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Offline Skidmark

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« on: June 11, 2012, 04:07:43 AM »
I've been riding motorcycles for 33 years. I just started "racing" 2 years ago. I started on a 02 RM250....and I fought that bike EVERY race. It tried to kill me repeatedly!

So I bought a KTM250F...WOW what a difference, I went from back of pack to top 3 finisher.....but I friggin HATE 4-strokes....

So after 1.5 years on the thumper I jumped back to a 02 CR250R.....and went right back to the back of the pack...candlesticking damn near every jump and I feel like I went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!

WTH am I doing wrong????   Same track...same times....same class (age group). Thing scares the crap out of me because the power hits so hard and out of nowhere!

Stock bike...FMF Fatty pipe.

HELP !!!!!

Skidmark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline twosmoke595

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 04:21:44 AM »
well one thing that is cheap and a easy fix on the lightswitch power delivery of 2 strokes is a heavier flywheel, my dad was in the same boat as you, he loves how easy the 4 strokes are to ride, but we cannot financially support the costs of 4 strokes. He had a 450, sold it, 2 weeks later it blew up and needed 1800 in parts, he bought a yz250, and coudln't ride it, he was all over the place, blowing berms overjumping stuff, he's been on a big 4 stroke for about 8 years before the yz250 so he had to re-learn how to ride. We put the biggest flywheel that stealthy makes for it which is a 13oz and he loves the yz250 now, it has the same power of a regular yz250 its just smoother and way easier to ride, it was i think 119.99, and it takes 5 minutes to install. Tames the hit way down and makes it very tractable while still having the hit if you want it with a flick of the clutch and the crack of the throttle. Best investment he said he's ever made, and he said he will never ride a 4 stroke mx bike again because he says the yz is perfect.

Don't feel bad man, they're not the easiest bikes to ride, which is why most people like 4 strokes over 2 strokes, but a 2 strokes power delivery is easy to change and relatively cheap, they each have a very different riding style, you have to be more aggressive on a 2 stroke and you have to be on your toes the entire time or it will bite you, more braking, more accelerating, it will skate around more and won't feel as planted. The flywheel kind of slows everything down, it makes it feel more planted because you're accelerating without as much wheelspin but it still will move around a little more than a 4 stroke just because of the weight difference and having more power than a 250f

try and find somebody in your area with a ktm trail 2 stroke, like a 250exc or 300 exc, they're smooth and tractable like a 4 stroke with plenty of power, this will give you an idea of what a flywheel weight can do to your bike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Skidmark

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 04:41:39 AM »
I did that on my RM250...it helped...it wasn't HALALEUA amazing...but it helped. I'm thinking of riding it with the RC valve cables disconnected just to see what happens, anyone done this?.....Flywheel weight will be in next purchase.

I might just buy a new 300-XC W KTM for the grunt...and the button..... yup, getting old and lazy!

Skiddy
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline twosmoke595

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 05:15:11 AM »
I did that on my RM250...it helped...it wasn't HALALEUA amazing...but it helped. I'm thinking of riding it with the RC valve cables disconnected just to see what happens, anyone done this?.....Flywheel weight will be in next purchase.

I might just buy a new 300-XC W KTM for the grunt...and the button..... yup, getting old and lazy!

Skiddy

i can't tell you what to do about the powervalve bc i've never disconnected it, and plus doesn't the powervalve help with low throttle openings? if anything it would go the opposite direction you want to go, which is all top end and no grunt.
There are more things you can do to the bike to make it have a smoother torque curve, a gnarly pipe, flywheel, gearing, porting can really make it a tractor that pulls smooth, how old are you if you dont mind me asking? my dad is nearing his 50th this year and he loves his yz.

In your original post you said you hate 4 strokes, can you tell us exactly what you dont like about them?

Many people are in your boat, they like the smooth easy power of a 4 stroke, but dont quite know what to do to a 2 stroke to make it how they like it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline citabjockey

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 05:22:10 AM »
Are stiffer reeds a ticket to smoother power delivery? What about a smaller carb? Retard the timing a bit?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
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Offline Super Trucker

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 05:45:05 AM »
If you disconnect the pv cable, you will kill the low end power and ruin the pv. Like 595 said  buy a fly wheel weight, 1 less tooth on the rear sproket-will soften the hit. A rad valve will give you a low to mid boost, are your reeds wore out. The fmf pipe prob. has a harder hit than the stock pipe. Don,t buy a 05-07 cr250 it hits much harder than a 02.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Skidmark

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 06:39:52 AM »
OK, I don't HATE four strokes.... I have a Yosh built DRZ450 that runs like a raped ape and is uber-reliable....but I PREFER the two-stroke (I have a RD400F Daytona Special and a GT550 triple cafe project bike as well).
I was under the impression (without looking at a manual) that the RC valve OPENED the port which would increase power...similar to RZ350/Banshee valves.
Bike has very low hours on it...believe it or not the stock tires from 2002 were still on the bike and still very ridable so I don't think there is anything wrong reed wise.....though they may have stiffened with age.
I don't think timing is adjustable...
I'm a ripe ol' 43 years of age. I mostly cut my gums riding in the deserts of so.cal. LOVED the wide open, ride where you want access. Now in Hawaii, I can ride trials (not trails) in the woods, dual sport trails on the mountain or on this here MX track. I know it's just a matter of practice and mechanical installation of "softening" goodies.  I'll get used to it.... or another bike.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Stusmoke

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 07:40:41 AM »
First off: The quarter litre two stroke motocross bike is a weapon, NOT for the faint hearted.

