4 $troke lovers= delusional people

[factoryX]

^lol

but when a pro rides a 250 2t its no comparison, its out right slaughter.

Rubbish.

The lap times between 250F's, 250 smokers & 450's is not that great a gap.

When DK won the NZ Lites championship this year on a YZ250 he did not slaughter the opposition.
He had some 1st,2nd,3rd & 4ths etc.
He was racing some fast Aussies on factory bikes. His YZ had a Pro-Circuit engine & was Ohlined up.
It showed that a worked 250 of both types were competitive.
The bikes were very even on the track.
It's time for 250cc to mean 250cc again.

True, but look at the track layout. Tracks are tighter and smaller than ever with bigger jumps as well, what do you expect?  Its as basic as the video of the ktm 85sx out running entire field of big bore 4 stroke and 2 strokes in that super motard video. I should post a video of a cr500 being out ran in the woods by a cr85. Hell, I would hope with what they are spending on these 4 stroke motor that they are indeed faster. And even if his motor was ported by PC, and it had a good suspension setup, thats what $1000-$3000 tops on top of the bike cost? Compared to what? $10000-$30000 they spend simply setting up these works motors to simply get a couple of extra seconds? A stock 250 4t vs. a stock 250 2t isn't even a comparison. 

[ACMX]

Yeah I saw a video of a kx85 holeshotting the open class  (small start) in a harescramble and running away with it!

[factoryX]

KX85 beats up on CR500 OUCH!
All right it was a kx85, but I was close 

[TotalNZ]

^lol

but when a pro rides a 250 2t its no comparison, its out right slaughter.

Rubbish.

The lap times between 250F's, 250 smokers & 450's is not that great a gap.

When DK won the NZ Lites championship this year on a YZ250 he did not slaughter the opposition.
He had some 1st,2nd,3rd & 4ths etc.
He was racing some fast Aussies on factory bikes. His YZ had a Pro-Circuit engine & was Ohlined up.
It showed that a worked 250 of both types were competitive.
The bikes were very even on the track.
It's time for 250cc to mean 250cc again.

True, but look at the track layout. Tracks are tighter and smaller than ever with bigger jumps as well, what do you expect?  Its as basic as the video of the ktm 85sx out running entire field of big bore 4 stroke and 2 strokes in that super motard video. I should post a video of a cr500 being out ran in the woods by a cr85. Hell, I would hope with what they are spending on these 4 stroke motor that they are indeed faster. And even if his motor was ported by PC, and it had a good suspension setup, thats what $1000-$3000 tops on top of the bike cost? Compared to what? $10000-$30000 they spend simply setting up these works motors to simply get a couple of extra seconds? A stock 250 4t vs. a stock 250 2t isn't even a comparison. 

I have to agree with TMkiwi on this, i've raced against stock modern 250f's and they are fast as f**k, sure they might be bouncing off the limiter and be wrung to the limit but they put all that to the ground which equals fast lap times. I'm sure if you talk to people that actually race 250 2t's against thumpers they'll tell you the same thing.
Here in NZ it is 250 vs 250 and i'm telling you the smokers don't dominate like some of you seem to think. The modern 250F's are FAST even stock.
 Now i love 2strokes and thats all i'll own but i'm realistic about how capable the 4bangers are.

[ktm150rippa]

I hear what your saying totalnz but when i'm catching 250f's on my 150 and I weigh 190lbs It seems like its gonna be alot easier on my 250. Not to mention other than washougal what track in the outdoors isnt ripped like 8 ft deep lol. I think they actually till it up too deep sometimes. But being ripped deep means more traction wich would deff play out to a 2 stroke better than that 250f. I just watched the expert class last weekend an 07 kx 144 railed a new 350sxf sure did sound awesome too!

[miedosoracing]

One thing you guys who say the 2 stroke 250's don't dominate, leave out... The fact that fast riders do not ride a 2 stroke. Unless they are KTM riders and even then it's iffy. Why?  Because they get bikes either really discounted or free, depending on the dealer.  For instance, and fact.  Brandon Haas went to a Yamaha 450F, after asking for a YZ250.  The dealer gave him a better deal on the 450F than a 250 2 stroke with 6 year old development.  How's that for a kick in the teeth.  He went with a 4 stroke, only because he was pressured into it. The dealer wouldn't budge on the 250 2 stroke price, even as a sponsored rider.   But the 450F, got thousands off.  250F's are even cheaper with those discounts. So not many fast riders will shell out an extra couple thousands, just because they want to.  Fact is, Bud Moore is doing very well against 450F's with his 2002 stock CR250R.  I sent him an intake, but other than that and a pipe, stock.  He has not had it ported yet. 

[ktm150rippa]

btw is buds 250 down? Last round he was on the pig......

[snook620]

This reply MUST be true!!! ...It's the same thing they say at Blumper Talk!

HERE'S THE WAY BACK HOME TO BLUMPERTALK

Haha the official TSM...



I can post links to =)

[Shawn36]

One thing you guys who say the 2 stroke 250's don't dominate, leave out... The fact that fast riders do not ride a 2 stroke. Unless they are KTM riders and even then it's iffy. Why?  Because they get bikes either really discounted or free, depending on the dealer.  For instance, and fact.  Brandon Haas went to a Yamaha 450F, after asking for a YZ250.  The dealer gave him a better deal on the 450F than a 250 2 stroke with 6 year old development.  How's that for a kick in the teeth.  He went with a 4 stroke, only because he was pressured into it. The dealer wouldn't budge on the 250 2 stroke price, even as a sponsored rider.   But the 450F, got thousands off.  250F's are even cheaper with those discounts. So not many fast riders will shell out an extra couple thousands, just because they want to.  Fact is, Bud Moore is doing very well against 450F's with his 2002 stock CR250R.  I sent him an intake, but other than that and a pipe, stock.  He has not had it ported yet. 

You took a really long way around saying it, but the difference is now and has always been the rider.  You put the winning 250F guys on 2-strokes and they'll win.  All this talk about what gets better traction where doesn't mean anything when it comes down to skills and talent.  The advantage of a 2-stroke in the hands of any rider is simplicity and expense. 

I dunno what happened to Bud's CR but the last several times I've seen him over the past couple months he is back on his 4-stroke. 

[ACMX]

Hahaha.


Anyways... 150ripper has a point. His bike was one of the only modern two strokes available. And he was actively catching 250fs on it. There was no lack of power there... You just have to know how to rip it and be on the right bike. Now if he can do that on the 150, why do you guys think that a bike with 100 more cc's can only do just that? Every 250 class here is dominated by two stroke 250s

[ktm150rippa]

must sound nice up there acmx, around here we have some fast guys on 2 strokes but its mostly farts with rev limiters. I could barely watch best whip the other night. Is that not the most obnoxious sound ever(four $trokes on rev limiter)?

[ACMX]

Oh I know it was too annoying listening to that.

[TMKIWI]

You took a really long way around saying it, but the difference is now and has always been the rider.  You put the winning 250F guys on 2-strokes and they'll win.

Correct.

Anyways... 150ripper has a point. His bike was one of the only modern two strokes available.
 

I think TotalNZ might disagree with you on that.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

I had a conversation this weekend with a 450F rider. He was trying to trade his '96 125 for one of my Vintage bikes and as usual, I was preaching the advantages of the 2T. I brought up the costs, and he countered that the 450F has been dead reliable, no more expensive to maintain and makes more horsepower. He conceded that the 250F was a hand grenade with the pin pulled but the 450F was different. I took the bit and jumped on the horsepower comment but he had his facts, quoting the HP figures for the YZ250 and the CRF450F.

There I paused.

Was it totally acceptable that the 4$ was 85% bigger but only 7 more HP (or something like that)? I can accept the idea that as a racer, you want the best tool for the job and with today's rules, that means a 4$ MX'er. But what struck me as amazing was that there was never a consideration for equality. It never crossed his mind to compare a 450F with an open class 2T or a 250F with a 250 2T. He looked at me like I just told him to try square wheels.

I think we take for granted that the "delusional" 4$ riders recognize the 85% difference in the open class and the 100% difference in the lights class but I am coming to believe they do not. This very knowledgeable and experienced rider doesn't care about what's right or wrong, only what works. In the open class, you can ride a 450F or a 250 2T. He doesn't consider anything else just like we wouldn't consider racing a KLR300, a TS185, or any other "street bike with ground clearance".

We might be the "delusional" ones by thinking about what is RIGHT rather than what IS.

[factoryX]

They should have never mixed both motors into the same class.  An 03 and up yz250 standard bore is 66.4mm, while a 2011 yz250f standard bore is 77mm (A 78mm piston is about enough for a 370cc big bore kit for the YZ250 ). Again with a different bike, the standard bore size for a 2001 cr500 is 89mm, while a 2011 crf450r standard bore is 96mm. So larger piston, smaller stroke, and you get a bike that will rev to 14k rpm.
Here is a good read, indulge yourselves:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmodromic_valve