what track in the outdoors isnt ripped like 8 ft deep lol. I think they actually till it up too deep sometimes. But being ripped deep means more traction wich would deff play out to a 2 stroke better than that 250f. I just watched the expert class last weekend an 07 kx 144 railed a new 350sxf sure did sound awesome too!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 01, 2011, 09:06:00 AM
One thing you guys who say the 2 stroke 250's don't dominate, leave out... The fact that fast riders do not ride a 2 stroke. Unless they are KTM riders and even then it's iffy. Why?  Because they get bikes either really discounted or free, depending on the dealer.  For instance, and fact.  Brandon Haas went to a Yamaha 450F, after asking for a YZ250.  The dealer gave him a better deal on the 450F than a 250 2 stroke with 6 year old development.  How's that for a kick in the teeth.  He went with a 4 stroke, only because he was pressured into it. The dealer wouldn't budge on the 250 2 stroke price, even as a sponsored rider.   But the 450F, got thousands off.  250F's are even cheaper with those discounts. So not many fast riders will shell out an extra couple thousands, just because they want to.  Fact is, Bud Moore is doing very well against 450F's with his 2002 stock CR250R.  I sent him an intake, but other than that and a pipe, stock.  He has not had it ported yet. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 01, 2011, 10:27:38 AM
btw is buds 250 down? Last round he was on the pig......
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 01, 2011, 11:05:55 AM
This reply MUST be true!!! ...It's the same thing they say at Blumper Talk!

HERE'S THE WAY BACK HOME TO BLUMPERTALK (http://www.Thumpertalk.com)



Haha the official TSM...

(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/scrubbin627/troll1.jpg)

I can post links to =) (http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Cool-on-the-Internet)

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Shawn36 on August 01, 2011, 12:05:43 PM
One thing you guys who say the 2 stroke 250's don't dominate, leave out... The fact that fast riders do not ride a 2 stroke. Unless they are KTM riders and even then it's iffy. Why?  Because they get bikes either really discounted or free, depending on the dealer.  For instance, and fact.  Brandon Haas went to a Yamaha 450F, after asking for a YZ250.  The dealer gave him a better deal on the 450F than a 250 2 stroke with 6 year old development.  How's that for a kick in the teeth.  He went with a 4 stroke, only because he was pressured into it. The dealer wouldn't budge on the 250 2 stroke price, even as a sponsored rider.   But the 450F, got thousands off.  250F's are even cheaper with those discounts. So not many fast riders will shell out an extra couple thousands, just because they want to.  Fact is, Bud Moore is doing very well against 450F's with his 2002 stock CR250R.  I sent him an intake, but other than that and a pipe, stock.  He has not had it ported yet. 

You took a really long way around saying it, but the difference is now and has always been the rider.  You put the winning 250F guys on 2-strokes and they'll win.  All this talk about what gets better traction where doesn't mean anything when it comes down to skills and talent.  The advantage of a 2-stroke in the hands of any rider is simplicity and expense. 

I dunno what happened to Bud's CR but the last several times I've seen him over the past couple months he is back on his 4-stroke. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 01, 2011, 12:07:55 PM
Hahaha.


Anyways... 150ripper has a point. His bike was one of the only modern two strokes available. And he was actively catching 250fs on it. There was no lack of power there... You just have to know how to rip it and be on the right bike. Now if he can do that on the 150, why do you guys think that a bike with 100 more cc's can only do just that? Every 250 class here is dominated by two stroke 250s
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 01, 2011, 12:11:27 PM
must sound nice up there acmx, around here we have some fast guys on 2 strokes but its mostly farts with rev limiters. I could barely watch best whip the other night. Is that not the most obnoxious sound ever(four $trokes on rev limiter)?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 01, 2011, 12:24:21 PM
Oh I know it was too annoying listening to that.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TMKIWI on August 01, 2011, 01:22:36 PM
You took a really long way around saying it, but the difference is now and has always been the rider.  You put the winning 250F guys on 2-strokes and they'll win.

Correct.

Anyways... 150ripper has a point. His bike was one of the only modern two strokes available.
 

I think TotalNZ might disagree with you on that. ;D



Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 02, 2011, 02:46:24 AM
I had a conversation this weekend with a 450F rider. He was trying to trade his '96 125 for one of my Vintage bikes and as usual, I was preaching the advantages of the 2T. I brought up the costs, and he countered that the 450F has been dead reliable, no more expensive to maintain and makes more horsepower. He conceded that the 250F was a hand grenade with the pin pulled but the 450F was different. I took the bit and jumped on the horsepower comment but he had his facts, quoting the HP figures for the YZ250 and the CRF450F.

There I paused.

Was it totally acceptable that the 4$ was 85% bigger but only 7 more HP (or something like that)? I can accept the idea that as a racer, you want the best tool for the job and with today's rules, that means a 4$ MX'er. But what struck me as amazing was that there was never a consideration for equality. It never crossed his mind to compare a 450F with an open class 2T or a 250F with a 250 2T. He looked at me like I just told him to try square wheels.

I think we take for granted that the "delusional" 4$ riders recognize the 85% difference in the open class and the 100% difference in the lights class but I am coming to believe they do not. This very knowledgeable and experienced rider doesn't care about what's right or wrong, only what works. In the open class, you can ride a 450F or a 250 2T. He doesn't consider anything else just like we wouldn't consider racing a KLR300, a TS185, or any other "street bike with ground clearance".

We might be the "delusional" ones by thinking about what is RIGHT rather than what IS.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on August 02, 2011, 03:02:08 AM
They should have never mixed both motors into the same class.  An 03 and up yz250 standard bore is 66.4mm, while a 2011 yz250f standard bore is 77mm (A 78mm piston is about enough for a 370cc big bore kit for the YZ250 :o). Again with a different bike, the standard bore size for a 2001 cr500 is 89mm, while a 2011 crf450r standard bore is 96mm. So larger piston, smaller stroke, and you get a bike that will rev to 14k rpm.
Here is a good read, indulge yourselves:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve)
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2lv1i1l.jpg)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: citabjockey on August 02, 2011, 07:37:03 AM
Where we are NOT delusional is in the increased cost of racing due to cams and valves. Our sport would grow if it didn't cost so darn much. Would be better for all if rules made less costly 2T competitive which lowers the barriers to entry.

I don't think that horse is dead enough yet...   ;D



We might be the "delusional" ones by thinking about what is RIGHT rather than what IS.

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 02, 2011, 08:54:38 AM
I totally agree with you, citabjocky. However, sometimes I feel like I am the "dirty hippy" preaching peace when I should be the "Hawk" and opening up a can of woopass.

You can like whatever engine design you prefer but at the end of the day - and until the rules change or a new technology becomes available (DI?), the over priced - over engineered -  over weight 4$ will be the weapon to take to the fight.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 02, 2011, 10:54:16 AM
btw is buds 250 down? Last round he was on the pig......
Hmm, haven't spoken with him. I just texted him, but was kinda suspecting something. Texts came slowly lately.  That sucks, cuz he was doing good on it. Will wait to see what he says. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 02, 2011, 11:35:48 AM
450's aren't, have never been, and will never be the weapon to take to the fight, unless you are personally better suited to a 4 stroke. And neither are any of the other foopers. The fact is that until the industry began placing all their top purchased humans on 4 strokes out of desperation, almost no one could flog a hippo to any kind of race win.

Up to and including 2005, there was a mix of 2 and 4 stroke machines being ridden by the top stars. The problem for the powers that be was that this mixture of machine types was making the Flumpers they were trying to hype look pretty bad... Check out the video!
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrMJS1971#p/u/32/dpqnurJcDkc (http://www.youtube.com/user/MrMJS1971#p/u/32/dpqnurJcDkc)

The Flumper pushers tried to do everything they could to make the 4 strokes look good. They paid the announcers to gush on and on about how great 4 strokes were (Even if they were larding around the track patheticly) at every chance, while only referring to any 2 stroke bike out there kicking major ass as "the honda" or "the suzuki". The factories tried everything to make sure the right picture was being painted on TV, but in the end nothing was good enough because it's obvious to anyone watching the 2 types of machine compete side by side - WITH COMPARABLE RIDERS ON BOTH TYPES - that the 2 strokes are superior.

Having KDub, as the top 4 stroke finisher at the San Diego Supercross in 05, get LAPPED on his CRF450 by a bunch of guys on 250's sure didn't help make 4 strokes look good either...

In the end, the only way for the factories to get what they wanted out of their weekly TV commercial that's supposed to look like a racing series, was to eliminate 2 strokes from the action altogether by making all their wage slaves ride 4 strokes.      
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: chump6784 on August 02, 2011, 12:21:39 PM
As much as i like 2 strokes it seems to me sometimes that some of the people on here are delusional.

In response to Suzuki TS250/125, what about the outdoor national in 05 when Windham on his 450 was giving RC fits on his 250 2T. The GOAT himself couldnt make up for the lack of useable power.

The way the rules are 450's rule the open class and 250f's rule the lites class, riding a 2 stroke with those rules is putting yourself at a disadvantage. Now if all of America had the same rules as oz we may see something different. over here it is (up to) 250 class and (up to) 450 class, regardless of stroke for ALL motocross competition. Even still, 4 strokes are the biggest sellers. why? 2 reasons. 1st is advertising. 2nd, more people go the same speed or faster more consistently on a 4 stroke. they are easier to ride over a long period of time on more surfaces.

Some people like the way a 2 stroke hits but watch the video of RC riding his RM 250 in his back yard and listen to nearly the first thing that comes out of his mouth when he pulls his helmet off. Wow 4 strokes have come a long way, so much grip

he wasnt trying to sell 4 strokes, he was appreciating what they have become. it will take a special kind of rider to put a 2t, even with fair rules, around a track faster than a 4 stroke.

flame suit on
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 02, 2011, 12:26:51 PM
The goat wasn't on a 250 outdoors in 05.

Good line of reasoning though, keep working on it and try presenting it when you have at least a foggy idea of the facts.... mmmmkay?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 02, 2011, 12:37:51 PM
Having KDub, as the top 4 stroke finisher, get LAPPED on his CRF450 by a bunch of guys on 250's sure didn't help make 4 strokes look good either...      
K-Dub is a bad example...

2003 MX - comes back after a year off to ride a new 450. Won some moto's including a couple over all's and placed 2nd in the series behind Carmichael. Not to much lapping going on that season.....
2004 SX -  Season long battle with Reed including 5 wins. Second in the series again.....not much lapping going on that season either?
2004 MX - Not a season to write home about but still finished 3rd in the series. He was probably lapped a few times...
2005 SX - 3rd in the series behind Carmichael and Reed.
2005 MX - 2nd in the series again and the only guy to come close to Carmichael.
2006 SX - Sat out untill the end of the series
2006 MX - 2nd in the series again. By this time everyone is riding 450s

He's never been lapped by 'a bunch of guys' any time in his career.

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 02, 2011, 12:48:28 PM
flame suit on

I lol'd so hard

You'll need it in here. If your going to talk down on the all-mighty you better have your facts straight. lol
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 02, 2011, 01:03:40 PM
Kevin Windham is one of the greatest riders ever. No question about that.

KDub lapped (on 450cc FLUMPER) by at least a couple guys (on 250cc Motocross Bikes)
Ama Supercross 2005 San Diego Part 1. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogGPrvX0x68#)

Ama Supercross 2005 San Diego Part 2. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEX_EWWjP5Y#)

His incredible talent as a rider is one of the reasons I felt sorry for him when he had to go out there and wrestle that heavy fooper around the track. He should never have had to struggle like that, but when a big company starts throwing lots of money around and pulling strings and telling half truths in order to sell inferior garbage, people are bound to suffer. Most of all, the poor suckers who can't see through the marketing BS and end up buying some garbage with a large chunk of their own money. ::)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 02, 2011, 02:00:02 PM
Kevin Windham is one of the greatest riders ever. No question about that.

Atleast we agree on something  :)

Your talking about guys like Carmichael, Reed, LaRocco....those guys arent really human. Im sure there were days when the front runners would lap him but it didnt have anything to do with the motorcycle they were on, they were just better that day.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on August 02, 2011, 02:15:59 PM
Kevin Windham is one of the greatest riders ever. No question about that.

Atleast we agree on something  :)

Your talking about guys like Carmichael, Reed, LaRocco....those guys arent really human. Im sure there were days when the front runners would lap him but it didnt have anything to do with the motorcycle they were on, they were just better that day.

I Agree with with the not human comment, but the 250's were faster then. 2011-12 4 stroke motors/chassis's would run circles around older generation 4 strokes. They were heavy, and they didn't steer worth a flip. Especially Honda 4 strokes, lol.

I'm not going to lie, modern 4 stroke motors are marvels in the industry, but the fact that older 2 strokes(decade old) are only 1-4 seconds away isn't enough for me to go out and spend $10k on a new 4 stroke.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 02, 2011, 03:36:19 PM
Seriously, this argument gets so old. Everyone's delusional except the one's who will compare apples to apples. The 450F was NEVER suppose to be comparable to the 250 2 stroke.  It was suppose to eliminate it.  Right from the mouth of people at the top.  They won with Doug Henry on a 400, after that Yamaha stated, we can not consistantly guarantee that the 400 will always beat the 250 2 stroke so we feel the 450 is the number we need approved.  It wasn't about competing. I'd LOVE for anyone to show me in any of the big 4 companies outlook, where they felt they would R&D two competing top level mx bikes in the same category.  Does anyone really believe Honda was gonna R&D both 250 2 strokes and 450F's every year?  I have a bridge to sell in the desert if so.  They had plans, it just had to evolve.  People wouldn't switch from a 2 stroke to a 4 stroke over night ya know.
I seriously get perturbed by you guys on a 2 stroke forum consistantly comparing 250 2 strokes to 450fart machines.  They are not comparable.  The big class should be open cc's.  Put Andrew Short on a KTM 300XC build for SX, and I will show you better placings than this year.  Put Dungey on a 350SX 2 stroke (if KTM would listen to me), and he will be the SX champ in 2012.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 02, 2011, 05:28:14 PM
I mean it makes sense. To me as a rider why would I switch to a 400 if it wasn't faster. The oem's goal was to obliterate the 250 so every1 would think they would have to switch which is simply why I boycott honda or really any jap company for that reason they're stuborn think all that matters is there opinion. I hear thats just the japanese way in general if you dont like it tough shit thats cool I'll gladly keep giving ktm my money for awesome 2 strokes and superior european quality!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: xX JonthE Xx on August 02, 2011, 05:39:38 PM
(on 450cc FLUMPER) (on 250cc Motocross Bikes)

(http://knowyourmeme.com/i/681/original/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 02, 2011, 06:57:15 PM
I mean it makes sense. To me as a rider why would I switch to a 400 if it wasn't faster. The oem's goal was to obliterate the 250 so every1 would think they would have to switch which is simply why I boycott honda or really any jap company for that reason they're stuborn think all that matters is there opinion. I hear thats just the japanese way in general if you dont like it tough shit thats cool I'll gladly keep giving ktm my money for awesome 2 strokes and superior european quality!
Kinda like they were told having a nuke site at one of the most fault ridden areas in the world is a bad idea. Tough shit.  Now they say the same thing to the poor people, sending them in to clean up the mess, full well knowing the radiation is deathly high.  The top, just say tough shit, but im not going near it.   Yup.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: chump6784 on August 02, 2011, 07:09:13 PM
In saying what I said previous, I still think there is a place for two strokes in motocross. KTM seem to be on winner with their 150 as from all accounts and reviews I have read they are as fast or faster than a 250f. It could be the same with the 250sx but I have not heard or read how they compare to a 250f. I do however think that the 125 is dead except for 125 only classes. They just give up too much.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: luthier269 on August 02, 2011, 08:04:30 PM
It depends if your a pro or not. As I've said before my son compeats in the 250C class on a 2001 cr125 and is in 3rd place in seires points. The person leading the class is on a Yz125 and 2nd place is a Kx250 two-stroke. There are alot of 250f's in the class but show NO advantage over any two-stroke 125 or 250. Unless your a top pro it won't matter that much. Remember most Pro's have hand built engine that cost $20,000 to $40,000. And they change them out every race. Not something the average racer could aford to do. And if you do lap times most good 85's turn the same lap times as 450's. Adam Cianciarula lives near here and I've seen him race his 85 in the open A class and beat all of them and some are on the Pro circuit right now.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: streaks383 on August 02, 2011, 08:59:25 PM
Look at the lap times at LL right now.  The top six 65cc riders are running faster laps than the last eight 450A riders.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: chump6784 on August 03, 2011, 01:19:29 AM
i am just speaking from my personal experience. my last year of racing was 2001, the year that 250f's were introduced. for the last round of a series i was racing in a guy that i would race closely with got a 250f and if he got the start i could not get round him. i could catch him through the tighter sections but the next straight and he was gone. our lap times were probably withing 1/2 a second of eachother but being down on power ment that if he got in front that was it. all i could do was push him and hope for a mistake.

i believe that a 2 stroke can go as fast or faster than a 4 stroke but its like every article i have read says, you have got to be switched on to ride a 2 stroke. it will make you a better rider but can also be a disadvantage as at the end of a long moto when mistakes usually occur, you cant afford to make any.

with DI coming, which is supposed to boost low end power, the 2 strokes may gain some ground but traction will still be the 2 strokes downside
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on August 03, 2011, 01:28:51 AM
 An 03 and up yz250 standard bore is 66.4mm, while a 2011 yz250f standard bore is 77mm (A 78mm piston is about enough for a 370cc big bore kit for the YZ250 :o). Again with a different bike, the standard bore size for a 2001 cr500 is 89mm, while a 2011 crf450r standard bore is 96mm. So larger piston, smaller stroke, and you get a bike that will rev to 14k rpm.
Was this completely ignored? ???
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 03, 2011, 01:38:35 AM
There is a lot of mudslinging here but we are all saying the same thing and it is distracting us from issue.

We all agree that the industry (to include the major racing organizations) have conspired to eliminate the 2T.

We all agree that the 'modern 4$ motocross' bike is has raised the cost of racing beyond the range of the original target audience and into the realm of the super-rich.

We all agree that AMA and FIM Pro Racing should adopt equality rules (such as are in ANA Amateur Racing - and if your amateur racing series isn't using the 2011 AMA rules, YOU should petition they do so.)

The people that believe the 4$ is better are not wrong. They have not "drunk the Kool-Aid" or been "assimilated by the borg of corporate advertising". They have weighed their options and determined that they can compete better on the 4$, even at greater cost, given the rules they must compete under.

I concede that there are a lot of people uneducated in the advantages of the 2T out there, and quite a few (stupid, stubborn, argumentative, afraid of change - insert appropriate adjective here) people as well. And that is fine because it allows me to still be in front of someone else, and that is getting rarer and rarer these days.

But delusional they are not (OK some probably are, I'm trying to be diplomatic).  It is us that keep harping on the IF's (i.e. if the AMA would..., if the manufacturers would...). Until we focus on the DOES (i.e. the next Carmichael does destroy the competition on the new 2015 Yamaha DI 250 2T), we are leaning toward the delusional.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on August 03, 2011, 02:52:00 AM
Of course people are going to take every opportunity while racing, and if that includes buying 4 stroke mx bikes, fine. But the problem is that not everyone is out to win races, so why would you need a top of the line bike that cost $8k-$10k and is only good for one thing, racing? The point of this article was pointing out how people say 4 strokes in general are more powerful, reliable, and are indeed the way of the future. The "majority" of the 4 stroke buying public are people who bought into this lie. There for they are indeed delusional, even if they were mislead. The information I posted is why and how they are delusional.

So at this point we know Who, What, Where, How, and why. So what are we going to do about it? Is there a donation box for someone to build EFI/DI 2 stroke mx bike? Is there a EFI/DI forum where we can discuss/post information. There is so much that we can do and no one has made the initiative to do something. 20 years of stagnation has really put the 2two stroke behind, and from a racing point of view its chances of recovering are at a 50/50.

Another issue is people need to get over the whole "I hate EFI" Or "Carbs work just fine" point of view. If you want to keep using your decade old bike fine, but if there is room for improvement why not do it. They work great in Sleds, they work Great in boat motors, and they also work great 2 stroke diesel applications.  
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Shawn36 on August 03, 2011, 08:58:00 AM
Another issue is people need to get over the whole "I hate EFI" Or "Carbs work just fine" point of view. If you want to keep using your decade old bike fine, but if there is room for improvement why not do it. They work great in Sleds, they work Great in boat motors, and they also work great 2 stroke diesel applications.  

That's certainly true, there is always room for improvement but that comes at a cost doesn't it.  Is a new EFI or DI 2-stroke going to be affordable or are we just gonna be looking at another 8-10k motorcycle?  I think everyone agrees the advantage of a current 2-stroke is they cost less to produce and maintain.  Taking away half that advantage doesn't make it as appealing when the dealer is willing to give you that 2 year old floor model 4-stroke for 2k off sticker, but he wants full price for the 8k 2-stroke. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 03, 2011, 10:45:36 AM
my whole reason for the "delusional" comment was them talking about the power of a 125 like is was some dog and incapable of jumping things a 250f could jump basically saying a 125 couldnt make this 100ft table top and this wasnt a jump like close to a corner or anything it was a long enough run up to hit 4th pinned. I bet Adam C could make it on his super mini. Then they were carrying on how the 2 stroke was dead and that his race 250f would hand a 250 2 stroke its ass I bet you it wouldn't beat this bike with a pro on it

(http://twostrokemotocross.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/258X6036.jpg)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TMKIWI on August 03, 2011, 01:21:31 PM
The key word here is modern. A modern 250 would probably smear a modern 250f ... but there are none. Quote

I keep hearing people say this but what has really changed in the last 5 years. Leaving the motor aside a 2010 YZ250 has the same chassis as the 05. The 10' YZF has the same chassis as the YZ but with the frame spars fitted back to front and different suspension valving. Nothing much has changed in chassis design just tweeks here and there. Put new suspension components on a 05' RM250 and it will handle as well as anything new.
On the motor side the modern F is a piece of engineering marvel. But at a price. Using F1 technology we know have 4 strokes no one would have thought of 15 years ago. They are as far removed from an XR as you could get. The problem is for a factory race team they are a great race motor under the rules we have. For Joe Smoe they are an expensive toy to have to race just to finish around 20th.
If you want to win you now need a trust fund. The good thing about that now is where there is cc v cc racing guys now have the option to go back to a bike which is cheaper to run.

Forget about the pro's. You will just argue until you are blue in the face.

What I think is funny is with all the millions thrown at 4 strokes over the last 11 years they are still not noticably faster then a 2 stroke which hasn't had any real engine development over the last 15 years. ;D

That must piss the F**K out of the managment of the big 4. :P

Just goes to show what a simple and effective engine the 2 stroke is.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: EJ on August 03, 2011, 01:51:30 PM

I agree that the new techniques must be better in every aspect, and also reliable and affordable!
I'm guessing the first few models will have their flaws and hiccups, altho I'm not reluctant to the new stuff.
But, untill it works just as flawless on a dirtbike than on boats and sleds, I'll stick to the carb.

Also,
will the newer future 2Ttechniques and engine design really bring fair and equal rules,
or will they continue to handicap and belittle the 2T ? ? ?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: luthier269 on August 03, 2011, 02:03:28 PM
You talk about the guy that got a 250f and ran away from you but I have a story about a guy that won his seires on a KTM125 in the 250 class and the next year bought two new crf250's had a terible year and went back to his KTM125 cause he could turn fast lap times and is winning again. Also the statment that there are no moderen 250 two-strokes is not true have you seen the 2012 KTM250? or a GAS GAS. Also late in the race lugging around an extra 10 to 20 lbs will slow you down also. I remember when they changed the amateur rule 250 to 250 how the four stroke guys were having a stroke saying Thats not fair!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: yo_marc on August 03, 2011, 02:24:47 PM
One thing that bugs me about the fours stroke MX bikes --- We've had the Yamaha R6 sportbike on the market for a while now.  Since '99.  That thing will rev well up to 15,000 rpm, AND last ya well over 50,000, 75,000, maybe 100K miles, with valve adjustments every 24k miles or so.

The big four seem to be in such a HP war, that the modern MX thumpers are tuned way too hot to have that kind of durability.  Pull them back like 5hp, or spend a little extra on durable valvetrain parts, so that the have some durability that's normally associated with 4-strokes,.. and I wonder if as many people would be as upset about them.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 03, 2011, 02:51:48 PM
Forget about the pro's. You will just argue until you are blue in the face.

This. It may be the new rules, the big 4, the AMA, whatever........there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 03, 2011, 03:20:20 PM
Forget about the pro's. You will just argue until you are blue in the face.

This. It may be the new rules, the big 4, the AMA, whatever........there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now

hasn't more than 1 person qualified on a 2 stroke this year?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: citabjockey on August 03, 2011, 03:36:01 PM
OOOOhhhhh!!!!! tell me more about that bike! Have not heard this rumor before!  ;D

the new 2015 Yamaha DI 250 2T
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 03, 2011, 04:18:04 PM
It may be the new rules, the big 4, the AMA, whatever........there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now

Someone's talking out their Foop hole again... Every 2 stroke board needs a closet fooper I guess...

Here's a video where the announcers spend a Lot of time making excuses for the bikes that are "To good now..." It's absolutely hilarious! They're right in the middle of talking about how Factory Fonda now has to change these croaking concraptions out after EVERY MOTO... and just as they're discussing that, the lead FOOPER poops out... ;D

In fact, they spend more time in this segment making excuses for garbage bikes than I can ever recall... And... Keep in mind this is FACTORY garbage, not the less robust dust collectors that no one's buying off the deserted showroom floors in the shrinking (Or dissapearing) dealerships all over the good'ol USA!

2011 AMA Motocross 450s RD2 Freestone Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-cxkUw-C3I#ws)

Here's another one - THIS ONE'S KIND OF FUNNY TOO! Start watching from 11:40 unless you want to watch a great race - where a 125 is jumping all the jumps. After Tedesco's bike craps out and he kicks it to the ground as hard as he can, be sure to stay for Millsaps's bike giving up the Foop about a millisecond later.... In his interview, he sounds exactly like many 4 stroke owners I'm sure you've consoled before as they realize, usually about mid way through Saturday Morning, that their weekend of riding is over.... Along with maybe next week, maybe the week after... hell who knows how long it can drag on! And that's assuming they have another pile of money to throw into the crapper!

2004 Kenworthy Motocross 125cc - Moto 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S64krpHu4ak#)

Those bikes are just too good... yeah


Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 03, 2011, 07:58:45 PM
Here we go....Im a closet fooper because Im not delusional? Some of you guys need to get real.

YES, they can still make a national per say but they wont be running anywere near the front. Its usually a local A rider running somewere outside the top 20. I bet you can count the number of 2 strokes that have been out there this season on 2 hands. Not being a dik....its the truth!

They need to just make a national 2 stroke class so everyone would be happy.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 03, 2011, 08:06:42 PM
bro it sounds like your the one that needs to get real if those guys were on 450's in my estimate may finish 1 or 2 spots better its not like getting on the pig is all of the sudden gonna make them a top 10 guys cmon bro. I dont think any1 here is being ridiculous we know pros are gonna be faster on 450's but if your not winning anyways whats the point honestly. Then again we're comparing bikes that are 200cc's apart!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 03, 2011, 09:01:30 PM
bro it sounds like your the one that needs to get real if those guys were on 450's in my estimate may finish 1 or 2 spots better its not like getting on the pig is all of the sudden gonna make them a top 10 guys cmon bro. I dont think any1 here is being ridiculous we know pros are gonna be faster on 450's but if your not winning anyways whats the point honestly. Then again we're comparing bikes that are 200cc's apart!

Were talking about pro's at the nationals man. They use it all...every inch it has. So yes, being on a "pig" makes them faster. Those few guys making it on 2 strokes are at a clear disadvantage in that class, hats off to them for sure. Like you said yourself its a 200cc disadvantage, why even try?

At the local level all bets are off. Ive seen 250 2 strokes clean house many many times in the open class.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 03, 2011, 10:27:11 PM
You talk about the guy that got a 250f and ran away from you but I have a story about a guy that won his seires on a KTM125 in the 250 class and the next year bought two new crf250's had a terible year and went back to his KTM125 cause he could turn fast lap times and is winning again. Also the statment that there are no moderen 250 two-strokes is not true have you seen the 2012 KTM250? or a GAS GAS. Also late in the race lugging around an extra 10 to 20 lbs will slow you down also. I remember when they changed the amateur rule 250 to 250 how the four stroke guys were having a stroke saying Thats not fair!

How modern are those bikes though?

I was mainly talking about a DI 250. Thats what I'd call modern.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 04, 2011, 02:50:10 AM
OOOOhhhhh!!!!! tell me more about that bike! Have not heard this rumor before!  ;D

the new 2015 Yamaha DI 250 2T

Oh I knew someone would call me out on that!   :P

ALL - I made it up to support my statement.  ;D

I am not starting a rumor. I have no more contact with the Yamaha Motorcycle Corporation.  :-X
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 04, 2011, 02:50:51 AM
We can lay the blame at the feet of the manufacturers (Big 4+1) but they are in the business of making money, not racing machines (that is the job of the race teams). The AMA and the FIM are 100% to blame.

It was the AMA and the FIM who changed the rules, the tracks, and the incentives for racing that lead to our current situation. It was the AMA and the FIM that bowed to external pressure from the lobbyists (manufactures from Japan, TV and racing promoters) and totally disregarded the members of their organizations. And it is only the AMA and the FIM that can fix it.

And I apologize to those members of other nations beyond Europe and the USA (i.e. Aussies, Kiwi's, Japanese, etc). You have strong national bodies and excellent racing series but to truly influence a change in the sport, it will have to come from the combined might of the FIM or the purchasing power of the USA (thus the AMA).

We are here discussing 2T's and their exclusion in modern Pro MX but what is wrong with our sport and why did it get this way? Cost, compensation and unworkable class determinations.

At one point racing became too expensive, even to the big manufacturers so they cooperatively decided that it was better to lower the costs for the few and spread the costs for the many. They lobbied the AMA and FIM and they collectively agreed since they just witnessed the end of the British and Spanish motorcycle industries, the self destruction and greed in the German industry, and the rise and power of the Japanese, this was the best course of action. This lead to "production" based bikes and the end of the "Works Era". I don't think this was an evil scheme. Only the 10 best or most promising riders got the really good equipment which made it impossible for the privateer to even come close. Of course, now as then, you need train loads of cash to really compete, but in the heyday of MX, the factory riders had unobtanium.

This is where the AMA et al failed. Yes, the "Works" bikes disappeared but the cost of racing rose beyond what was invested in the works era. When "Privateer" Chad Reed was talking about starting his own team this season, he said he had a lot of help; Bel-Ray, engines by Pro Circuit, even some support from Honda. Yet, he also sank "several million dollars" of his own money into the adventure. Those were his words "several million dollars of my own money". Having to buy Pro Circuit, Eric Gorr, or some other skunk works engines is more than most pros can afford especially with no purse money.

Sure, the manufacturers pay contingency money, and you get sponsors, and your mum lets you eat at home and slips you beer money once in a while but really, where does a pro rider derive income? Well it used to be from racing. There was gate money and points money to be earned. Guys could race 4 days a week in Southern California, at least twice a week most places elsewhere. You were not going to get rich without a lucrative sponsorship but you got to ride! That's really why we do this. Not for the girls, the bling, or the t-shirt with your image on it.

Now, promoters get monopoly rights to AMA and FIM Pro Racing and they sell those rights to local promoters to host events. For FIM World Championship event, the cost is close to $500,000! Riders have to PAY a $1500 entry fee! It is no wonder that we are 1/2 way through the season and only have 52 riders in the points! 52? The signup for each event is limited to 90 with 40 going to the mains and only 52 in the points?

Finally, I'd like to address the classes. Two things happened. First, the old rule allowing up to double displacement for 4 strokes, and second, the demise of the 500 class. You really have to marvel at the modern 4$ engine. Compare that to an old Honda XL or BSA motor and it is night and day. You really have to respect the blood and sweat that went into it. But it's shit. You still can't compare it equally to available tech  (i.e. the 2T). Now I've said elsewhere that what the AMA and FIM need to do is define classes based upon what outcome they want to achieve. What are the goals? Unbridled speed? Emissions? Age? Gas mileage? Set the classes up like that. For instance, using gas mileage as an example, a 2 liter class would only allowed 2 liters of fuel per moto. "Run what you brung" but that is all you get. If you can make a fire breathing 500cc 2T motor last 45 minutes in the Florida (or Belgian) sand, more power too you (no pun intended)! Divisions based upon cylinder capacity are not working and will not work as we expand into the alternate fuel era!

The 500cc 2T class ended not because the AMA and the FIM were evil but because turn-out for the events declined. Less people bought the monsters until only 2 brands; Honda and Kawasaki even made them. (OK, I know that KTM, Husqvarna and some others did as well but they were not competitive.) Only our nostalgia makes us dream of their return. Now the FIM and AMA are talking about LOWERING the premier class yet again. Maybe to 350! This time it is for safety, but the conspiracy theorist in me says it is the manufacturers again. The 450F is pretty reliable since it is never pushed too hard but the 250F is a hand grenade. I 350 will break more (hand grenade like the 250F because it is pushed harder for the same result) causing us to buy more bikes and parts.

So in conclusion, if "you made me king" (or if the AMA/FIM asked me to fix motocross), I would:
#1 Change pro mx rules to be 2 classes: Pro and Junior Pro.
 - "Pro" would be any motorcycle that passed tech for safety, sound and emissions with any rider over 21 years of age.
 - "Pro Junior" would be would be any motorcycle less than 200cc that passed tech for safety, sound and emissions with any rider under 21 years of age. This would allow for youth to grow and have longer careers.

#2 Lower the cost charged to promoters for holding an event but make the difference a bond to be paid to all riders making the main event motos. Lowest denomination should be $1000.

#3 Throw away the production rule and the homologation rule, and replace it by a "Tear Down" rule. First three finishing positions WILL be torn down, inspected and documented. That documentation is shared publically. No secrets. This should limit the amount of unobtanium the factories throw at it but still allow for innovation. It would also allow for small industry to be involved. The likes of TM, Gas Gas, Maico, and the tuners of the past like FMF, Rickman, DG,  etc to build and race motocross at the highest levels.

Whew! My fingers hurt. I need a beer.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: EJ on August 04, 2011, 03:38:24 AM
Goood post!!!
The first 2 sentences you wrote are spot on.
Therefor you deserve at least 2 beers!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 04, 2011, 05:34:38 AM
Snook, It's painfully obvious over the time you've been here, that you may like two strokes to some degree, but are definitely 4 stroke pro sided.  When you say the 4 strokes are better, you, to us, are one of the delusionals.  They aren't better, if they were better, then ProAMA would have changed the rules to allow 150cc and 300cc two strokes. Or even better, they would have allowed the rules in ProAMA to match that of AMA.  For 40 some years, they had the same rules in both pro and amatuer. All of a sudden, to keep pushing the 4 stroke agenda, they make them different.  Trust me when we say.  ProAMA and FIM make the rules 125cc, 250cc and open, 4 strokes in MX will cease to exist.  Why do you think team owners that doesn't have a 2 stroke lineup screamed and yelled at ProAMA meetings, that they better not allow the cc vs cc rules.  That is a FACT.  
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on August 04, 2011, 06:23:11 AM
Great posts.
 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 04, 2011, 09:19:35 AM
I hate to keep coming back too this but we are all saying the same things, only different.

I assume that Snook (and I guess I) do not think the 450F is a better bike than any other, only that under TODAY'S RULES, it is better than any 2T offering that MEETS TODAY'S RULES.

As good as the 2012 KTM 250SX is (the only 2012 2T bike on the AMA 'approved list'), it is still not the equal of the 450F's. Yes, Carmichael might be able to win on it. But he ain't comin' back and no new hot shoes are on the horizon.

I am 100% behind you though that the AMA Pro Racing (and the FIM for that matter) should adopt the AMA Amateur and ProAm class rules. Truth be told, those rules were a bird dog to keep the membership from cleaning house and not revolting against AMA leadership. The manufacturers hate it and MOST amateur racing organizations are not following it. Just like in Europe, everyone is using the Pro Class rules.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 04, 2011, 10:22:09 AM
ya i can agree to that. A 450 better be faster than a 250 lol. I was just saying if your a poor privateer and your not gonna win anyways and could still qualify on a 250 why would you waste the money? And I thought some were saying a 250f is pretty close to the power of a 250 and I know they could compete on a dry slick track but what track on the outdoor nationals is dry and slick....... none that I know of?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 04, 2011, 10:44:50 AM
ya i can agree to that. A 450 better be faster than a 250 lol. I was just saying if your a poor privateer and your not gonna win anyways and could still qualify on a 250 why would you waste the money? And I thought some were saying a 250f is pretty close to the power of a 250 and I know they could compete on a dry slick track but what track on the outdoor nationals is dry and slick....... none that I know of?
The one exception to this whole dealio about 2 vs 4 in the Pro ranks. Cedric did win some SX overseas. Just sayin.  :-)  Carmichael in his prime would still be smokin that Azz with a 2012 RM250 updated to current. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 08, 2011, 06:09:53 PM
Snook, It's painfully obvious over the time you've been here, that you may like two strokes to some degree, but are definitely 4 stroke pro sided.

I understand. I probably just seem 4 stroke pro sided when were talking about racing, every time it comes up I dont make any friends =(. Per the current rules 4 strokes rule professional motocross. Like you said it isnt fair.

Ive grown up riding/racing 2 strokes same as you, they will always be special to me but it doesnt mean I believe they are the best design to ever hit the dirt. They are not. It may seem crazy to you but I like the 450s in the nationals. I like watching the higher pace, I think its great for racing. If you watch a race from the late 90's it looks like a local C class compared to the pace they are runnig now.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: EJ on August 08, 2011, 06:44:16 PM
From the 2005 season and onwards, the Outdoor Nationals have slightly lost their appeal to me.
I really enjoyed the 1998-2004 period, where 2 Strokes and 4 Strokes were batteling.
(Although it was under UNFAIR cc rules!!!)
Nowdays it's only 4 strokes, so I turn down the sound volume while watching cuz it's boring,
and the commentary is a REAL joke... Commentary was better and more enjoyable a few years ago.
I still blame the modern high revving 4 stroke concept (and the makers of the 4T brainwash hype,
and UNFAIR rules) for ruining a lot in MX / Offroad sport and hobby, in such a short time.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 08, 2011, 06:54:06 PM
I really miss david bailey. I loved his commentary
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 08, 2011, 07:21:51 PM
Snook, It's painfully obvious over the time you've been here, that you may like two strokes to some degree, but are definitely 4 stroke pro sided.

I understand. I probably just seem 4 stroke pro sided when were talking about racing, every time it comes up I dont make any friends =(. Per the current rules 4 strokes rule professional motocross. Like you said it isnt fair.

Ive grown up riding/racing 2 strokes same as you, they will always be special to me but it doesnt mean I believe they are the best design to ever hit the dirt. They are not. It may seem crazy to you but I like the 450s in the nationals. I like watching the higher pace, I think its great for racing. If you watch a race from the late 90's it looks like a local C class compared to the pace they are runnig now.


The higher pace is not a good thing. Hence they got ride of the 500 class. You saw what happened to reed. Doubt it would have happened on a 125. You always want to lessen the pace of a motocross track. Heightening the pace is dangerous.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 08, 2011, 07:26:05 PM
Snook, It's painfully obvious over the time you've been here, that you may like two strokes to some degree, but are definitely 4 stroke pro sided.
Ive grown up riding/racing 2 strokes same as you, they will always be special to me but it doesnt mean I believe they are the best design to ever hit the dirt. They are not. It may seem crazy to you but I like the 450s in the nationals. I like watching the higher pace, I think its great for racing. If you watch a race from the late 90's it looks like a local C class compared to the pace they are runnig now.
Snook, sorry to bust your theory. But it ain't the 4 strokes that make them any faster.  It is truely a faster group.  I raced in the late 90's to early 2000's ProAMA. My number was 725. I will say this for sure.  The group now, including the fastest of them, are faster than they were back then. The bikes are better, handling, suspension and power.  But put Chad Reed on a CR500AF detuned to smooth power, and he will be just the same place he was on the 450F.  These guys are riding differently everywhere. We did not scrub, we didn't do alot of things I see them do now.  The kids coming up are being trained at an early age. So there are more RC's and Bubbas than there were back then too.  But let us ask this question too you.  If you think the 450F's are so fast, then why is it, the 250F's are only 2 seconds a lap slower? If not faster on some tracks. Do you think a 250 2 stroke would compete in the 250 class, if rode by the top guys?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 08, 2011, 08:21:38 PM
The higher pace is not a good thing. Hence they got ride of the 500 class. You saw what happened to reed. Doubt it would have happened on a 125. You always want to lessen the pace of a motocross track. Heightening the pace is dangerous.

I agree, from a riders prospective they are going to fast. Its still fun to watch right?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 08, 2011, 08:49:41 PM
it is cool to see them really haul ass. But another thing I hate about it being 4 $troke only is ONE LINED TRACKS!!! other than hangtown budds and red bud it gets really one lined so basically most of the time one of the ryans or chad gets in first and no moves are made it's actually kinda boring. And the 250f class this year is just straight up nap time for me other than high point the procircuit domination has sucked!!!!!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 08, 2011, 08:52:25 PM
Snook, sorry to bust your theory. But it ain't the 4 strokes that make them any faster.

Then....

Quote from: meidosoracing
The bikes are better, handling, suspension and power.
Kind of contradicting yourself. Sorry to bust your theory but it isnt just the riders.

Quote from: meidosoracing
I raced in the late 90's to early 2000's ProAMA. My number was 725. I will say this for sure.  The group now, including the fastest of them, are faster than they were back then.

I completely agree. So are the motorcycles....

Quote from: meidosoracing
Do you think a 250 2 stroke would compete in the 250 class, if rode by the top guys?
We talked about this earlier in the thread. Yes, I think under the right circumstances a 250 2t could win in the lites class. I think it would be a good match-up....one is faster while the other handles better. Like someone said above, it was pretty cool seeing them both racing on the same track. 2004-2005 natonals were pretty awesome
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 08, 2011, 09:33:19 PM
"The bikes are better, handling, suspension and power.
Kind of contradicting yourself. Sorry to bust your theory but it isnt just the riders."

No, I'm not contradicting myself.  You said it was just the 4 strokes. Even 2 strokes, like the KTM 250SX is faster than it was back in the 90's. Try riding a 99 KTM 250SX, CR250, RM250, YZ250, KX250 compared to a 2012 250SX and get back to me, about how they are the same.  Bikes in general are better today then back in the late 90's. Fact.  
4 strokes is not the key. It's evolution of our sport.  Riders and bikes both.  Give every one of the 450F guys a 350cc 2 stroke, and they will be just as fast. So saying a 4 stroke is the reason is just delusional. Now, saying it's unfair rules, then maybe.  But I still stand behind my point about the riders are faster. I would not qualify for the night qualifiers today, even on my fastest day, on a 450.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 08, 2011, 11:17:10 PM
You said it was just the 4 strokes.


Were did I say that? I didnt. Nor did I say a 450 could magically make anyone (like yourself) fast. I agreed it was the riders AND the motorcycles making the pace what it is today.

I think the difference between me and you is Im more of a race fan than a 2 stroke fan. Im not trying to down the 2 stroke but the origional post was about a PRO saying one motorcycle is better than another. Wrong or right, he's definetly faster and made more money than any of us here so IMO his opinon does not make him delusional.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 08, 2011, 11:24:23 PM
You said it was just the 4 strokes.


Were did I say that? I didnt. Nor did I say a 450 could magically make anyone (like yourself) fast. I agreed it was the riders AND the motorcycles making the pace what it is today.

I think the difference between me and you is Im more of a race fan than a 2 stroke fan. Im not trying to down the 2 stroke but the origional post was about a PRO saying one motorcycle is better than another. Wrong or right, he's definetly faster and made more money than any of us here so IMO his opinon does not make him delusional.
"there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now"


"Were talking about pro's at the nationals man. They use it all...every inch it has. So yes, being on a "pig" makes them faster. Those few guys making it on 2 strokes are at a clear disadvantage in that class, hats off to them for sure. Like you said yourself its a 200cc disadvantage, why even try? "
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 08, 2011, 11:32:42 PM
Forget about the pro's. You will just argue until you are blue in the face.

This. It may be the new rules, the big 4, the AMA, whatever........there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now

Were in this post did I say just the 4 strokes anywere. I said the rules give them an advantage.

Jeez my head hurts. Is anyone on here allowed to disagree with you?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 08, 2011, 11:34:16 PM
For the record, it wasn't about any Pro stating anything. It was a Pro's dad.  Someone who hasn't ever ridden a Pro Circuit KX250, and who's son, most likely has not either.  If they were to ride a KX250 Built by Mitch to compete in the 250cc class, he would see how delusional he is saying a 250F is not comparable to a 250 2 stroke.  
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 08, 2011, 11:36:30 PM
"Were talking about pro's at the nationals man. They use it all...every inch it has. So yes, being on a "pig" makes them faster. Those few guys making it on 2 strokes are at a clear disadvantage in that class, hats off to them for sure. Like you said yourself its a 200cc disadvantage, why even try? "

I think your trying to make a point here but Im just not getting it.

For the record, it wasn't about any Pro stating anything. It was a Pro's dad.  Someone who hasn't ever ridden a Pro Circuit KX250, and who's son, most likely has not either.  If they were to ride a KX250 Built by Mitch to compete in the 250cc class, he would see how delusional he is saying a 250F is not comparable to a 250 2 stroke. 

Ok man. Your absolutly right. Lets move on.....
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 08, 2011, 11:56:01 PM
My point? That people like you say that 4 strokes are just so good. Second, that you said in one breath a 450 wouldn't make me as a Pro any faster, but then claim a 250 2 stroke held back the guys qualifying this year. But is it really about the 4 stroke, or is it truely about the cc's?  Because I get the vibe as others here, that to you, it's about the 4 stroke being that good, via your "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now" type statements over and over.  It's not about that, it's clearly about the cc's.  So is it really about how good the modern 4 strokes are?  I personally don't care about the pro side of things. The amateur side is moving back to 2 strokes pretty fast.  AMA districts are much much more fluid with 2 strokes than the last 4 years or so.  The practice tracks have many more here in the Texas area as well.  I don't race anymore, so can't tell you about those races locally. I do know the rules are now fair though here.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TMKIWI on August 09, 2011, 01:47:37 AM
Chill out miedosoracing. You seem to like argueing with people. ( I visit Vital now and then )

What snook said and was repeated by Vintage. : UNDER THE CURRANT RULES A 4 STROKE IS BETTER. Under the Pro rules.

I dont think that is a inflammatory statement, Just a sad truth.

Every time this sort of discussion comes up people missunderstand which set of rules are being talked about.

Now hugs & kisses everyone. ;D

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 09, 2011, 02:56:53 AM
A 250 2 Stroke is enough to beat a factory FOOPER, if the 2 stroke has a factory pilot.

That's why they're scared to give out a few more cc's. They have an illusion to maintain, and they need all the help in the world to maintain it since it's based on a lie right from the foudation up.

Ty Newcome qualified in 40th position at High Point, and in the second moto, he ran as high as 16nth place well into the moto way after the initial stratification of the first few laps. Not bad for a guy in his first national. No one who's still struggling to sell ALL 4 of the 250SXF's they brought in for 2011 along with a whole pile of other rotting FOOPERS wants to have a Ty Newcome get up front on a garage built YZ. Fact is I'm sure they'd prefer he's not there at all. That goes for fooper dealers and fooper builders. 

FOOPER sellers have enough of a nightmare ahead of them right now trying to sell their garbage. The "4 Stokes are superior and SO fast... that laptimes are coming way down... and it's NOT because the track is 1/4 mile shorter than it was when we ran 2 stroks here...." illusion is falling to pieces on multiple fronts, and it's showing through in things like Husaberg ONLY importing their 2 strokes for 2012. Everywhere you look, there is concrete evidence of a growing interest in 2 strokes. Everwhere you look there's evidence that the industry is aware of the growing 2 stroke markets and is moving to satisfy them. There's no need for advertisment, people are actively seeking the bikes out and buying them. It's the most profitable way to do business! Why would a company spend money on expensive stage combat, (pro racing) to sell products that sell themselves so well???

They would not...and don't. At least not in the MX/SX arena.

There is only 1 reason why you're not going to see any 2 strokes out front at the pro MX/SX races. The reason is that pro racing is an expensive tv commercial. The actors are very expensive to buy, and they have to be paid for and reared practically from the time they're just 50cc hatchlings.

The reason for buttering all that baby food is so that the impressionable part of the bike buying market will have a built in tendency to walk into a showroom and buy what they saw blow up and roll off the track with steam rising out of it on TV. 

 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 09, 2011, 05:27:40 AM
sometime's it really is hard to continue participating in a sport that has almost no integrity or class. Over at vital this guy was asking DC about the 250 vs 250 rule and of course the man was gutted by the fooper lovers but DC continued on his It's not up to me it's the oem's I have no power in the matter blah blah blah. So the man asking about the rule proceeds to ask DC who he needs to contact to ask questions and an explanation on why they feel the two strokes who are supposedly "antique" and "out dated" are an unfair advantage. Anyways The owner/whatever he is of the site says he's most likely delete the thread then goes on about the whole speak with your wallet bullshit. I said in a somewhat smart ass way, why not make a suffering sport cheaper, then this guyb pulls the whole "your not a racer card" I dont recall hearing about guyb racing. His site actually reminds me of the ama/oem's treat the ppl who make your job possible like shit. Great business plan there buddy anyways here's the discusion.

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/DC-you-emailed-me-a-while-back,1222023?page=7 (http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/Moto-Related,20/DC-you-emailed-me-a-while-back,1222023?page=7)


Luckily there was a video posted on there of MC riding a two stroke to help remind me of why I love to ride, as it's getting harder to support a sport ran by freakin kiss asses
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 09, 2011, 06:05:24 AM
Chill out miedosoracing. You seem to like argueing with people. ( I visit Vital now and then )

What snook said and was repeated by Vintage. : UNDER THE CURRANT RULES A 4 STROKE IS BETTER. Under the Pro rules.

I dont think that is a inflammatory statement, Just a sad truth.

Every time this sort of discussion comes up people missunderstand which set of rules are being talked about.

Now hugs & kisses everyone. ;D


yeah, I love to argue on the forums. :P   But hey, i only do it, because people keep saying the same thing, and that ticks me off. They continuely say how good the 4 strokes are. I don't get it.  They are not better in any way shape form or fashion.  They are not "that good."  They are just given a handicap. Plain and simple.  Give me a double stroke handicap and I'll kick Tigers ass.  Does that make me better at golf than Tiger?  Just because the rules give me that handicap? So there  :-*
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TMKIWI on August 09, 2011, 06:31:55 AM
I agree with you meidos on the fact that 4 strokes are not a better bike. cc' for cc'
But I do believe under your currant PRO rules they are the better CHOICE.
Is it fair. NO , But that is what you have at the moment.

Change it back to 250=250 , Open=Open.
You would be suprised at how close a 250 2 stroke and a 250F is in lap times with a Pro onboard.
Both bikes have their + & - at different tracks.
The big difference is you dont have to spend 20K with Pro-Circuit to make your smoker quicker.
Or another 5K on Titanium bolts. :(
For the "Average racer" who is not getting paid $1M a year ( which is most racers ) the 2 stroke is by far the better option.

PS. We have FAIR racing down in this part of the world. ;D
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 09, 2011, 10:41:44 AM

Change it back to 250=250 , Open=Open.
You would be suprised at how close a 250 2 stroke and a 250F is in lap times with a Pro onboard.
Both bikes have their + & - at different tracks.

As usual, I am here to agree with you. I have been looking at lap times for a few years now for unrelated reasons (I promote my own series and it helps me in designing safe tracks) and you are right; "A Pro rider will turn very similar lap times regardless of the bike (correctly set up)." Now I can't say he can do that for 45+2 (or even today's 30+2) but for most of the moto, he will turn the same lap times. It is one of the reasons I prefer "Open" classes ('run what you brung').

In the 90's I moved off the open class bikes and into the 125 class because over the course of the race, I was faster on the 125 (fitness played a big part in it!). Holding onto a 500cc monster for 3+ hours was getting to me and the 125 made racing fun again. I was still whipped at the end but I was still pushing rather than wheezing.

The thing is, I'd bet Mitch (et al) could make a 250 2T make equal HP to the 450 4$ but would it be ridable? And if you did, would it not be a hand grenade just link the 4$? And would it not be just as expensive or filled with unobtanium preventing the privateer from competing anyway? And is that the direction the AMA and FIM want to take the sport?

The problem as I see it is that what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday. Of course the average rider, the 80% of all bikes sold, is not a professional racer and would be better off on a KDX200, but the buying public wants what Ricky/Bubba/Chad/and Ryan have. They spend millions on Rockstar/RedBull/Makita sticker kits to make their bikes look just like the pros. They buy exact replica riding gear. Count the number of Monster helmets you see at the next local MX. I am willing to be they are not getting one dime in return from Monster!  And since Jeff Fredette isn't kicking everyone's ass on the KDX, those are not selling like hot cakes. The manufacturers traded off having THEIR bikes costing $40k and selling to the public cheap knockoffs for $2500 to having EVERYONE pay $10k. Yet to be competitive, you still have to invest another $30k+.

At least with the works bikes, the rest of us could afford to have a good time.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: rbigair40 on August 11, 2011, 12:42:47 AM
I love 2 strokes at LL I was behind the womens class and there was a girl from cali #22 on a yz 125 that was the baddest sounding thing ther!! i think her sister won the class ? (same last name) buttt last year i tried on a ktm 360 that was fresh and a real nice bike !!!!!! fast handled good, it just was not good enough to do the job i invested a lot of money in that experiment and it didnt work out the way i hoped (dnq for LL ) this yr i borrowed a kawajunki 450 which i am not a fan of and made it to LL only rode 4 time befor that !! so if you remember stewart saying wait till i get my 450 he would beat RC and windham on the crf making ricky earn it!!! all yr long when RC rode a RM,i think that would be proof enough 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 11, 2011, 01:12:51 AM
Check out bigair40 last week (45) up there on the start with Kieth Johnson, Clark Stiles, Scott Sheak in +35....not bad for an old man who rode 5 times this year  :P

(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/scrubbin627/bigair40.jpg)

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 13, 2011, 09:41:42 AM
I love 2 strokes at LL I was behind the womens class and there was a girl from cali #22 on a yz 125 that was the baddest sounding thing ther!! i think her sister won the class ? (same last name) buttt last year i tried on a ktm 360 that was fresh and a real nice bike !!!!!! fast handled good, it just was not good enough to do the job i invested a lot of money in that experiment and it didnt work out the way i hoped (dnq for LL ) this yr i borrowed a kawajunki 450 which i am not a fan of and made it to LL only rode 4 time befor that !! so if you remember stewart saying wait till i get my 450 he would beat RC and windham on the crf making ricky earn it!!! all yr long when RC rode a RM,i think that would be proof enough 

I luv4strowkes. Wow.... "Bummer Dude" about riding that 2 stroke and then having it be so slow... Also, there's gears on them bikes too that you can click'em up a notch t'go faster, I bet the other guys in your race were shiftin gears and everything!

Maybe an 11/68 final drive ratio wasn't the right way to go on that bike...

I know a guy who wanted to ride up his driveway recently so he tried it on a fully customated KX620SR... fresh handled good, but not good enough to do the job.

He borrowed a message board poser's XR200, which he's not a fan of, and Wow!... Now they might as well just call'em Stiffy C. Creamyjeans!     

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 13, 2011, 12:54:48 PM
I love 2 strokes at LL I was behind the womens class and there was a girl from cali #22 on a yz 125 that was the baddest sounding thing ther!! i think her sister won the class ? (same last name) buttt last year i tried on a ktm 360 that was fresh and a real nice bike !!!!!! fast handled good, it just was not good enough to do the job i invested a lot of money in that experiment and it didnt work out the way i hoped (dnq for LL ) this yr i borrowed a kawajunki 450 which i am not a fan of and made it to LL only rode 4 time befor that !! so if you remember stewart saying wait till i get my 450 he would beat RC and windham on the crf making ricky earn it!!! all yr long when RC rode a RM,i think that would be proof enough 

Riding a 1990's 360 that was less than praised as a good bike to a pack of new bikes is kinda a bad example, no matter how good it handled etc. As I've stated, the new bikes are better by far, both 2 and 4 strokes. JMHO.  I'd like to see how a 2012 KTM 300XC would have done for you.  Anyways, what do you mean you qualified by only riding a KX450F 4 times?  I'm not getting that. So you never practiced on the KX and you just rode the qualifiers? Or did you qualify on another bike and then raced the KX450F?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 13, 2011, 12:57:47 PM
By the way, when stewart got on his 450F, what happened?  Still got his azz handed to him by Ricky.  The 450F didn't make a bit of difference, stewart was still running second.  There are some serious shills here. The key way to always know, is the first part always says, "I love 2 strokes." Just sayin. Change the MO.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 13, 2011, 05:45:18 PM
I luv4strowkes. Wow.... "Bummer Dude" about riding that 2 stroke and then having it be so slow... Also, there's gears on them bikes too that you can click'em up a notch t'go faster, I bet the other guys in your race were shiftin gears and everything!

Maybe an 11/68 final drive ratio wasn't the right way to go on that bike...

I know a guy who wanted to ride up his driveway recently so he tried it on a fully customated KX620SR... fresh handled good, but not good enough to do the job.

He borrowed a message board poser's XR200, which he's not a fan of, and Wow!... Now they might as well just call'em Stiffy C. Creamyjeans!     

Another very good post from TS250. How many times have you made it to Loretta's again?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 13, 2011, 05:52:38 PM
Anyways, what do you mean you qualified by only riding a KX450F 4 times?  I'm not getting that. So you never practiced on the KX and you just rode the qualifiers? Or did you qualify on another bike and then raced the KX450F?

It means he qualified from his regional on a piece o crap kx450 he had rode 4 times. He bought it blown up off craigslist a couple weeks before

There are some serious shills here. The key way to always know, is the first part always says, "I love 2 strokes." Just sayin. Change the MO.

I dont understand what your saying here?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 13, 2011, 06:22:43 PM
WOW!

...If you're going to use your 2 screen names to make up a story to try to make it sound like you couldn't qualify on a 2 stroke, then you "Made it in" on a Kawasucksy that you "Borrowed", you have to get your 2 screen names to work out their story before hand and stick to it.

I know 4 stroke guys can be a little dense, but your first screen name stated that he "Borrowed" a 450 that "He's not a fan of", then your main screen name stepped in to back up your second one with a photo and also stated that the Fart50 was "Bought off craigslist blown up" even though he was bitching about the money he had spent on his other bike. Most people who bitch about money and bikes in the same sentence won't be having anything to do with a used fartbike... Why not just buy a used wooden boat!!!

That's just stupid...
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 13, 2011, 07:21:41 PM
WOW!

...If you're going to use your 2 screen names to make up a story to try to make it sound like you couldn't qualify on a 2 stroke, then you "Made it in" on a Kawasucksy that you "Borrowed", you have to get your 2 screen names to work out their story before hand and stick to it.

I know 4 stroke guys can be a little dense, but your first screen name stated that he "Borrowed" a 450 that "He's not a fan of", then your main screen name stepped in to back up your second one with a photo and also stated that the Fart50 was "Bought off craigslist blown up" even though he was bitching about the money he had spent on his other bike. Most people who bitch about money and bikes in the same sentence won't be having anything to do with a used fartbike... Why not just buy a used wooden boat!!!

That's just stupid...


2 screen names? Are you serious? LMFAO... NO TS250 IM NOT YOU!!! Your the only immature member on here to take it to that level. Congrats.

Bigair is a close friend of mine. Would you like some proof?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 13, 2011, 07:38:01 PM
Actually now that I think about it, I think he did borrow someones kx450 that year. It may have not been the one he fixed off CL. Its been 2 years hell I cant remember.

He works on motorcycle's and 4 wheelers at home so buying a blown up 4 stroke on a good deal isnt a bad investment. I DO know the motor was later sold and the chassis now has a kx500 motor on it....which keeps breaking (the frame).
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 13, 2011, 09:20:29 PM
By the way, when stewart got on his 450F, what happened?  Still got his azz handed to him by Ricky.  The 450F didn't make a bit of difference, stewart was still running second.  There are some serious shills here. The key way to always know, is the first part always says, "I love 2 strokes." Just sayin. Change the MO.

I like that term "Shill". That's a bullseye.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: rbigair40 on August 14, 2011, 12:24:24 AM
ive raced LL 14 times one B class and the rest A class on a dr4,rm2,rm2,ktm2,ktm2,ktm2,yam2,yam4,yam4,ktm4,ktm4,ktm,ktm4,ktm4   2 or 4 =stroke (for you slow people) :P soooo i know how to switch gears ,iam not stuck in the past,the 360 was my all time favorite bike which is why i tryed on it last yr.  i have never had a thumper take a DUMP on me! but have had two strokes do it. cranks and piston locating pins !! I ONLY RACED 4 times and practiced 3 time before LL and 2 of them wher quailifiers ,and borrowed a bike after i was at the regional(kx450f) never rode it before ,won the +40 and got 7th in the +35 at RED BUD look it up!!! i found this site when i had my 360 thought it was cool but starting to think some of you are  actually some ones wifes   :-*
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 14, 2011, 02:14:54 AM
ive raced LL 14 times one B class and the rest A class on a dr4,rm2,rm2,ktm2,ktm2,ktm2,yam2,yam4,yam4,ktm4,ktm4,ktm,ktm4,ktm4   2 or 4 =stroke (for you slow people) :P soooo i know how to switch gears ,iam not stuck in the past,the 360 was my all time favorite bike which is why i tryed on it last yr.  i have never had a thumper take a DUMP on me! but have had two strokes do it. cranks and piston locating pins !! I ONLY RACED 4 times and practiced 3 time before LL and 2 of them wher quailifiers ,and borrowed a bike after i was at the regional(kx450f) never rode it before ,won the +40 and got 7th in the +35 at RED BUD look it up!!! i found this site when i had my 360 thought it was cool but starting to think some of you are  actually some ones wifes   :-*

Right there is exactly why you got slammed, so please don't say it is us.  You were directly comparing the fact that you couldn't qualify on a 1990's 360 compared to a newer 450F. We called you on it, and now you are not understanding the cold shoulder. If you would have rode a 2011 KTM 300XC, and then said, hey I was down on power or something, we would have said, hey that's cool.  But to say anything 1990's compares to todays bikes is just, well you see the flow of the slams.  You also have changed your tune about how many times you rode which bike.  Why did you have to borrow a bike?  What was your normal bike that you rode?  Things like that, instead of saying, I didn't qualify because I rode a 2 stroke...
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: rbigair40 on August 14, 2011, 03:23:44 PM
Borrowed bike because i didnt have a 450, the one i bought broke a rod so i parted it out(kaw) ,had a 250f didnt feel like it was fast enough since the 360 was faster ! and didnt have good luck on it,also people would slam me about that bike every time i raced it last yr untill i let them ride it and then they would say its still ugly . lol... and for people to say that thumpers are junk is nuts !!!!never practiced on the KXf450 and  just rode the regional qualifier the area Q i raced my 250f
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 14, 2011, 06:41:17 PM
Right there is exactly why you got slammed, so please don't say it is us. 

Right were? What are you talking about?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 14, 2011, 11:41:30 PM
It seems crazy to me that guy's that obviously race at a respectable level's opinions are being rubbished.
These guys ride and race 2 and 4 stroke bikes so i think there opinion carrys some weight.
Now once again i'll state that i'll only ever own a 2T, but because i've raced against and ridden new gen 4bangers i know how good they really are.
Here in NZ it is 250 vs 250 and open is open, and yet the 4strokes mostly win, at pro or clubman level.
Now you can quote all the HP and torque figures you like but the fact remains the POWER DELIVERY of the 4banger is far easier to control therefore you can go faster for longer ie win races easier.
Now i'm not taking into account all the other things that make the 2T superior ie fun factor and lower cost.
And of course i acknowledge the AMA rules aren't fair and the playing field isn't level, fair or not though the current rules make they 4 stroke the better choice for racing. only in my opinion of course.
Once again though here in NZ where you can run what you brung the 250 2t's still dont dominate with pro or clubmen riders. thats because the new gen 250fs are very fast, also very boring to ride but when you gotta win you don't care about how fun a bike is.
Just my 2 cents, i'll probably cop it from the one eyed troll lurking round here now.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: xX JonthE Xx on August 15, 2011, 01:38:16 AM
(http://forum.ntreev.net/grandchase/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files/16/3678.u_2D00_mad.jpg)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TMKIWI on August 15, 2011, 03:36:35 AM
Just my 2 cents, i'll probably cop it from the one eyed troll lurking round here now.

 ;D :-X

I wonder if anyone on here is known as ian9toes as well. ???
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 15, 2011, 01:06:48 PM
Borrowed bike because i didnt have a 450, the one i bought broke a rod so i parted it out(kaw) ,had a 250f didnt feel like it was fast enough since the 360 was faster ! and didnt have good luck on it,also people would slam me about that bike every time i raced it last yr untill i let them ride it and then they would say its still ugly . lol... and for people to say that thumpers are junk is nuts !!!!never practiced on the KXf450 and  just rode the regional qualifier the area Q i raced my 250f
The one you parted out, broke a rod on you? How did it go?  What happened? The 450F you owned (practiced and usetoo) before qualifying, was the same bike (kawi 450F) as you borrowed? The 360 was faster than the 250F and you raced the 250F? I don't get it. I get the ugly part, I also get the old part.  So do you agree, things may have been different had it been on a newer KTM, in both looks and how good they are?  My points, are directly related to the fact that it wasn't the 2 stroke per say, but the part that you felt dumb because everyone made fun of you, like an ugly kid in school, and the fact that it was an old and outdated bike.  I'm just trying to get to the facts, not cloud it with judgement.  That bike 360 was the dated version 380 in 1998, inwhich lost a shootout to a YZ400F. I'm pretty sure no one would compare a 1998 YZ400F to a 2006+ KX450F. Right?  I think some of you guys are confused (ie: TotalNZ).  But I raced pro, and have rode both 2 and 4.  So saying I don't have facts are out of line.  I'm getting down to facts on this post as we speak.  It seems opinions may have been alittle clouded on some facts on this subject. JMHO.

By the way, the 4 strokes came into play back in what 98?  They didn't dominate anywhere until maybe 2004'ish?  It will take some time at cc vs cc.  Just sayin
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 15, 2011, 04:16:11 PM
TotalNZ +1
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: citabjockey on August 15, 2011, 05:12:33 PM
TotalNZ +2

TotalNZ +1
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 15, 2011, 05:23:57 PM
TotalNZ +2

TotalNZ +1
Just curious how you guys feel TotalNZ plus anything, when I've shown that the guys he is referring too were comparing a 1997 or earlier KTM 360 to a 2006+ KX450F? And that fact that I raced at a higher level and have rode both.  Please enlighten me.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 15, 2011, 05:47:25 PM
Well, its obvious that a bike with more horsepower that hits every other stroke is going to be easier to ride fast. Duh, do we need a brain surgeon to figure this out? The problem is that people who ride and race 4-strokes have been punked out by the OEMs and have bought into the idea of how wonderful they are. Meanwhile, the price of these machines continues to skyrocket and so does their racing cost.

The whole idea of racing a 2-stroke is that it is a purer form of racing machinery. It has fewer moving parts, is lighter, and has more power liter for liter than a 4-stroke. But, the OEMs don't see a monetary value in these so they have propagandized the American dirt biker into buying their more expensive product and all the profits it will gain them.

Sure 2-strokes require maintenance too, every dirt bike does, especially racing one. But who are we kidding - are you guys trying to say that doing a top end on a 4-stroke is easier, less cost effective, and cheaper than a 2-stroke? Give me a break.

Why do we have to keep going over this BS? Miedoso is right, how can you compare a ragged out 90s 2-stroke to a high performance 450F. These are night and day. Plus the early KTMs were horrible in every part other than the engine.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 15, 2011, 06:43:32 PM
And that fact that I raced at a higher level and have rode both. 

I think your stretching it a little bit there.  :-X  How many classes did you race at Lorettas this year? Ive been following motocross religiously for 15 years and have never heard of Meidosoracing.

Bigair40 still rides at that level @ 45 years old so why attack him like he doesnt know what he's talking about?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 15, 2011, 06:53:27 PM
And that fact that I raced at a higher level and have rode both.

I think your stretching it a little bit there.  :-X  How many classes did you race at Lorettas this year? Ive been following motocross religiously for 15 years and have never heard of Meidosoracing.

Bigair40 still rides at that level @ 45 years old so why attack him like he doesnt know what he's talking about?
Like I've stated, I'm only talking about facts.  I have never raced LL, ONLY because I never had money and did racing all on my own. My parents didn't help me for sheet.  I am not going after him at all. I'm just trying to point some things out, using facts. And you don't like it.  My Fact about racing at a higher level, again is a fact of holding a ProAMA license.  I never said I was faster than him, I'm quite sure he will smoke me now since I only get to ride maybe 3-4 times per year. I just said I raced at a higher level. Quite the contrary, kudos for him answering my questions.  
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 15, 2011, 08:50:45 PM
Borrowed bike because i didnt have a 450, the one i bought broke a rod so i parted it out(kaw) ,had a 250f didnt feel like it was fast enough since the 360 was faster ! and didnt have good luck on it,also people would slam me about that bike every time i raced it last yr untill i let them ride it and then they would say its still ugly . lol... and for people to say that thumpers are junk is nuts !!!!never practiced on the KXf450 and  just rode the regional qualifier the area Q i raced my 250f

I'm just trying to clarify what you're saying. Are you saying that you think 4-strokes are what is needed in today's racing since they have helped you race at a higher level? And are you saying that regardless of their hugely negative impact on today's economy (especially the local parents of teens racing 250Fs), that they are a better racing alternative to the 2-stroke?

Have you read any of the comments on the Rule change petition. These comments tell the story of what 4-strokes is doing to the local racing scene.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Dirtsaw on August 15, 2011, 11:52:02 PM
Hey, my father in law just had to rebuild his "run forever" XR400.  Just the top end.  New pistion, ring, cam, cam chain, and oil pump.  He did all the work since it is a lawnmower engine and not some hi hp grenade.  But his bill for just the parts was a brap above $1500.  You can buy an entire 250 motor for that...  Only diff with an XR is that it doesn't have the potential to blow up every time it starts.  I'm just sayin.... 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 16, 2011, 01:12:43 AM
Hey, my father in law just had to rebuild his "run forever" XR400.  Just the top end.  New pistion, ring, cam, cam chain, and oil pump.  He did all the work since it is a lawnmower engine and not some hi hp grenade.  But his bill for just the parts was a brap above $1500.  You can buy an entire 250 motor for that...  Only diff with an XR is that it doesn't have the potential to blow up every time it starts.  I'm just sayin.... 

Im not sure were your ordering parts from but if your father payed $1500 American dollars to rebuild the top end on his xr400 he got ripped off. Just sayin...
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: rbigair40 on August 16, 2011, 02:19:38 AM
360   was   faster   then   250f   but   had   sold   the   360 (trying to type slow so you will understand!!) bought   a   blown   450   (bad   head) replaced   head   then   rod   broke  ,only   rode   250f    3times   befor   ridin  450 (borrowed)
at  redbud. How many   mains have you made???  i raced pro also just didnt list it i had a license
for 3 yrs only tryed to Q around here made 1 main Troy Ohio ,so  like i said some where else on this site if two people that are the same speed the guy on the thumper will win  ;D  even Dubach says it in the new ama book
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Dirtsaw on August 16, 2011, 02:52:51 AM
Xr's Only and Honda OEM parts.  Go ahead and Google rebuild xr400 motor and see what you find.  By the time all is said and done $1500 isn't so unreasonable...  But what do I know?  I just watched him buy the parts and rebuild it..
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 16, 2011, 03:30:26 AM
 -Honda Parts direct.com-

oil pump -PUMP ASSY., OIL  15100-KCY-670-- $102.60
new cam - CAMSHAFT ASSY. 14000-KCY-670--$169.02
cam chain - CHAIN, CAM (112L) 14401-KCY-671--$83.39
tensioner - TENSIONER, CAM CHAIN 14511-KCY-670--$54.65
piston -PISTON (STD) 13101-KCY-670--$57.46
rings - RING SET (STD) 13011-KCY-670--$35.04

Retail is $502.16 before shipping to rebuild the top end on a xr400.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 03:34:54 AM
360   was   faster   then   250f   but   had   sold   the   360 (trying to type slow so you will understand!!) bought   a   blown   450   (bad   head) replaced   head   then   rod   broke  ,only   rode   250f    3times   befor   ridin  450 (borrowed)
at  redbud. How many   mains have you made???  i raced pro also just didnt list it i had a license
for 3 yrs only tryed to Q around here made 1 main Troy Ohio ,so  like i said some where else on this site if two people that are the same speed the guy on the thumper will win  ;D  even Dubach says it in the new ama book
maybe instead of worrying if i am understanding, you should proof read so we dont see discreps. What happened to "i've never had a 4 stroke take a dump" or something like that. Im on my phone so cant go back and quote exactly. Isnt a broken rod a dump? So sounds like when the rod broke the 4 stroke was worth more in parts than rebuilding it due too cost?  just sayin...
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 03:37:55 AM
ive raced LL 14 times one B class and the rest A class on a dr4,rm2,rm2,ktm2,ktm2,ktm2,yam2,yam4,yam4,ktm4,ktm4,ktm,ktm4,ktm4   2 or 4 =stroke (for you slow people) :P soooo i know how to switch gears ,iam not stuck in the past,the 360 was my all time favorite bike which is why i tryed on it last yr.  i have never had a thumper take a DUMP on me! but have had two strokes do it. cranks and piston locating pins !! I ONLY RACED 4 times and practiced 3 time before LL and 2 of them wher quailifiers ,and borrowed a bike after i was at the regional(kx450f) never rode it before ,won the +40 and got 7th in the +35 at RED BUD look it up!!! i found this site when i had my 360 thought it was cool but starting to think some of you are  actually some ones wifes   :-*
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 16, 2011, 03:39:32 AM
He loaned it to a local kid who blew it up on the track. The bike was a huge POS when he bought it. He pretty much threw a head on it and rocked it.

When it blew the second time he parted what was left of the engine and sold the chassis to another guy who put a kx500 motor on it. Now the kx500 motor keeps breaking the frame.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 03:48:27 AM
Man, opinions are rife here. Sorry, but the kx500 motor is not breaking the frame. The builder, is the only one who would be at fault. I do not see service honda bikes breaking frames.  Just home builders. None of my frames have broke on my cr500af's. Does it really matter who was riding when the motor broke a rod?  It is the exact reason we speak about the 4 chokes here.  The value after blown is less than the rebuild it would take to make it run again. He was the owner of it at the time it took the dump, inwhich he's never had happen.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 16, 2011, 04:02:43 AM
Does it really matter who was riding when the motor broke a rod? He was the owner of it at the time it took the dump, inwhich he's never had happen 

Yes, in the post your referring to he was talking about racing one. Go back and read it again.

As for the frame I dont know who built it, I agree it probably wouldnt be the engine. I just hear the frame keeps breaking...

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 04:08:50 AM
Does it really matter who was riding when the motor broke a rod? He was the owner of it at the time it took the dump, inwhich he's never had happen 

Yes, in the post your referring to he was talking about racing one. Go back and read it again.
  really?  Thats what your gonna go with?  So if i've blown 90 2 stroke motors for example, but it didnt happen while racing, i dont include that when i state, ive never had a 2 stroke motor take a dump on me? Im out. This is becoming funny. Sad, but funny.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 16, 2011, 04:18:37 AM
Your digging deep man. Your like arguing with my old lady  :P

YES, Miedosoracing someone can say they have never blown up a 4 stroke.....even if a friend blew up their bike. Ive never blown up a 4 stroke either....so if I lend my bike to Ryan to ride at Southwick next weekend and he blows it up. In the morning I still have never blown a 4 stroke. Correct? Are we really arguing about this?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: SachsGS on August 16, 2011, 05:37:59 AM
I'd like to slip something in here edge wise....

ATV sales exceed offroad motorcycle sales here in North America and 99% of ATVs are 4T.It would therefore make economic sense to make offroad motorcycles 4T as well (read big four).The Euros don't make ATVs (okay a few dribble out of KTM) and seem to be doing fine producing a wide range of 2Ts.The big four call the shots and have seen fit to eliminate 2Ts in pro motocross - the only part of the industry they still control.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: factoryX on August 16, 2011, 05:44:29 AM
The only reason that is true is because there no 2 stroke atv's left to buy, except maybe kiddie quads. Canada and Mexico still sell new banshees, but thats it. The first new modern two stroke sport atv to pop back up will sell out immediately.  Hell, the can am ds450 was supposed to be a 300cc power valved two stroke. Whats hilarious is that Banshee's, trx250rs, and lt250r's are still very popular, never mind how old they are.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 16, 2011, 06:15:50 AM
I was never taking a shot at you miedosoracing, i respect your opinion and i hear what you're saying.
The point i guess i was trying to make is that if you're racing to win, under the current rules and regime
you'd be faster on a fourbanger. Yes that sucks and no thats not fair.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 16, 2011, 10:25:25 AM
Hey guys this isn't a bar. Try to keep the negative comments to a minimum. This is a conversation not a fight.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 01:36:35 PM
I was never taking a shot at you miedosoracing, i respect your opinion and i hear what you're saying.
The point i guess i was trying to make is that if you're racing to win, under the current rules and regime
you'd be faster on a fourbanger. Yes that sucks and no thats not fair.


That's cool, But this guy is in open or age classes, so it doesn't matter what cc's he runs. Many of us here now, have cc vs cc rules.  My whole problem with him bringing up the 2 vs 4 stroke in his argument, was that he was trying to say he didn't qualify because he was on a 2 stroke, but with facts, have shown it was because he was on an old bike and was trying to compare it to an atleast 10 year newer KX450F, which wasn't fair. I was also showing that 4 strokes when they let go, cost too much to repair, which he proved as well. I was only trying to show facts. I'm out again.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 16, 2011, 01:58:23 PM
Quote
The only reason that is true is because there no 2 stroke atv's left to buy

I think Yamaha still produces the Blaster and/or Banshee though you may not get it in your area.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: chump6784 on August 16, 2011, 02:41:37 PM
out of interest, does anyone know how much RC's PC 125 motor would have been worth. Everyone keeps saying 20k 250f motors but i was just wondering how that would compare with a factory 2 stroke.

From my past experience the small bore classes have always been where the major money was spent on bikes. i remember kx 60's with kx 80 forks, extended swingarms or a full kx 80 chassis plus the mechanic would go to town on the motor. The 80's and 125's were the same, you could never get enough power out of them and a lot of money was spent getting them to perform. My brothers kx 80 was worked that hard it had to be rebuilt after 3 race days, that is about 3 hours of riding. if it wasnt rebuilt it would blow up. when it was running it would keep with a standard 125 tho.

jump to the 250 class and all anyone really seemed to do was a pipe and muffler, some porting and maybe reeds and that was enough. it was obvious in the smaller classes when someone had spent real money on an engine because that bike would haul ass but i never really noticed it that much in the 250 class, it was more just the better riders
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 03:58:03 PM
The 2 stroke motors were even cheaper for PC themselves.  Mitch has to outsource much of the parts he uses on the 4 strokes.  Thus the price.  He said that he has to have a crap load of anything made, then if it is wrong, or doesn't work like he hoped, they just got trashed and had to order new stuff.  The cool thing about 2 strokes, that most engine builders could port them.  I know Jackson Performance was well known in the Iowa- Illin area, and people up there didn't like PC port jobs, because off the assembly line at PC, they just did a couple grinds here and there, but didn't do full on porting unless your name was RC.  Things like that, plus a full port job was like $900 or something like that, and that was even from PC.  No one can do the motors like PC on 4 strokes, because they don't have the access to all the specialty makings, unless they want to throw out a whole lot of dough in hopes they don't get the first batch wrong.  
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 05:43:42 PM
http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Meet-Mitch-Payton,989/GuyB,64 (http://www.vitalmx.com/videos/features/Meet-Mitch-Payton,989/GuyB,64)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 16, 2011, 05:53:01 PM
Both 2T and 4$ full on race motors were (are) over the top expensive and none of them are built to last. They are built to be used up at the end of the life cycle. RC's 2T (and 4$) motor was filled with little bits of love that Joe MXer could not buy with all the money in Micro$oft.

The problem is when it comes to Joe MXer racing local B class, he can do it on a stock (or semi stock) 2T for a couple of years with out spending more than $300 or so. Not so if he rides a 250F.

Good insight, miedodoracing.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 16, 2011, 06:25:13 PM
Ive read somewere Mitch said he could build three 125's for the price of one 250f.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 06:56:11 PM
" I don't know that I like the 250 four-strokes in the 125 class. It is too much of an advantage. They are double the size of our KX125's. Double! The legal four-strokes in the 250 class aren't double. The legal four strokes in the 80 class aren't double. You need to find a happy medium, and 250 ain't it. They are going to keep getting better, too. Right now, the 125's can run with them with momentum and speed in the corners, but what happens when you get behind them is that they slow down in the corners because they don't corner as well. They squirt the first ten or twenty feet, and then you have to try and run them down. That's hard. They get great starts too because of their traction. They have a big advantage here. You get little kids getting off an 80cc bike and they'll have to go to a 250. It is too big for tham, too heavy and they can't start the things. All the manufacturers are working on them, and unfortunately we'll all be racing them in a few years."


Quoted in MXA, Sept. 2001.

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: yo_marc on August 16, 2011, 07:36:11 PM
I love that MXA quote.. I just wish it never came true..
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: yo_marc on August 16, 2011, 07:55:03 PM
Not to derail things, but I hear it said that 4-strokes have better traction than two-strokes.  I've heard it said it's because of the power-every-other-revolution thing; it allows the rear tire time to bite.

I cant help but wonder; what does that mean for the electric bikes in the not very distant future?  As most know, electric motors have instant-on, instant-linear-torque, now - from 0-RPM.  No power pulses.  Will they be a handful because of their very smooth power delivery?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 16, 2011, 09:23:32 PM
Not to derail things, but I hear it said that 4-strokes have better traction than two-strokes.  I've heard it said it's because of the power-every-other-revolution thing; it allows the rear tire time to bite.

I cant help but wonder; what does that mean for the electric bikes in the not very distant future?  As most know, electric motors have instant-on, instant-linear-torque, now - from 0-RPM.  No power pulses.  Will they be a handful because of their very smooth power delivery?
I totally disagree with people, when they say that. It is the way we set the bikes up, inwhich they don't get traction.  I have modded 2 strokes at the same cc's as 4 strokes, and they ran exactly like the 4 stroke.  No wheel spin, and no powerband.  Unfortunately, in MX, everyone has this thing in their head saying max power. The 250 2 stroke has more torque and hp all the way up the range. Take that down to equal a 250F, by stiffling it, and it will run exactly like the 250F.  Then the guys who love the 250F will hate the 250 2 stroke.  They will say it's slow and it doesn't run right.  Even though it is identical to that of the 4 stroke.  It's so idiotical. I've sent this setup info to MXA, but most likely will never hear about it again in the mag. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: Suzuki TS250/185 on August 16, 2011, 09:47:03 PM
Not to derail things, but I hear it said that 4-strokes have better traction than two-strokes.  I've heard it said it's because of the power-every-other-revolution thing; it allows the rear tire time to bite.

I cant help but wonder; what does that mean for the electric bikes in the not very distant future?  As most know, electric motors have instant-on, instant-linear-torque, now - from 0-RPM.  No power pulses.  Will they be a handful because of their very smooth power delivery?

They will charge full speed ahead into complete and total lameness....
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: yo_marc on August 16, 2011, 10:08:11 PM
That's some good info Miedoso.   On the flip side of the coin, do you think any of the latest and greatest chassis or suspension tech that has hit the dealer floor in the last few years helped feed that thought (that thumpers hookup better), or has that tech kind of been plateauing? 

I'm honestly curious, not trolling.  I've been out of the latest bike tech for nearly 10 years.  Since thumpers hit the scene, really.

- and TS, I totally agree  ;D  I'd ride a thumper before an e-bike.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 17, 2011, 12:08:34 AM
That's some good info Miedoso.   On the flip side of the coin, do you think any of the latest and greatest chassis or suspension tech that has hit the dealer floor in the last few years helped feed that thought (that thumpers hookup better), or has that tech kind of been plateauing?  

I'm honestly curious, not trolling.  I've been out of the latest bike tech for nearly 10 years.  Since thumpers hit the scene, really.

- and TS, I totally agree  ;D  I'd ride a thumper before an e-bike.
My 2009 TM300MX has the latest alloy frame with great geometry and 50mm forks and ohlins shock. I can turn it inside thumpers at will but it still doesn't hook up as good cause of the power delivery.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 17, 2011, 12:19:30 AM
That's some good info Miedoso.   On the flip side of the coin, do you think any of the latest and greatest chassis or suspension tech that has hit the dealer floor in the last few years helped feed that thought (that thumpers hookup better), or has that tech kind of been plateauing? 

I'm honestly curious, not trolling.  I've been out of the latest bike tech for nearly 10 years.  Since thumpers hit the scene, really.

- and TS, I totally agree  ;D  I'd ride a thumper before an e-bike.

Some things to think about. The 4 strokes have tracks specifically made for them.  If you would take a 1996 SX track and have 250 2 strokes and 450Farts on the same track, the 450F would have problems.  There are very few 180 turns anymore, mostly 90 degree.  I've noticed a big difference on local mx tracks as well. The ruts build outside, and very few inside lines.  As you see in the amateurs, the number of 2 strokes increase per race, you will see more passing going on.  The 2 strokes will cut inside of the 4 strokes, but the 4 strokes will gain in other places on the tracks. Like I've said, wait some years, and things will look different. 4 strokes took from 1998ish to almost 2005ish to be in charge. That's a lot of years.  I'd ride a electric bike tomorrow.  Back yard tracks. Electric will be a substitute bike, not a conversion like the 4 strokes that were forced on us.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: JohnN on August 17, 2011, 01:22:43 AM
Hmmm... 11 pages so far about something that was created with the stroke of a pen.

The real issue is that through marketing the average joe believes that it's fair for a four-stroke to be larger than a two-stroke. While at the same time claiming they are better. Not sure how that adds up, but it's what's causing the rift even between fellow two-strokers.

Here's something that will cause a bit of trouble. I love four-strokes!

There is a place for them. While at the races I watched some of the older vet guys and their four-strokes will probably last for 10 years or more.

The problem is that the rule change created years ago has confused old timers and bamboozled younger racers who grew up after the four stroke "revolution" began.

Yes the speeds of the races is higher. This is due to the "straightening" of the tracks. There are very few "difficult" sections or tight corners, everything is sweeping and banked. Sort of like NASCAR.

In a conversation with Rich Winkler (the guy that builds the AMA Supercross tracks) the indoor tracks have been modified in a huge way to accommodate the four-strokes.

Keep in mind one important factor when discussing the difference between the two-strokes and four-strokes, there is no fair comparison. Why? It's all a marketing driven.

All pro racing is designed to sell bikes. Plain and simple. Currently the bikes the manufacturers are trying to sell are four-strokes. The good news for us two-stroke fans, is that it's backfiring like a rusty old Model T. The warehouses are full of four-strokes the manufacturers can't give away.

The future will be different.... get out your crystal ball to see what it's going to look like!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 17, 2011, 03:01:39 AM
My 2009 TM300MX has the latest alloy frame with great geometry and 50mm forks and ohlins shock. I can turn it inside thumpers at will but it still doesn't hook up as good cause of the power delivery.

2 strokes just dont have the traction like the 4. Traction will always be the 2 strokes achillies heel.

I totally disagree with people, when they say that. It is the way we set the bikes up, inwhich they don't get traction.  I have modded 2 strokes at the same cc's as 4 strokes, and they ran exactly like the 4 stroke.  No wheel spin, and no powerband.  Unfortunately, in MX, everyone has this thing in their head saying max power.

Im not even touching that one lol. And in MX the thing in everyones head is traction
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 17, 2011, 03:54:17 AM
My 2009 TM300MX has the latest alloy frame with great geometry and 50mm forks and ohlins shock. I can turn it inside thumpers at will but it still doesn't hook up as good cause of the power delivery.

2 strokes just dont have the traction like the 4. Traction will always be the 2 strokes achillies heel.

I totally disagree with people, when they say that. It is the way we set the bikes up, inwhich they don't get traction.  I have modded 2 strokes at the same cc's as 4 strokes, and they ran exactly like the 4 stroke.  No wheel spin, and no powerband.  Unfortunately, in MX, everyone has this thing in their head saying max power.

Im not even touching that one lol. And in MX the thing in everyones head is traction
Yep this is my point, and why i think 9 times out of ten a new gen 4stroke is faster round a MX track.
Although in saying that an AF 500 would hook up sick, just a shame there aren't many round.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 17, 2011, 04:17:00 AM

Im not even touching that one lol. And in MX the thing in everyones head is traction
You don't have a clue. That's exactly what the people sending their motors to me and to Pro Circuit say, don't worry about peak power, just make me more traction.  I don't see too many runnning heavy fly wheel weights on their mx bikes, now do you?  If it was all about traction, then they would all have a flywheel weight on their 250 2 stroke.  Everyone wants more power, from bottom to top. That's what they want. Not one has said, I want more traction. LMFAO

TotalNZ, do you run the smoothest power switch always, and flywheel weight on your 300?  If not, why? I can detune it to run like a 300cc 4 stroke if you want. If not, tell us why you wouldn't want it to run like a 4 stroke 300cc. Thanks in advance for your insight.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 17, 2011, 04:40:45 AM

Im not even touching that one lol. And in MX the thing in everyones head is traction
You don't have a clue. That's exactly what the people sending their motors to me and to Pro Circuit say, don't worry about peak power, just make me more traction.  I don't see too many runnning heavy fly wheel weights on their mx bikes, now do you?  If it was all about traction, then they would all have a flywheel weight on their 250 2 stroke.  Everyone wants more power, from bottom to top. That's what they want. Not one has said, I want more traction. LMFAO

TotalNZ, do you run the smoothest power switch always, and flywheel weight on your 300?  If not, why? I can detune it to run like a 300cc 4 stroke if you want. If not, tell us why you wouldn't want it to run like a 4 stroke 300cc. Thanks in advance for your insight.
Na i'd hate it to run like a 4banger, the things that i love about my 2T are exactly the things that make it harder to turn consistent fast laps, ie snappy brutal power delivery = fun but doesn't = fast lap times.
I love the challenge and excitement of riding a 2t. I love throwing roost and doing wheelys, hooking up and launching smoothly from corner to corner with an ultra flat powercurve doesn't interest me. Although thats the way to fast laps and winning races, it's BORING.
I also love the light weight and no engine braking.
I'll still maintain though that with the standard of new gen 4's what it is they're the fastest way round the MX track for most people.
I gave a young 250f rider a blast on my CR awhile back and his reaction was, i love the power that things fast as but there's no way i could ride it as hard all day as i can my250F.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 17, 2011, 05:13:15 AM
You don't have a clue. That's exactly what the people sending their motors to me and to Pro Circuit say, don't worry about peak power, just make me more traction.  I don't see too many runnning heavy fly wheel weights on their mx bikes, now do you?  If it was all about traction, then they would all have a flywheel weight on their 250 2 stroke.  Everyone wants more power, from bottom to top. That's what they want. Not one has said, I want more traction. LMFAO

Seriously man, do you have a medical marijuana card? Im saying it here and now...I wont respond to another post from you.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: yo_marc on August 17, 2011, 06:57:30 AM
FWIW, I'm running 12 oz's and have my powervalve spring set about 10% tighter than stock.  But I'm a woods guy  ;D
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: yo_marc on August 17, 2011, 07:08:51 AM
I would think what most people want for MX, is a motor that hits hard, but a chassis and suspension that make it hook up.  I dont think the average person would think of asking for a motor to be smooth, for fear of giving up HP to the next guy...

In the woods the point of having a smooth powerband is more apparent; the focus is smoothness and suspension.  A stock 250cc mx bike is already too much power for most situations.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 17, 2011, 07:35:40 AM
Tracks: In addition to rounding the corners  - although much of the newest suspension redesigns have been focused on getting them to turn sharper, they have moved the jumps to favor the 4$. Try to find video or track layouts pre-4$ era. You'll note that there is usually a jump right after a corner and before the corner is a little run in after the last jump (braking zone). Now look at a modern track and you'll note the jumps are reversed. The jump is right before the corner and a run up after the corner. This hurts the 2T because he has to short the jump into the turn to get time to stop while exiting the turn he will accelerate and shift and be going too fast to properly time the jump.

Electric: I would ride one in a heartbeat. Imagine roosting the hippies in your local park, or going for a ride on the neighborhood bike and horse trails. Now that the price is coming down, it could be a reality! We're talking the equivalent of a 168 lb 125! How could it not be a blast! Anyone up for a midnight run around the golf course?

Traction: The easy answer to getting 4$ traction is the flywheel weight. You can make it seem like an electric bike with enough flywheel. The problem is, no one wants that, they want as much hit as they can possibly handle - at least more than the guy next to or behind them.

Miedosoracing: He's correct. He's (often) not very nice about it, but he's right.

John: Long time, no see!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 17, 2011, 07:51:19 AM
Na i'd hate it to run like a 4banger, the things that i love about my 2T are exactly the things that make it harder to turn consistent fast laps, ie snappy brutal power delivery = fun but doesn't = fast lap times.
I love the challenge and excitement of riding a 2t. I love throwing roost and doing wheelys, hooking up and launching smoothly from corner to corner with an ultra flat powercurve doesn't interest me. Although thats the way to fast laps and winning races, it's BORING.
I also love the light weight and no engine braking.
I'll still maintain though that with the standard of new gen 4's what it is they're the fastest way round the MX track for most people.
I gave a young 250f rider a blast on my CR awhile back and his reaction was, i love the power that things fast as but there's no way i could ride it as hard all day as i can my250F.
\
Thanks man.

Vintage, you hurt my feelings.   :-*  Not really, I'm harsh.  LOL.  But I would rather get to the point. It's taken pages to get the truth out of some, and the truth gets shaded throughout those pages.  One thing you will never see me do, is start with name calling or going personal, like most others.  I just tell it like it is.  I try to use facts to prove something. Go through some profiles and look at what I speak of. Like saying I'm on a medical M card.  Idiot was a post by someone recently.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 17, 2011, 08:18:09 AM
By the way TotalNZ, the CR500AF doesn't hook up, it digs trenches. LOL.  My friend who loves 450F's, came back and said, it doesn't feel too fast, after doing a holeshot. I said, go back and look at the trench you just dug.  I got pretty good on that thing.  I could corner really well, just getting in a rut and gasing it. 0 clutching.  I miss it, but really want a 2011 or 12 KTM 300XC.  I even have a head all done, ready for it, from MikeS on KTMtalk.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: rbigair40 on August 17, 2011, 11:49:51 AM
I know now that i dont know anything??? but will a 4s jump a bigger jump closer then a 2s ?? just say you rolled around the track and when you reached the jump face you gassed it which would jump the biggest jump?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 17, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
I know now that i dont know anything??? but will a 4s jump a bigger jump closer then a 2s ?? just say you rolled around the track and when you reached the jump face you gassed it which would jump the biggest jump?

If were talking one of Meidoso's 2 stroke racing motors with a flywheel weight there is no comparision man. Are you crazy?

Flywheel weight = 4 stroke traction. Im glad Im on here to pick up these little tid bits.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 17, 2011, 02:00:17 PM
Some of you are giving the 4t too much credit. When looking at lap times done by 250v250 comparisons I don't believe the 250f will run faster laps '9 times out of 10'. Most riders you see will have a faster lap on a 250, although the 250 will also run the slowest lap. The 250f is more consistent, and easier to ride. Not faster.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 17, 2011, 02:11:53 PM
It fully amazes me that some people come on here and start praising 4-strokes (to any degree). Most of us have ridden a 4-stroke. Do you really think that you're going to convince us that 4-strokes are really that great? Sure a 450F is faster than a 250 and a 250F is faster than a 125. Don't you think we know this? Who cares if all the sudden you jumped on a 4-stroke and had your eyes opened to how much faster you were on a 4-stroke? Who are you preaching to? We know the OEM's wave of the future is high dollar, high tech 4-strokes. Do you think most of us on here don't see what's going on? Or that somehow we're off in a cave somewhere and need to be enlightened by a born again 4-stroke fanatic? Why do people like this even come on here and post?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 17, 2011, 02:13:39 PM
Some of you are giving the 4t too much credit. When looking at lap times done by 250v250 comparisons I don't believe the 250f will run faster laps '9 times out of 10'. Most riders you see will have a faster lap on a 250, although the 250 will also run the slowest lap. The 250f is more consistent, and easier to ride. Not faster.
Yes i agree, but winning races means being able to string consecutive fast laps together.
I totally agree that i could turn a couple super fast laps on my 2t but it's hard to do that for a whole race ie the challenge i spoke of earlier.
4bangers are easier to ride, so you can ride at a faster pace for longer.
like i said this is boring to me but i can't deny it's the way to win races.
Also i do have a flywheel weight on the CR, it helped my starts heaps.
What rbigair40 mentioned about rolling a track and gassing on the face of a jump is also true in my opinion, it's one of the things that makes a 4 easier to ride.
A good example is at my local track a 450 is able to launch in 3rd and pretty much stay in that gear the whole lap, boring but fast. meanwhile i'm up and down gears and on the clutch, much more fun.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 17, 2011, 02:24:00 PM
It fully amazes me that some people come on here and start praising 4-strokes (to any degree). Most of us have ridden a 4-stroke. Do you really think that you're going to convince us that 4-strokes are really that great? Sure a 450F is faster than a 250 and a 250F is faster than a 125. Don't you think we know this? Who cares if all the sudden you jumped on a 4-stroke and had your eyes opened to how much faster you were on a 4-stroke? Who are you preaching to? We know there's the OEM's wave of the future is high dollar, high tech 4-strokes. Do you think most of us on here don't see what's going on? Or that somehow we're off in a cave somewhere and need to be enlightened by a born again 4-stroke fanatic? Why do people like this even come on here and post?
I just don't like having bulls**t claims jammed down my throat whether they're pro 2 or 4.
I love my 2t and thats all i'll ever own. I just reckon some people get too caught up in the pro 2t talk without any real basis for there opinions.
I'm not saying i like or agree with any of whats happened in MX with the advent of high tech 4 stroke machines, i'm just trying to keep it real.
The technology and development of the 4's is now at such a level that they can compete on par with 2t's 250 vs 250. thats a fact, like i've said i believe most riders these days would be faster on a new 250F. now i'm not happy about that and there are a number of reasons for this and they all suck, but i think alot of people on here underestimate the new 4's and or overestimate the oldschool 2t's.
I'm also not factoring into my argument the cost or maintenance schedules of the 4's, these things all are contributing to the decline of the sport i reckon. All i'm doing is saying how it is on the track right now with the new 4's. They're fast and 250f's can definitely compete with and beat 250 2t's.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: luthier269 on August 17, 2011, 02:26:05 PM
Around here people are dumping 4ts because guys are winning big on 2ts. Guys that were in the points lead on a 250f switched to 250 2ts because they had been beaten  bad by 250 2ts with lesser rides on them. So I don't see a 4t being faster and the weight diffence at the end of a moto the 2ts wins again and don't fall over on the 4ts and stall you may not start it till the race is over.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 17, 2011, 02:50:04 PM
Around here people are dumping 4ts because guys are winning big on 2ts. Guys that were in the points lead on a 250f switched to 250 2ts because they had been beaten  bad by 250 2ts with lesser rides on them. So I don't see a 4t being faster and the weight diffence at the end of a moto the 2ts wins again and don't fall over on the 4ts and stall you may not start it till the race is over.
Fair enough, i agree. I'm just saying what i'm seeing here.
Over here it's 250 vs 250 across the board and the 250f's are competitive.
yes our nationals were won by a pro on a modded 2t, but he only just sneaked in and had to fight hard for it, and this is Darryl King we're talking about. There were no other 2t's in the top 10.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: citabjockey on August 17, 2011, 03:01:11 PM
Given a class of 250 4T versus 250 2T, various tracks and various rider levels, neglecting the "fun" factor, which style bike do you guys think would net the riders a better trophies-per-dollar ratio?


Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 17, 2011, 03:36:20 PM
Around here people are dumping 4ts because guys are winning big on 2ts. Guys that were in the points lead on a 250f switched to 250 2ts because they had been beaten  bad by 250 2ts with lesser rides on them. So I don't see a 4t being faster and the weight diffence at the end of a moto the 2ts wins again and don't fall over on the 4ts and stall you may not start it till the race is over.
Fair enough, i agree. I'm just saying what i'm seeing here.
Over here it's 250 vs 250 across the board and the 250f's are competitive.
yes our nationals were won by a pro on a modded 2t, but he only just sneaked in and had to fight hard for it, and this is Darryl King we're talking about. There were no other 2t's in the top 10.

That's pretty cool. He's 42 and still won the series. Pretty awesome.  The question will be, is how many 2 strokes line up next year?  If it is anything like over here, they have started switching after getting beat by the 2 strokes in offroad.
"There is a lot of buzz about the 2012 KTM two-strokes and it's not just the sound from the exhaust. The latest news making its way to the talk boards involves Factory FMF/KTM riders Cory Buttrick and Charlie Mullins who will be making the switch to the 250 XC two-stroke motorcycles for the remaining National Enduro rounds.


Three-time National Enduro Champion, Russell Bobbitt, has been a "two-stroker" throughout his career with KTM and has won all three of his championships aboard his 250 XC race machine. After witnessing his success and trying the new 2012 models, Buttrick and Mullins have decided to give it a whirl."
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: 2b on August 17, 2011, 05:07:35 PM
Hello all, I am knew to this site as of Today.
I recently sold my 2005 yz250f after racing it for a few years, Had a kx125 before that but hadn't ridden in 7 years when i first got my 250f. i loved it at first until i started getting faster and trying to set it up to turn and handle better..
I could never get it to handle the way i remember my old 1990kx125.  + when it came time to rebuild it i paid 1000$ for the workshop to do it and all i got was a piston/rings/camchain. no new valves or nothing actually it was $1100. so 1 year later i thought its time to rebuild again but no way im paying that again. So i sold it for $4000 and brought a 2006 yz250 for $4500. a $500 upgrade for me couldnt have been better! i am now 4 seconds a lap faster than i ever was on the 250F!! get holeshots, have fun, corner easier,  and im actually looking forward to the rebuild. i love  my "new" 6 year old bike. I have ridden 2010 250's / 450's.. What really sold me on the twostroke was riding my mates gas gas 300 and TM300, it had bottom end power my 250f could only dream of + a scary fast powerband to match. i figured i could make a yz250 have heaps of bottom like the 300, but have actually gotten used to the topend and love it, it has quite abit of bottom as well, with the PC Works pipe and Muffler i can lug it a gear high also. I will probably buy a flywheel weight to see what its like. But i know for sure i will never buy another 4stroke again! I race B blass in NZ and am seeing more and more 2stokes on the line as its equal displacement rules here and the amount of money needed to make a 250f competitive against a 6year old 250t is just unreasonable i have found and many others are quickly finding out too.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 17, 2011, 05:13:01 PM
Around here people are dumping 4ts because guys are winning big on 2ts. Guys that were in the points lead on a 250f switched to 250 2ts because they had been beaten  bad by 250 2ts with lesser rides on them. So I don't see a 4t being faster and the weight diffence at the end of a moto the 2ts wins again and don't fall over on the 4ts and stall you may not start it till the race is over.
Fair enough, i agree. I'm just saying what i'm seeing here.
Over here it's 250 vs 250 across the board and the 250f's are competitive.
yes our nationals were won by a pro on a modded 2t, but he only just sneaked in and had to fight hard for it, and this is Darryl King we're talking about. There were no other 2t's in the top 10.

That's pretty cool. He's 42 and still won the series. Pretty awesome.  The question will be, is how many 2 strokes line up next year?  If it is anything like over here, they have started switching after getting beat by the 2 strokes in offroad.
"There is a lot of buzz about the 2012 KTM two-strokes and it's not just the sound from the exhaust. The latest news making its way to the talk boards involves Factory FMF/KTM riders Cory Buttrick and Charlie Mullins who will be making the switch to the 250 XC two-stroke motorcycles for the remaining National Enduro rounds.


Three-time National Enduro Champion, Russell Bobbitt, has been a "two-stroker" throughout his career with KTM and has won all three of his championships aboard his 250 XC race machine. After witnessing his success and trying the new 2012 models, Buttrick and Mullins have decided to give it a whirl."
Yep he's a legend for sure, came out of retirement and won the series. him and his brothers are world class. I hope the riders he manages see his success on the smoker and make the change themselves. I'd love to see the top 10 filled with 2t's.
Speaking of offroad, slightly different ballgame and i'm surprised anyone tries to muscle those overheating pigs round those courses. without pressure from the factorys i doubt there would've even been such a swing to 4stroke machines.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TotalNZ on August 17, 2011, 05:20:03 PM
Hello all, I am knew to this site as of Today.
I recently sold my 2005 yz250f after racing it for a few years, Had a kx125 before that but hadn't ridden in 7 years when i first got my 250f. i loved it at first until i started getting faster and trying to set it up to turn and handle better..
I could never get it to handle the way i remember my old 1990kx125.  + when it came time to rebuild it i paid 1000$ for the workshop to do it and all i got was a piston/rings/camchain. no new valves or nothing actually it was $1100. so 1 year later i thought its time to rebuild again but no way im paying that again. So i sold it for $4000 and brought a 2006 yz250 for $4500. a $500 upgrade for me couldnt have been better! i am now 4 seconds a lap faster than i ever was on the 250F!! get holeshots, have fun, corner easier,  and im actually looking forward to the rebuild. i love  my "new" 6 year old bike. I have ridden 2010 250's / 450's.. What really sold me on the twostroke was riding my mates gas gas 300 and TM300, it had bottom end power my 250f could only dream of + a scary fast powerband to match. i figured i could make a yz250 have heaps of bottom like the 300, but have actually gotten used to the topend and love it, it has quite abit of bottom as well, with the PC Works pipe and Muffler i can lug it a gear high also. I will probably buy a flywheel weight to see what its like. But i know for sure i will never buy another 4stroke again! I race B blass in NZ and am seeing more and more 2stokes on the line as its equal displacement rules here and the amount of money needed to make a 250f competitive against a 6year old 250t is just unreasonable i have found and many others are quickly finding out too.
Thats great to hear, where abouts in NZ are you? i think it's the b graders and clubmen that will drive the change because of the costs involved in 4 stroke machines.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: 2b on August 17, 2011, 05:59:37 PM
I am in Whakatane what about you? one of my mates sold his 2006 crf450 and now has a 2009 ktm250sx, it runs down 450's on straights ive seen him. and the fact he can run that bike in ANY class, just seems silly trying to race a 125 against 250f and 250t all in the same class, another reason why i have the 250t :D, i just dont like the way the KTM handles but my mate does, i know i love my yz250 and wont be parting with it unless yamaha's 2013 model is updated.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: 2b on August 17, 2011, 06:09:02 PM
so the 2t is (10 times!!) cheaper for me to rebuild in NZ, if i buy a new yz250 piston from the U.S.A for 50bucks <- as they cost 250$ locally.
that works out to around 100bucks after conversion and tax for the piston.   my old bike cost 11 times that for a new piston etc and the motor still needed valves adjusting  >:(      my old yamaha 250f was reliable and did never blow up on me even after 200hours but the cost of oilchanges and rebuilds just isnt worth it, and the fact that im way faster in the 2t is a bonus. maybe i never could get comfortable on the 4t cause i grew up riding 2strokes. I thought that when i first got the yz250 i wouldnt be able to corner because of the power being to explosive and no engine braking but i can lay it way over and put it where i want and it steers with the back wheel, hardly need to slow down to turn because it actually goes where i want, im finding myself thinking about lines again instead of riding the outside 4stroke line all the time, This applies to Trails too, people on four strokes dont think about lines they just always go outside, and they cant change their mind once their in the rut like and go a smoother line like i can now  :D
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 17, 2011, 06:18:29 PM
just wanted to post this up for some of you. Now i know these kids aren't your everyday riders but I think some of you may be surprised at how steady the lap times were. And this is on a 125 probably the hardest bike to ride fast

http://lorettas11.tracksideresults.com/laptimes.asp?s=&c=30&e=1&rn=1&rt=M (http://lorettas11.tracksideresults.com/laptimes.asp?s=&c=30&e=1&rn=1&rt=M)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: luthier269 on August 17, 2011, 08:11:42 PM
Check out the other class times and the 125's were close and some faster than 250's. As always its the rider over the bike!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 17, 2011, 08:27:26 PM
I just don't like having bulls**t claims jammed down my throat whether they're pro 2 or 4. I love my 2t and thats all i'll ever own. I just reckon some people get too caught up in the pro 2t talk without any real basis for there opinions.

Thats exactly how I feel to. Its no secret I like both but when somone starts making rediculous claims I cant help but to disagree. Especially when were talking about racing.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 18, 2011, 12:37:40 AM
Some of you are giving the 4t too much credit. When looking at lap times done by 250v250 comparisons I don't believe the 250f will run faster laps '9 times out of 10'. Most riders you see will have a faster lap on a 250, although the 250 will also run the slowest lap. The 250f is more consistent, and easier to ride. Not faster.
Yes i agree, but winning races means being able to string consecutive fast laps together.
I totally agree that i could turn a couple super fast laps on my 2t but it's hard to do that for a whole race ie the challenge i spoke of earlier.
4bangers are easier to ride, so you can ride at a faster pace for longer.

Then again these were riders that were more used to four strokes. Take people who are used to two strokes who can string together six consistent laps. You have an all 'round faster bike.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 18, 2011, 06:02:55 AM
It fully amazes me that some people come on here and start praising 4-strokes (to any degree). Most of us have ridden a 4-stroke. Do you really think that you're going to convince us that 4-strokes are really that great? Sure a 450F is faster than a 250 and a 250F is faster than a 125. Don't you think we know this? Who cares if all the sudden you jumped on a 4-stroke and had your eyes opened to how much faster you were on a 4-stroke? Who are you preaching to? We know there's the OEM's wave of the future is high dollar, high tech 4-strokes. Do you think most of us on here don't see what's going on? Or that somehow we're off in a cave somewhere and need to be enlightened by a born again 4-stroke fanatic? Why do people like this even come on here and post?
I just don't like having bulls**t claims jammed down my throat whether they're pro 2 or 4.
I love my 2t and thats all i'll ever own. I just reckon some people get too caught up in the pro 2t talk without any real basis for there opinions.
I'm not saying i like or agree with any of whats happened in MX with the advent of high tech 4 stroke machines, i'm just trying to keep it real.
The technology and development of the 4's is now at such a level that they can compete on par with 2t's 250 vs 250. thats a fact, like i've said i believe most riders these days would be faster on a new 250F. now i'm not happy about that and there are a number of reasons for this and they all suck, but i think alot of people on here underestimate the new 4's and or overestimate the oldschool 2t's.
I'm also not factoring into my argument the cost or maintenance schedules of the 4's, these things all are contributing to the decline of the sport i reckon. All i'm doing is saying how it is on the track right now with the new 4's. They're fast and 250f's can definitely compete with and beat 250 2t's.

The same talk 5 years ago would have been welcomed. No all the sudden that 2-strokes are on the way out, to mention it at all, or give it any praise is ramming it down your throat. It almost seems that anyone who offers anything positive about a 2-stroke is now considered some kind of weird, radical, die hard or something. I don't think I'm ramming any bull---t claims down your throat, but we already know that 4-strokes are a way more advanced machine than the current 2-strokes. To have that many moving parts at a high rpm, all moving in sync is simply amazing. The fact that they don't need premix and have gotten as light as they are, and can turn lap times as good or faster than a equal 2-stroke is a marvel in technology. In fact, I got on an '06 KX450F and it seemed a little slow compared to my 07 CR250. After a few minutes I was amazed at how smooth it was. I knew that it was a high tech, high dollar machine and was well engineered, probably a little better engineered than my CR. I know this-we all do.

But my CR is no longer available, as are almost all OEMs 2-strokes. How long do you think Yamaha is going to keep making the YZ? KTM may hold on for a little while, as will Husaberg. The 2-stroke is disappearing. That's great if you want to rave about a machine that is widely available and is the future, but don't piously turn your nose just because we give an argument for the 2-stroke, which soon will not be available.

While 4-strokes bulldoze and bully consumers into submission, the attitude against a different machine than what is being rammed down our throats is becoming increasingly hostile.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: SachsGS on August 18, 2011, 06:39:43 AM
2Ts disappearing? I don't think so.Why would any engineer attempt to accomplish with a 4T what can be done more simply and more effectively (and more cheaply) with a 2T? If you throw enough money at anything you will eventually accomplish the task though the more intelligent approach may be a different approach. DI 2Ts are already displacing 4T$ in the snowmobile and outboard markets,the DI moped will reign supreme and anyone seen a 4T chainsaw lately?

 The most elegant solution from the design vantage point is the direct injected two cycle engine,and once all of the economy of scale ducks are lined up - you can say goodbye to the 4T.   
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: chump6784 on August 18, 2011, 06:45:35 AM
i dont see 2 strokes dying off at all. Eventually maybe yamaha and ktm will stop making MOTOCROSS 2 strokes but with ktm and now husaberg committed to the 2 strokes in enduro circles they wont die. the worst we will have to do is take an enduro model bike, strip it down, beef up the suspension, add some poke to the engine and we have a motocross 2 stroke again
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 18, 2011, 08:22:35 AM
Obviously not all 2-stroke engines disappearing!

I meant 2-strokes from motorcycle racing! We're on the same team, right? For some reason, I'm feeling a little attacked simply because I gave a long reply to TotalNZ.

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 18, 2011, 08:32:29 AM
Quote
...you can say goodbye to the 4T

I don't think so. There will always be a market for them - better or not. I just see more and more people coming back to the 2T and with the future bright with new technology for cleaning them up, even more will jump the fence.

Personaly, I'd like to see the 4$ go back to being 4T (like the XR and TT). Super reliable tractors, built for longevity. Not built to use and thow away.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 18, 2011, 08:44:30 AM
Well, actually 4Ts will shortly price themselves out of business. There will always be people willing to pay $10K for a dirt bike, but what do you do when you plop down that money and the thing has an engine failure. Not too many people are going to spend that much anyway, but how many can afford to spend another $2K to fix it.

If you don't think 2-strokes are disappearing from Professional MX and SX, then you need to look again. I don't want to come across as having no hope for the 2-stroke motorcycle or its further development, but right now, there is a huge force against the 2-stroke motorcycle. Those forces begin with Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki and all the companies they pressure into submission (in Pro Racing).

The hope is that the high prices of 4-strokes combined with the economy will cause the OEMs and others to see the 2-stroke as a viable racing alternative, and begin pressuring the AMA to change the rules to allow it. Or for another series to rise up to include the 2-stroke.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 18, 2011, 08:59:45 AM
What's interesting to me, is people who prefer 4 strokes, post on a forum that is called twostrokemotocross.com  Just boggles my mind.  :-X  So who's trying to shove anything down who's throat? Seems they came here to tell us how good the 4 choke is...
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 18, 2011, 09:10:30 AM
Exactly. No one caught that part of the post.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 18, 2011, 09:34:28 AM
The delusion of the 4-stroke can only last so long. They're just becoming too expensive. Not only the bikes, but the parts and service as well. Sure some will last for a good year before it craters, but the OEMs make up this money on the sticker price. Some will crater within 6 months, maybe sooner if they're raced hard. The prices of parts and bikes will only increase.

Sure 2-strokes are expensive too, but there is no hidden cost to make up. A 2-stroke is a way more simplistic and less expensive racing alternative, based on future racing and maintenance. They both require maintenance, but with less moving parts, you have less inherent expense.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: VintageBlueSmoke on August 18, 2011, 10:01:51 AM
The other thing to look at is at the gates. Used to be that they had to limit the number of riders signing up for a national or world event. The rules limit it to 120 I believe but just watching the races on the World stage, they can't get 40 to the gate. It is a little better in the US but I don't remember seeing 90 riders sign up in a long time.

As more riders switch back the the 2T, more will appear on the gate.

If you look at the (more fair) off-road events, they are limiting gates in the hundreds. Alligator is 700, I believe and the GNCC's are down to something like 600. Baja and the other western races are the same way.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 18, 2011, 10:56:22 AM
Burn you've lost your marbles, two strokes are highly efficient in motocross there is no way around that. The engines are built to perform in this fashion. There's no way they are disappearing. Have you read my last few posts? I made them nice short and sweet rather than typing paragraphs about it, which I could very well do but the main point is that I am seeing a change! Less four strokes more two strokes! If Husa is only importing two strokes what does that tell you? They dont think they will make any sort of profit from their bangers. If they did see a profit in future from them, even a couple dollars you know they would have done it for the publicity, but they feel that they would be losing so much money its not even worth the publicity of shipping the bikes over. Obviously these guys spent a lot of time making this decision, you can't let that go to waste.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 18, 2011, 11:03:54 AM
Here's one thing that I don't think a lot of people understand, even on the 2 stroke favored side.  2 strokes, have powerbands, because in search for higher hp they lost lowend. To alievate that to some degree, they made a thing called a power valve.  Has anyone rode a KD/KE100?  While riding that bike, did you feel that the power was uncontrollable, and wanted to spin or let loose?  Have those same people rode a XR or CRF100 before?  How similar was this power? Pretty much same power characteristics but had more power?  I get made fun of, from my knowledge of these things, because of what the knowledge that most people have, is what they've learned from riding mx 2 strokes.  Meaning, they think all 2 strokes have to have race type powerbands. It can't be further from the truth.  If you look at two dyno charts of a 250F and a 250 2 stroke, the torque and hp are always higher on the 250 2 stroke. If you know anything about building a motor, you know you can always smooth out and lower both on a 2 stroke, and they will still be higher than that of a 250F.  Like TotalNZ stated, it is just not what most people, think they want. But those same people (not you Totalnz) will sell that 250 2 stroke and go buy a 250F.  If anyone doubts what I say, take your 250 2 stroke, and lock the powervalve closed (not open). Then get a flywheel weight.  Then jet it to run correctly.  You will be very suprised at the outcome.  That is a simplified version of the mods I do, thus, the power output may be lower than that of a 250F, but it will give the outcome of what I speak of. No all or nothing powerband, just smooth no spin riding. The best part of a 250 2 stroke modded to run like a 250F?  The motor will last even longer than it would have stock.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 18, 2011, 11:13:37 AM
Not to mention that if you're used to two strokes (I've never owned a four stroke racer) even a non powervalved two stroke is controllable to ride and race. I loved my non powervalved bikes just as much as my 125.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 18, 2011, 11:39:44 AM
Not to mention that if you're used to two strokes (I've never owned a four stroke racer) even a non powervalved two stroke is controllable to ride and race. I loved my non powervalved bikes just as much as my 125.
Totally agree. The CR500AF was pretty smooth. The main problem it had, wasn't that it had a "powerband," it just had too much power.  So like I've said, a 350 2 stroke with balanced motor and electric start would probably kill all. As you go up in cc's, the less you need to have a powervalve. The torque and hp are fine without it. A DI would probably just help it, that much more...
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ktm150rippa on August 18, 2011, 12:56:08 PM
this may be a stupid question considering I'm a two stroke rider. I know how to change one put it back on in top end jobs all that jazz but what exactly is the powervalve like what is it's function? I know it opens at a certain rpm and gives you a major boost but what is it introducing more air/gas or what?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 18, 2011, 02:03:47 PM
Not to mention that if you're used to two strokes (I've never owned a four stroke racer) even a non powervalved two stroke is controllable to ride and race. I loved my non powervalved bikes just as much as my 125.

I was just like that ^^ Up untill 2006 I had never rode a 4 stroke motocross bike. At a race one morning I completely mangled my YZ250 in the first practice. After alot of nagging from a friend I agreed to ride his 450 in late practice. It took about 2 laps to realize those big stupid sounding thumpers were alot easier to ride fast.

And personally I couldnt imagine riding a 2 stroke without an explosive powerband. Thats what makes it fun right?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: snook620 on August 18, 2011, 02:04:43 PM
double post
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 18, 2011, 02:19:39 PM
Burn you've lost your marbles, two strokes are highly efficient in motocross there is no way around that. The engines are built to perform in this fashion. There's no way they are disappearing. Have you read my last few posts? I made them nice short and sweet rather than typing paragraphs about it, which I could very well do but the main point is that I am seeing a change! Less four strokes more two strokes! If Husa is only importing two strokes what does that tell you? They dont think they will make any sort of profit from their bangers. If they did see a profit in future from them, even a couple dollars you know they would have done it for the publicity, but they feel that they would be losing so much money its not even worth the publicity of shipping the bikes over. Obviously these guys spent a lot of time making this decision, you can't let that go to waste.

My bad
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 18, 2011, 03:44:53 PM
this may be a stupid question considering I'm a two stroke rider. I know how to change one put it back on in top end jobs all that jazz but what exactly is the powervalve like what is it's function? I know it opens at a certain rpm and gives you a major boost but what is it introducing more air/gas or what?
It kinda does the same thing, if you would run a small carb on your bike. It would give you more low end, but it would take away topend, because the flow can only move so much air.  So when closed, it restricts the flow. (It also changes the sound waves, but that is more indepth) Too much air in a motor, when it is at low RPMs can work against you. So when you close that power valve at low RPMs, it limits the air flow, but when it opens up, with RPM or electronic valves, it starts flowing more air, thus the rise in HP at that point. Try running a 40mm carb on a 125. It will have 0 bottom, but if the motor can accept the 40mm flow at top end, that thing will sing. On the big bore motor, apples to apples like a 500AF vs 450F, you don't need it so much, because the torque of the 2 stroke will still give you enough low end to beat the 450F anywhere in the curve. One thing to keep in mind on the big 500AF's, is that they use the same carb as the 125's now a days. 38mm.  HP would be out of this world with a matching carb, unless you believe a 500 breaths the same as the 125s do.   I'll compare 250 2 strokes to 250 4 chokes instead of skewing things, because the people who keep on saying how great the 4 strokes are, always bring up how great the 450F is, blacking out the 250F as if it doesn't exist, like the media does Ron Paul. Even though as amateurs, we run cc vs cc mostly.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 18, 2011, 04:10:21 PM
Made me think about something.   :P    I wonder how much HP a CR500 motor would have if you ran 3 38mm carbs like it probably could breath correctly. For low end, you could actually run them like a powervalve does. One opens at a time rated by RPM's.  100+ HP?
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: SachsGS on August 18, 2011, 06:43:35 PM
My big Maicos are powervalved (I also have a non powervalved Maico 490 to compare to) and the powervalve gives the motors a silky feel to the power.The powervalve also allows the motor to produce more power but you don't really feel it as the power is so linear.

Some of the old big bore XTs and XLs ran a dual throat carb set up.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 18, 2011, 06:56:17 PM
My xr350r had dual carbs.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TMKIWI on August 18, 2011, 09:25:34 PM
Look what happens when i go away for a few days.
14 pages of people talking shit.

I need more pain killers. ;)
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 19, 2011, 05:12:27 AM
It's all miedoso's fault ;D
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: SwapperMX on August 19, 2011, 06:42:07 AM
Man what happened around here. It seems that it isn't just 4 stroke lovers that are delusional !!

 ???  ???  ???

Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 19, 2011, 08:08:49 AM
Man what happened around here. It seems that it isn't just 4 stroke lovers that are delusional !!

 ???  ???  ???



Please list anything that I have said that aren't FACTS, regarding the dispute about what was posted with 2 vs 4 in racing>?  Thanks
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: SwapperMX on August 19, 2011, 09:27:08 AM
Man what happened around here. It seems that it isn't just 4 stroke lovers that are delusional !!

 ???  ???  ???



Please list anything that I have said that aren't FACTS, regarding the dispute about what was posted with 2 vs 4 in racing>?  Thanks
Hey man,
None of that was aimed at you at all. Dont know why you thought that. You are old school round here and have my respect. It was more an overview of a few of the threads as well as this one that I have read tonight. Props for your vital posts also !!
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 19, 2011, 09:41:37 AM
Oh, that's cool. I was just worried. I know I'm getting some guys on here, that are kinda raggin on me about how harsh I'm being about proving my point.  I just don't like to be lied too, or agenda's that try to lean things in a way to skew the truth.  Thanks on the vital thingy too. Although I am about ready to point out there, that since they can't post about 450's, they don't seem to have any ammo left.  I'm still waiting for an answer from both those guys claiming more reliability. 
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 19, 2011, 09:42:56 AM
I believe Swap is referring to my reference of 2-strokes disappearing from pro MX and SX.

Well, I didn't state myself too well in trying to defend 2-strokes to several 4-stroke lovers whom everyone seems to adore now.

To clarify, 2 strokes have been edged out of Pro MX and SX, basically from misinformation and eradication by the OEMs (of course this has come from pressuring the AMA to allow unfair rules for the 2-stroke in AMA Pro Racing). This has caused the 2-stroke to virtually disappear from AMA Pro MX and SX, and the GP classes. This is very disturbing and there has been an ongoing effort to get them back in (petition, letters, phone calls, etc).

The reason for this eradication put forth by the 4-stroke guys in this thread, is that 4-strokes are a far better racing machine, and if anyone could get on one they would see how great it is. Furthermore, they said that they wish that 2-strokers would quit ramming 2-stroke verbage down their throats, and just open their minds to the wonder of the 4-stroke.

I have agreed that many people can go faster on a 450F or 250F than their AMA legal 2-stroke counterparts (250 and 125). But I went on to mention that this is not the issue at hand, and that even though the 2-stroke IMO is a viable alternative to a high tech, high dollar 4 stroke, efforts need to be made to further the 2-stroke cause so that what has happened in Pro MX and SX won't spill over into the other disciplines, like Off-Road racing (which is strong for now).
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: burn1986 on August 19, 2011, 10:45:32 AM
Hmmm... 11 pages so far about something that was created with the stroke of a pen.

The real issue is that through marketing the average joe believes that it's fair for a four-stroke to be larger than a two-stroke. While at the same time claiming they are better. Not sure how that adds up, but it's what's causing the rift even between fellow two-strokers.

Here's something that will cause a bit of trouble. I love four-strokes!

There is a place for them. While at the races I watched some of the older vet guys and their four-strokes will probably last for 10 years or more.

The problem is that the rule change created years ago has confused old timers and bamboozled younger racers who grew up after the four stroke "revolution" began.

Yes the speeds of the races is higher. This is due to the "straightening" of the tracks. There are very few "difficult" sections or tight corners, everything is sweeping and banked. Sort of like NASCAR.

In a conversation with Rich Winkler (the guy that builds the AMA Supercross tracks) the indoor tracks have been modified in a huge way to accommodate the four-strokes.

Keep in mind one important factor when discussing the difference between the two-strokes and four-strokes, there is no fair comparison. Why? It's all a marketing driven.

All pro racing is designed to sell bikes. Plain and simple. Currently the bikes the manufacturers are trying to sell are four-strokes. The good news for us two-stroke fans, is that it's backfiring like a rusty old Model T. The warehouses are full of four-strokes the manufacturers can't give away.

The future will be different.... get out your crystal ball to see what it's going to look like!

Good points, for sure.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: rbigair40 on August 19, 2011, 12:59:13 PM
this may be a stupid question considering I'm a two stroke rider. I know how to change one put it back on in top end jobs all that jazz but what exactly is the powervalve like what is it's function? I know it opens at a certain rpm and gives you a major boost but what is it introducing more air/gas or what?
you heard when you get it up on the pipe ?? that would be when you get the hit, and the pipe is made to deliver sound waves at a certain time .when the wave bounces back to the exhaust port it keeps the fuel charge from exiting the cylinder giving it better combustion ,power ,torque ,and emissions
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: TMKIWI on August 19, 2011, 01:06:23 PM
Just my 2 cents worth.
Why are we argueing over pro rules.?
I dont think it matters.
If the amature rules allow 250 = 250 that is where the change will come.
If Johnny is getting beaten on his CRF250 by his mate on his YZ/SX 250 then maybe he will change to a YZ/SX and Honda looses another rider.Then we have 1 more smoker in the feild. Then another and so on.
It will take awhile same as it took awhile for 4 strokes to take over.
The guy that race's will buy what is best for them, not what Dungey is riding.
What needs to happen is for a manufactor to support amatures on smokers, which might not be in their best interest now but it must be soon.
Is it best to sell some low cost smokers which they dont make much money on parts, Or have warehouses full of high cost 4 srokes that they dont make ANY money on.Can't make money if you don't sell them.

PS If you want to help ,Help the manufactors that still put effort into smokers.
TM/HUSKY/KTM/HUSABERG/GAS GAS.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: ACMX on August 19, 2011, 01:19:35 PM
Not to mention that if you're used to two strokes (I've never owned a four stroke racer) even a non powervalved two stroke is controllable to ride and race. I loved my non powervalved bikes just as much as my 125.

I was just like that ^^ Up untill 2006 I had never rode a 4 stroke motocross bike. At a race one morning I completely mangled my YZ250 in the first practice. After alot of nagging from a friend I agreed to ride his 450 in late practice. It took about 2 laps to realize those big stupid sounding thumpers were alot easier to ride fast.

And personally I couldnt imagine riding a 2 stroke without an explosive powerband. Thats what makes it fun right?

No I've ridden plenty of four strokes. 250f's and 450's. More than one lap of course. All I can say is I hated the 250f I could NEVER race one of those. The 450 had a lot of power which I could see myself having fun on for a good ten to twenty minutes... But I can see myself being faster on the 250 and have more fun at the same time.
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: miedosoracing on August 19, 2011, 02:11:24 PM
Just my 2 cents worth.
Why are we argueing over pro rules.?
I dont think it matters.
If the amature rules allow 250 = 250 that is where the change will come.
If Johnny is getting beaten on his CRF250 by his mate on his YZ/SX 250 then maybe he will change to a YZ/SX and Honda looses another rider.Then we have 1 more smoker in the feild. Then another and so on.
It will take awhile same as it took awhile for 4 strokes to take over.
The guy that race's will buy what is best for them, not what Dungey is riding.
What needs to happen is for a manufactor to support amatures on smokers, which might not be in their best interest now but it must be soon.
Is it best to sell some low cost smokers which they dont make much money on parts, Or have warehouses full of high cost 4 srokes that they dont make ANY money on.Can't make money if you don't sell them.

PS If you want to help ,Help the manufactors that still put effort into smokers.
TM/HUSKY/KTM/HUSABERG/GAS GAS.
+1  But I really feel the biggest step is if a magazine ever does a full shootout.  Then it will be "check please waiter."
Title: Re: 4 $troke lovers= delusional people
Post by: citabjockey on August 19, 2011, 03:25:59 PM

What needs to happen is for a manufactor to support amatures on smokers, which might not be in their best interest now but it must be soon.
Is it best to sell some low cost smokers which they dont make much money on parts, Or have warehouses full of high cost 4 srokes that they dont make ANY money on.Can't make money if you don't sell them.

Exactly. EVENTUALLY general folk who race on their own time will start to do the trophies per dollar calculation and determine that a 2T provides a better ratio.

PS If you want to help ,Help the manufactors that still put effort into smokers.
TM/HUSKY/KTM/HUSABERG/GAS GAS.

Right On! My next bike is one of these when they can be off-road (not just MX) year round in CA.