For my transition from the fooper (05 CRF250R) to my 01 YZ250, it was an instantaneous relief. It was quite the opposite for me, it really suited my loose riding style.

Best advice I can give you is pretty much REVERSE your riding style. What do I mean by this? Steer from the back of the bike. I know this is a confusing concept and its kinda hard to explain. But what I do is I've modified my attack position. On a fooper, obviously the power comes on slower, so popping the front wheel out of a corner is less of a danger. If traction is good and you've got a solid line, You'd wanna be sitting as far forward as you can. Why is this relevant I hear you asking... I'm getting there. Steering from the rear: the easiest way I can describe this is use a combination of throttle and pushing into the corner. For example: Sticky sweeping berm. I lean over a little earlier and give the throttle a little crack  to really slam the tires into the bottom of the corner. Thats what I mean by steering from the back, for me its sort of using a combination of throttle and leaning and I often slide the back wheel into where its most useful. As opposed to a four stroke where you can't really do that effectively, its more in need of guidance.

ATTACK THOSE CORNERS: First thing to note is the lack of engine braking. Accelerate until you need to brake. I have good traction where I am so I usually just clutch and lock the rear. This also teaches you good control and adds some fun  :P Get angry at the track, this thing has stolen your girlfriend, be aggressive but only if your traction is good.

Thats honestly the best I can do, it might have helped it might not have. Sorry if it didn't and you're welcome if it did. But I hope it did. This is how I ride and it works well, I'm never fighting my bike its got the same mindset as me: destroy them all
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline TotalNZ

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 07:45:14 AM »
Welcome to the real world. Just about everyone is faster on a 4stroke, they're great bikes.
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Stusmoke

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2012, 08:15:02 AM »
Welcome to the real world. Just about everyone is faster on a 4stroke, they're great bikes.
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.

Heavy, mindbogglingly expensive, so loud they force tracks out of business, you can't do the engine work yourself, they handle like a wild boar that just got shot with a .22 long rat shot, slower, too easy to ride it makes the sport boring. Have I missed something? Those new foopers are so super I can't wait for the 2013 models.

I'm just messing mate, they have their advantages. Growing a belly is one of em :P

Skidmark you're allowed to pit a 48 (at minimum) horsepower motorcycle against a maximum of 45 horsepower motorcycles while keeping your costs down and the fun factor maximised. Why in the name of god would you go back to a fooper? If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level. Skill only goes so far. Ride you're bike gently, get used to its rhythms because they WILL be different. Master that and the podiums yours
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline TotalNZ

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2012, 08:27:12 AM »
Welcome to the real world. Just about everyone is faster on a 4stroke, they're great bikes.
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.

Heavy, mindbogglingly expensive, so loud they force tracks out of business, you can't do the engine work yourself, they handle like a wild boar that just got shot with a .22 long rat shot, slower, too easy to ride it makes the sport boring. Have I missed something? Those new foopers are so super I can't wait for the 2013 models.

I'm just messing mate, they have their advantages. Growing a belly is one of em :P

Skidmark you're allowed to pit a 48 (at minimum) horsepower motorcycle against a maximum of 45 horsepower motorcycles while keeping your costs down and the fun factor maximised. Why in the name of god would you go back to a fooper? If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level. Skill only goes so far. Ride you're bike gently, get used to its rhythms because they WILL be different. Master that and the podiums yours
Some of you guys overestimate the 250 2t vs the 250f's. You can use alot more of that 45 hp more of the time than the 2t's 48 and then when that 48 does come on the pipe you get arm stretching and traction issues.
Here in NZ we run 2t vs 4t 250's and i'm telling you the only guy's on 2t's are riding them for the love of the motor and it's style because as much as alot of you would hate to admit it, the 2t's power delivery is taxing and after first few laps is a handicap over the 250f's.
Just look at the ama lap times or watch the NZ champ vid posted by TMkiwi.
Now i know how i sound but i'm 2t through and through, i'm just keeping it real.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Stusmoke

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2012, 08:45:55 AM »
Welcome to the real world. Just about everyone is faster on a 4stroke, they're great bikes.
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.

Heavy, mindbogglingly expensive, so loud they force tracks out of business, you can't do the engine work yourself, they handle like a wild boar that just got shot with a .22 long rat shot, slower, too easy to ride it makes the sport boring. Have I missed something? Those new foopers are so super I can't wait for the 2013 models.

