4 $troke lovers= delusional people

[citabjockey]

Where we are NOT delusional is in the increased cost of racing due to cams and valves. Our sport would grow if it didn't cost so darn much. Would be better for all if rules made less costly 2T competitive which lowers the barriers to entry.

I don't think that horse is dead enough yet...   

We might be the "delusional" ones by thinking about what is RIGHT rather than what IS.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

I totally agree with you, citabjocky. However, sometimes I feel like I am the "dirty hippy" preaching peace when I should be the "Hawk" and opening up a can of woopass.

You can like whatever engine design you prefer but at the end of the day - and until the rules change or a new technology becomes available (DI?), the over priced - over engineered -  over weight 4$ will be the weapon to take to the fight.

[miedosoracing]

btw is buds 250 down? Last round he was on the pig......

Hmm, haven't spoken with him. I just texted him, but was kinda suspecting something. Texts came slowly lately.  That sucks, cuz he was doing good on it. Will wait to see what he says. 

[Suzuki TS250/185]

450's aren't, have never been, and will never be the weapon to take to the fight, unless you are personally better suited to a 4 stroke. And neither are any of the other foopers. The fact is that until the industry began placing all their top purchased humans on 4 strokes out of desperation, almost no one could flog a hippo to any kind of race win.

Up to and including 2005, there was a mix of 2 and 4 stroke machines being ridden by the top stars. The problem for the powers that be was that this mixture of machine types was making the Flumpers they were trying to hype look pretty bad... Check out the video!
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrMJS1971#p/u/32/dpqnurJcDkc

The Flumper pushers tried to do everything they could to make the 4 strokes look good. They paid the announcers to gush on and on about how great 4 strokes were (Even if they were larding around the track patheticly) at every chance, while only referring to any 2 stroke bike out there kicking major ass as "the honda" or "the suzuki". The factories tried everything to make sure the right picture was being painted on TV, but in the end nothing was good enough because it's obvious to anyone watching the 2 types of machine compete side by side - WITH COMPARABLE RIDERS ON BOTH TYPES - that the 2 strokes are superior.

Having KDub, as the top 4 stroke finisher at the San Diego Supercross in 05, get LAPPED on his CRF450 by a bunch of guys on 250's sure didn't help make 4 strokes look good either...

In the end, the only way for the factories to get what they wanted out of their weekly TV commercial that's supposed to look like a racing series, was to eliminate 2 strokes from the action altogether by making all their wage slaves ride 4 strokes.      

[chump6784]

As much as i like 2 strokes it seems to me sometimes that some of the people on here are delusional.

In response to Suzuki TS250/125, what about the outdoor national in 05 when Windham on his 450 was giving RC fits on his 250 2T. The GOAT himself couldnt make up for the lack of useable power.

The way the rules are 450's rule the open class and 250f's rule the lites class, riding a 2 stroke with those rules is putting yourself at a disadvantage. Now if all of America had the same rules as oz we may see something different. over here it is (up to) 250 class and (up to) 450 class, regardless of stroke for ALL motocross competition. Even still, 4 strokes are the biggest sellers. why? 2 reasons. 1st is advertising. 2nd, more people go the same speed or faster more consistently on a 4 stroke. they are easier to ride over a long period of time on more surfaces.

Some people like the way a 2 stroke hits but watch the video of RC riding his RM 250 in his back yard and listen to nearly the first thing that comes out of his mouth when he pulls his helmet off. Wow 4 strokes have come a long way, so much grip

he wasnt trying to sell 4 strokes, he was appreciating what they have become. it will take a special kind of rider to put a 2t, even with fair rules, around a track faster than a 4 stroke.

flame suit on

[Suzuki TS250/185]

The goat wasn't on a 250 outdoors in 05.

Good line of reasoning though, keep working on it and try presenting it when you have at least a foggy idea of the facts.... mmmmkay?

[snook620]

Having KDub, as the top 4 stroke finisher, get LAPPED on his CRF450 by a bunch of guys on 250's sure didn't help make 4 strokes look good either...      

K-Dub is a bad example...

2003 MX - comes back after a year off to ride a new 450. Won some moto's including a couple over all's and placed 2nd in the series behind Carmichael. Not to much lapping going on that season.....
2004 SX -  Season long battle with Reed including 5 wins. Second in the series again.....not much lapping going on that season either?
2004 MX - Not a season to write home about but still finished 3rd in the series. He was probably lapped a few times...
2005 SX - 3rd in the series behind Carmichael and Reed.
2005 MX - 2nd in the series again and the only guy to come close to Carmichael.
2006 SX - Sat out untill the end of the series
2006 MX - 2nd in the series again. By this time everyone is riding 450s

He's never been lapped by 'a bunch of guys' any time in his career.

[snook620]

flame suit on

I lol'd so hard

You'll need it in here. If your going to talk down on the all-mighty you better have your facts straight. lol

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Kevin Windham is one of the greatest riders ever. No question about that.

KDub lapped (on 450cc FLUMPER) by at least a couple guys (on 250cc Motocross Bikes)
Ama Supercross 2005 San Diego Part 1.

Ama Supercross 2005 San Diego Part 2.

His incredible talent as a rider is one of the reasons I felt sorry for him when he had to go out there and wrestle that heavy fooper around the track. He should never have had to struggle like that, but when a big company starts throwing lots of money around and pulling strings and telling half truths in order to sell inferior garbage, people are bound to suffer. Most of all, the poor suckers who can't see through the marketing BS and end up buying some garbage with a large chunk of their own money.

[snook620]

Kevin Windham is one of the greatest riders ever. No question about that.

Atleast we agree on something  

Your talking about guys like Carmichael, Reed, LaRocco....those guys arent really human. Im sure there were days when the front runners would lap him but it didnt have anything to do with the motorcycle they were on, they were just better that day.

[factoryX]

Kevin Windham is one of the greatest riders ever. No question about that.

Atleast we agree on something  

Your talking about guys like Carmichael, Reed, LaRocco....those guys arent really human. Im sure there were days when the front runners would lap him but it didnt have anything to do with the motorcycle they were on, they were just better that day.

I Agree with with the not human comment, but the 250's were faster then. 2011-12 4 stroke motors/chassis's would run circles around older generation 4 strokes. They were heavy, and they didn't steer worth a flip. Especially Honda 4 strokes, lol.

I'm not going to lie, modern 4 stroke motors are marvels in the industry, but the fact that older 2 strokes(decade old) are only 1-4 seconds away isn't enough for me to go out and spend $10k on a new 4 stroke.

[miedosoracing]

Seriously, this argument gets so old. Everyone's delusional except the one's who will compare apples to apples. The 450F was NEVER suppose to be comparable to the 250 2 stroke.  It was suppose to eliminate it.  Right from the mouth of people at the top.  They won with Doug Henry on a 400, after that Yamaha stated, we can not consistantly guarantee that the 400 will always beat the 250 2 stroke so we feel the 450 is the number we need approved.  It wasn't about competing. I'd LOVE for anyone to show me in any of the big 4 companies outlook, where they felt they would R&D two competing top level mx bikes in the same category.  Does anyone really believe Honda was gonna R&D both 250 2 strokes and 450F's every year?  I have a bridge to sell in the desert if so.  They had plans, it just had to evolve.  People wouldn't switch from a 2 stroke to a 4 stroke over night ya know.
I seriously get perturbed by you guys on a 2 stroke forum consistantly comparing 250 2 strokes to 450fart machines.  They are not comparable.  The big class should be open cc's.  Put Andrew Short on a KTM 300XC build for SX, and I will show you better placings than this year.  Put Dungey on a 350SX 2 stroke (if KTM would listen to me), and he will be the SX champ in 2012.

[ktm150rippa]

I mean it makes sense. To me as a rider why would I switch to a 400 if it wasn't faster. The oem's goal was to obliterate the 250 so every1 would think they would have to switch which is simply why I boycott honda or really any jap company for that reason they're stuborn think all that matters is there opinion. I hear thats just the japanese way in general if you dont like it tough shit thats cool I'll gladly keep giving ktm my money for awesome 2 strokes and superior european quality!

[xX JonthE Xx]

(on 450cc FLUMPER) (on 250cc Motocross Bikes)

[miedosoracing]

I mean it makes sense. To me as a rider why would I switch to a 400 if it wasn't faster. The oem's goal was to obliterate the 250 so every1 would think they would have to switch which is simply why I boycott honda or really any jap company for that reason they're stuborn think all that matters is there opinion. I hear thats just the japanese way in general if you dont like it tough shit thats cool I'll gladly keep giving ktm my money for awesome 2 strokes and superior european quality!

Kinda like they were told having a nuke site at one of the most fault ridden areas in the world is a bad idea. Tough shit.  Now they say the same thing to the poor people, sending them in to clean up the mess, full well knowing the radiation is deathly high.  The top, just say tough shit, but im not going near it.   Yup.