I'm just messing mate, they have their advantages. Growing a belly is one of em :P

Skidmark you're allowed to pit a 48 (at minimum) horsepower motorcycle against a maximum of 45 horsepower motorcycles while keeping your costs down and the fun factor maximised. Why in the name of god would you go back to a fooper? If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level. Skill only goes so far. Ride you're bike gently, get used to its rhythms because they WILL be different. Master that and the podiums yours
Some of you guys overestimate the 250 2t vs the 250f's. You can use alot more of that 45 hp more of the time than the 2t's 48 and then when that 48 does come on the pipe you get arm stretching and traction issues.
Here in NZ we run 2t vs 4t 250's and i'm telling you the only guy's on 2t's are riding them for the love of the motor and it's style because as much as alot of you would hate to admit it, the 2t's power delivery is taxing and after first few laps is a handicap over the 250f's.
Just look at the ama lap times or watch the NZ champ vid posted by TMkiwi.
Now i know how i sound but i'm 2t through and through, i'm just keeping it real.

You're quite correct. Just cos I don't like four strokes doesn't mean I ignore the facts: a four stroke engine is ten fold easier to ride.
The original purpose and design of a two stroke motor was for one thing: Speed
And I mean speed in a couple of different aspects such as power to weight ratio and just plain horsepower. Its easier to squeeze horsepower out of a two stroke engine. Thats it. Straight up fact.

With that perk comes aggressive power delivery and, while its more fun, also alot more taxing. TotalNZ you'd be an idiot if you didn't say a four stroke was easier to ride. But theres one thing that I did say that wasn't taken into account: Putting in the hours.

I don't just mean on the track, I mean in the gym too. But at the end of a race/practice day, you get to go home, crack a stubbie and say: I love real motocross.

Bottom line: If you want to ride that CR competitively, you will need to put in hours both on the track and in the gym, although in my current state an mx track feels like one brutal gym... But the rewards my friend.... Chief amoung them is seeing the look on a four jokers face when you blow past him on the inside line on your screamin demon. I promise you will get better as you almost subconsciously adapt to the "looser" riding style of a two stroke.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline chump6784

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 09:46:32 AM »
It sounds to me like you are riding the 2 stroke like the 4 stroke. you gotta ride a 250f like a 125 to get the most out of it. by that i mean wide open, bouncing off the rev limiter. when i was getting used to my 250 i often exited corners a gear high so it was off the pipe and then roll the power on so it would build into the meat. i still use this sometimes if the track is slick or hard packed. after a while i got used to the hit of a 250 and now i couldn't imagine riding a 4 stroke.

i always rode 2 strokes and raced 125's for a while but then had 10 years off riding. when i came back it was on a 250 2 stroke and it did take a little while to not only get back into the swing of riding but also used to the extra power i had never used before.

as the old saying goes, sometimes you have to go slow to go fast
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline TMKIWI

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 10:40:49 AM »
If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level.

Complete bullcrap Stu. Some of you guys will not listen. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley">
A race prepared 250F can run with a race prepared 250 smoker.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
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Offline Stusmoke

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I must be a TOTAL PUSSY! Aaargh !!
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2012, 11:32:40 AM »
Huh thats weird... could've sworn I posted this...

It sounds to me like you are riding the 2 stroke like the 4 stroke. you gotta ride a 250f like a 125 to get the most out of it. by that i mean wide open, bouncing off the rev limiter. when i was getting used to my 250 i often exited corners a gear high so it was off the pipe and then roll the power on so it would build into the meat. i still use this sometimes if the track is slick or hard packed. after a while i got used to the hit of a 250 and now i couldn't imagine riding a 4 stroke.

i always rode 2 strokes and raced 125's for a while but then had 10 years off riding. when i came back it was on a 250 2 stroke and it did take a little while to not only get back into the swing of riding but also used to the extra power i had never used before.

as the old saying goes, sometimes you have to go slow to go fast

I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or not so I'll cover it just in case you are. My bike is very mid range and top end. By that I mean the midrange is very aggressive and the top end feels outright explosive. I ride it in the midrange to increase engine life as long as possible.

If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level.

Complete bullcrap Stu. Some of you guys will not listen. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley">
A race prepared 250F can run with a race prepared 250 smoker.

Wow you just don't read do you? You've made a fool of yourself in two ways here: 1.) I said atleast twice IF YOU PUT THE HOURS IN! That means in the gym and on the track. So you're fitness is at peak. and 2.) You've said a race prepped 250F can run with a race prepped 250 smoker. I also agreed with that in the above posts due to factors based on ease of riding. I actually said that the 250F couldn't BEAT it. And in identical and ideal conditions, it cant.

If a mans fitness is at peak and he rides a 250 smoker well against a guy who is also very fit and rides a 250F at roughly the same skill levels on the same track on the same day and traction is good, I'll tell you right here and now the 250F WILL LOOSE. Quit just attacking my posts and being a provocative prick. Disagree sure just do it in an orderly manner its really not a difficult concept mate
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »