Post by: Skidmark on June 11, 2012, 04:07:43 AM
So I bought a KTM250F...WOW what a difference, I went from back of pack to top 3 finisher.....but I friggin HATE 4-strokes....
So after 1.5 years on the thumper I jumped back to a 02 CR250R.....and went right back to the back of the pack...candlesticking damn near every jump and I feel like I went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!
WTH am I doing wrong?
Same track...same times....same class (age group). Thing scares the crap out of me because the power hits so hard and out of nowhere!Stock bike...FMF Fatty pipe.
HELP !!!!!
Skidmark
Post by: twosmoke595 on June 11, 2012, 04:21:44 AM
Don't feel bad man, they're not the easiest bikes to ride, which is why most people like 4 strokes over 2 strokes, but a 2 strokes power delivery is easy to change and relatively cheap, they each have a very different riding style, you have to be more aggressive on a 2 stroke and you have to be on your toes the entire time or it will bite you, more braking, more accelerating, it will skate around more and won't feel as planted. The flywheel kind of slows everything down, it makes it feel more planted because you're accelerating without as much wheelspin but it still will move around a little more than a 4 stroke just because of the weight difference and having more power than a 250f
try and find somebody in your area with a ktm trail 2 stroke, like a 250exc or 300 exc, they're smooth and tractable like a 4 stroke with plenty of power, this will give you an idea of what a flywheel weight can do to your bike
Post by: Skidmark on June 11, 2012, 04:41:39 AM
I might just buy a new 300-XC W KTM for the grunt...and the button..... yup, getting old and lazy!
Skiddy
Post by: twosmoke595 on June 11, 2012, 05:15:11 AM
I did that on my RM250...it helped...it wasn't HALALEUA amazing...but it helped. I'm thinking of riding it with the RC valve cables disconnected just to see what happens, anyone done this?.....Flywheel weight will be in next purchase.
I might just buy a new 300-XC W KTM for the grunt...and the button..... yup, getting old and lazy!
Skiddy
i can't tell you what to do about the powervalve bc i've never disconnected it, and plus doesn't the powervalve help with low throttle openings? if anything it would go the opposite direction you want to go, which is all top end and no grunt.
There are more things you can do to the bike to make it have a smoother torque curve, a gnarly pipe, flywheel, gearing, porting can really make it a tractor that pulls smooth, how old are you if you dont mind me asking? my dad is nearing his 50th this year and he loves his yz.
In your original post you said you hate 4 strokes, can you tell us exactly what you dont like about them?
Many people are in your boat, they like the smooth easy power of a 4 stroke, but dont quite know what to do to a 2 stroke to make it how they like it.
Post by: citabjockey on June 11, 2012, 05:22:10 AM
Post by: Super Trucker on June 11, 2012, 05:45:05 AM
Post by: Skidmark on June 11, 2012, 06:39:52 AM
I was under the impression (without looking at a manual) that the RC valve OPENED the port which would increase power...similar to RZ350/Banshee valves.
Bike has very low hours on it...believe it or not the stock tires from 2002 were still on the bike and still very ridable so I don't think there is anything wrong reed wise.....though they may have stiffened with age.
I don't think timing is adjustable...
I'm a ripe ol' 43 years of age. I mostly cut my gums riding in the deserts of so.cal. LOVED the wide open, ride where you want access. Now in Hawaii, I can ride trials (not trails) in the woods, dual sport trails on the mountain or on this here MX track. I know it's just a matter of practice and mechanical installation of "softening" goodies. I'll get used to it.... or another bike.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 11, 2012, 07:40:41 AM
For my transition from the fooper (05 CRF250R) to my 01 YZ250, it was an instantaneous relief. It was quite the opposite for me, it really suited my loose riding style.
Best advice I can give you is pretty much REVERSE your riding style. What do I mean by this? Steer from the back of the bike. I know this is a confusing concept and its kinda hard to explain. But what I do is I've modified my attack position. On a fooper, obviously the power comes on slower, so popping the front wheel out of a corner is less of a danger. If traction is good and you've got a solid line, You'd wanna be sitting as far forward as you can. Why is this relevant I hear you asking... I'm getting there. Steering from the rear: the easiest way I can describe this is use a combination of throttle and pushing into the corner. For example: Sticky sweeping berm. I lean over a little earlier and give the throttle a little crack to really slam the tires into the bottom of the corner. Thats what I mean by steering from the back, for me its sort of using a combination of throttle and leaning and I often slide the back wheel into where its most useful. As opposed to a four stroke where you can't really do that effectively, its more in need of guidance.
ATTACK THOSE CORNERS: First thing to note is the lack of engine braking. Accelerate until you need to brake. I have good traction where I am so I usually just clutch and lock the rear. This also teaches you good control and adds some fun
Get angry at the track, this thing has stolen your girlfriend, be aggressive but only if your traction is good.Thats honestly the best I can do, it might have helped it might not have. Sorry if it didn't and you're welcome if it did. But I hope it did. This is how I ride and it works well, I'm never fighting my bike its got the same mindset as me: destroy them all
Post by: TotalNZ on June 11, 2012, 07:45:14 AM
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 11, 2012, 08:15:02 AM
Welcome to the real world. Just about everyone is faster on a 4stroke, they're great bikes.
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.
Heavy, mindbogglingly expensive, so loud they force tracks out of business, you can't do the engine work yourself, they handle like a wild boar that just got shot with a .22 long rat shot, slower, too easy to ride it makes the sport boring. Have I missed something? Those new foopers are so super I can't wait for the 2013 models.
I'm just messing mate, they have their advantages. Growing a belly is one of em
Skidmark you're allowed to pit a 48 (at minimum) horsepower motorcycle against a maximum of 45 horsepower motorcycles while keeping your costs down and the fun factor maximised. Why in the name of god would you go back to a fooper? If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level. Skill only goes so far. Ride you're bike gently, get used to its rhythms because they WILL be different. Master that and the podiums yours
Post by: TotalNZ on June 11, 2012, 08:27:12 AM
Some of you guys overestimate the 250 2t vs the 250f's. You can use alot more of that 45 hp more of the time than the 2t's 48 and then when that 48 does come on the pipe you get arm stretching and traction issues.Welcome to the real world. Just about everyone is faster on a 4stroke, they're great bikes.
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.
Heavy, mindbogglingly expensive, so loud they force tracks out of business, you can't do the engine work yourself, they handle like a wild boar that just got shot with a .22 long rat shot, slower, too easy to ride it makes the sport boring. Have I missed something? Those new foopers are so super I can't wait for the 2013 models.
I'm just messing mate, they have their advantages. Growing a belly is one of em
Skidmark you're allowed to pit a 48 (at minimum) horsepower motorcycle against a maximum of 45 horsepower motorcycles while keeping your costs down and the fun factor maximised. Why in the name of god would you go back to a fooper? If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level. Skill only goes so far. Ride you're bike gently, get used to its rhythms because they WILL be different. Master that and the podiums yours
Here in NZ we run 2t vs 4t 250's and i'm telling you the only guy's on 2t's are riding them for the love of the motor and it's style because as much as alot of you would hate to admit it, the 2t's power delivery is taxing and after first few laps is a handicap over the 250f's.
Just look at the ama lap times or watch the NZ champ vid posted by TMkiwi.
Now i know how i sound but i'm 2t through and through, i'm just keeping it real.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 11, 2012, 08:45:55 AM
Some of you guys overestimate the 250 2t vs the 250f's. You can use alot more of that 45 hp more of the time than the 2t's 48 and then when that 48 does come on the pipe you get arm stretching and traction issues.Welcome to the real world. Just about everyone is faster on a 4stroke, they're great bikes.
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.
Heavy, mindbogglingly expensive, so loud they force tracks out of business, you can't do the engine work yourself, they handle like a wild boar that just got shot with a .22 long rat shot, slower, too easy to ride it makes the sport boring. Have I missed something? Those new foopers are so super I can't wait for the 2013 models.
I'm just messing mate, they have their advantages. Growing a belly is one of em
Skidmark you're allowed to pit a 48 (at minimum) horsepower motorcycle against a maximum of 45 horsepower motorcycles while keeping your costs down and the fun factor maximised. Why in the name of god would you go back to a fooper? If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level. Skill only goes so far. Ride you're bike gently, get used to its rhythms because they WILL be different. Master that and the podiums yours
Here in NZ we run 2t vs 4t 250's and i'm telling you the only guy's on 2t's are riding them for the love of the motor and it's style because as much as alot of you would hate to admit it, the 2t's power delivery is taxing and after first few laps is a handicap over the 250f's.
Just look at the ama lap times or watch the NZ champ vid posted by TMkiwi.
Now i know how i sound but i'm 2t through and through, i'm just keeping it real.
You're quite correct. Just cos I don't like four strokes doesn't mean I ignore the facts: a four stroke engine is ten fold easier to ride.
The original purpose and design of a two stroke motor was for one thing: Speed
And I mean speed in a couple of different aspects such as power to weight ratio and just plain horsepower. Its easier to squeeze horsepower out of a two stroke engine. Thats it. Straight up fact.
With that perk comes aggressive power delivery and, while its more fun, also alot more taxing. TotalNZ you'd be an idiot if you didn't say a four stroke was easier to ride. But theres one thing that I did say that wasn't taken into account: Putting in the hours.
I don't just mean on the track, I mean in the gym too. But at the end of a race/practice day, you get to go home, crack a stubbie and say: I love real motocross.
Bottom line: If you want to ride that CR competitively, you will need to put in hours both on the track and in the gym, although in my current state an mx track feels like one brutal gym... But the rewards my friend.... Chief amoung them is seeing the look on a four jokers face when you blow past him on the inside line on your screamin demon. I promise you will get better as you almost subconsciously adapt to the "looser" riding style of a two stroke.
Post by: chump6784 on June 11, 2012, 09:46:32 AM
i always rode 2 strokes and raced 125's for a while but then had 10 years off riding. when i came back it was on a 250 2 stroke and it did take a little while to not only get back into the swing of riding but also used to the extra power i had never used before.
as the old saying goes, sometimes you have to go slow to go fast
Post by: TMKIWI on June 11, 2012, 10:40:49 AM
If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level.
Complete bullcrap Stu. Some of you guys will not listen.
A race prepared 250F can run with a race prepared 250 smoker.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 11, 2012, 11:32:40 AM
It sounds to me like you are riding the 2 stroke like the 4 stroke. you gotta ride a 250f like a 125 to get the most out of it. by that i mean wide open, bouncing off the rev limiter. when i was getting used to my 250 i often exited corners a gear high so it was off the pipe and then roll the power on so it would build into the meat. i still use this sometimes if the track is slick or hard packed. after a while i got used to the hit of a 250 and now i couldn't imagine riding a 4 stroke.
i always rode 2 strokes and raced 125's for a while but then had 10 years off riding. when i came back it was on a 250 2 stroke and it did take a little while to not only get back into the swing of riding but also used to the extra power i had never used before.
as the old saying goes, sometimes you have to go slow to go fast
I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or not so I'll cover it just in case you are. My bike is very mid range and top end. By that I mean the midrange is very aggressive and the top end feels outright explosive. I ride it in the midrange to increase engine life as long as possible.
If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level.
Complete bullcrap Stu. Some of you guys will not listen.
A race prepared 250F can run with a race prepared 250 smoker.
Wow you just don't read do you? You've made a fool of yourself in two ways here: 1.) I said atleast twice IF YOU PUT THE HOURS IN! That means in the gym and on the track. So you're fitness is at peak. and 2.) You've said a race prepped 250F can run with a race prepped 250 smoker. I also agreed with that in the above posts due to factors based on ease of riding. I actually said that the 250F couldn't BEAT it. And in identical and ideal conditions, it cant.
If a mans fitness is at peak and he rides a 250 smoker well against a guy who is also very fit and rides a 250F at roughly the same skill levels on the same track on the same day and traction is good, I'll tell you right here and now the 250F WILL LOOSE. Quit just attacking my posts and being a provocative prick. Disagree sure just do it in an orderly manner its really not a difficult concept mate
Post by: SachsGS on June 11, 2012, 03:21:47 PM
Post by: tweetakt on June 11, 2012, 04:40:13 PM
I've been riding motorcycles for 33 years. I just started "racing" 2 years ago. I started on a 02 RM250....and I fought that bike EVERY race. It tried to kill me repeatedly!
So I bought a KTM250F...WOW what a difference, I went from back of pack to top 3 finisher.....but I friggin HATE 4-strokes....
So after 1.5 years on the thumper I jumped back to a 02 CR250R.....and went right back to the back of the pack...candlesticking damn near every jump and I feel like I went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!
WTH am I doing wrong?
Stock bike...FMF Fatty pipe.
HELP !!!!!
Skidmark
You could always re-gear by taking a tooth off the back to mellow it down a bit. Also, your suspension is old and probably worn. It'd fix suspension; you'd be shocked at what a difference it can make.
Don't fear the power. It's your friend.
Post by: snook620 on June 11, 2012, 05:40:46 PM
Welcome to the real world. Just about everyone is faster on a 4stroke, they're great bikes.
If winning races is your sole goal, and you don't have the time to practice and aren't super bike fit with fair bit of natural skill then stick with your 250f.
There are countless reasons i'd never buy or race a 4banger but i've ridden enough new ones to know how good they are.
Hit the nail on the head. For strokes are good for one thing, racing.
I tried to go back to racing a 250 2 stroke after a couple years on a 450 and had a simillar experience. Im sure in time I could have relearned to ride the smoker but why? It was FAST, skechy, dangerous and flat wore me out. Now that I mostly play ride, Im looking for another 250 2t.
edit: damn I cant type today
Post by: chump6784 on June 11, 2012, 08:00:03 PM
Huh thats weird... could've sworn I posted this...Nope i was referring to the OP, not everything is about youIt sounds to me like you are riding the 2 stroke like the 4 stroke. you gotta ride a 250f like a 125 to get the most out of it. by that i mean wide open, bouncing off the rev limiter. when i was getting used to my 250 i often exited corners a gear high so it was off the pipe and then roll the power on so it would build into the meat. i still use this sometimes if the track is slick or hard packed. after a while i got used to the hit of a 250 and now i couldn't imagine riding a 4 stroke.
i always rode 2 strokes and raced 125's for a while but then had 10 years off riding. when i came back it was on a 250 2 stroke and it did take a little while to not only get back into the swing of riding but also used to the extra power i had never used before.
as the old saying goes, sometimes you have to go slow to go fast
I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or not so I'll cover it just in case you are. My bike is very mid range and top end. By that I mean the midrange is very aggressive and the top end feels outright explosive. I ride it in the midrange to increase engine life as long as possible.
Post by: Dirtsaw on June 11, 2012, 11:41:26 PM
I've ridden many a 450 in the woods and I absolutely can't stand them. I'm slower then shit on them and they turn like a friggin tank. Ride your 250 a gear higher in the corners. Drag your rear brake to the apex of the turn then start rolling on the throttle until you are wide open at the exit and you'll have no more problems. Throttle control is the problem here, not the bike.
Post by: ford832 on June 12, 2012, 01:17:35 AM
I've been riding motorcycles for 33 years. I just started "racing" 2 years ago. I started on a 02 RM250....and I fought that bike EVERY race. It tried to kill me repeatedly!
So I bought a KTM250F...WOW what a difference, I went from back of pack to top 3 finisher.....but I friggin HATE 4-strokes....
So after 1.5 years on the thumper I jumped back to a 02 CR250R.....and went right back to the back of the pack...candlesticking damn near every jump and I feel like I went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!
WTH am I doing wrong?
Stock bike...FMF Fatty pipe.
HELP !!!!!
Skidmark
OMG skidmark,you're such a pussy
Well I guess there's no shame in admitting it.Actually,that's wrong-SHAME!SHAME! 
For me,I like the 2t's,and I loved the power of my 550 Berg.That said,I can do my fastest lap times on friends 250f's that I am not used to riding.If I was racing mx competitively,that's what I'd have.
Why try to change a 250 2t into a 250 4t? If you're fastest on a 250f,race that-there's no point in getting poor results or getting frustrated unnecessarily. If you have the $$,buy a used 2t for fun days-or wait until your race days mostly turn into fun ride days to buy a 2t.
Post by: twosmoke595 on June 12, 2012, 01:29:26 AM
Post by: citabjockey on June 12, 2012, 01:44:20 AM
So if the suspension is up to snuff, the motor hit can be brought into line a bit and with some more practice maybe the results would get better. I still have a tough time picturing switching to a well setup 250 2T would take you from the podium positions to darn near last place. There sure seems like there may be something wrong with that bike? Of course it seems like you have 2 sample points, the CR250 and the RM250 with similar results. Maybe you are just more comfy on a KTM? Anyway for you to sample a KTM250SX?
MXA's shootout between the 250 and 250F from some time back seems to say that the fastest and the slowest lap times were on the 2T. More skill required and more of a penalty for making mistakes but there is an advantage when you can put all that horsepower to the ground and when you can take an inside line the 4T cannot. That said all the lap times were effectively inseparable between the two bikes for their test riders of all levels. Seems like this flies in the face if your experience too. It just should not be THAT bad.
Post by: scotty dog on June 12, 2012, 01:49:57 AM
I've been riding motorcycles for 33 years. I just started "racing" 2 years ago. I started on a 02 RM250....and I fought that bike EVERY race. It tried to kill me repeatedly!Maybe its a throttle control issue skidmark? I think some one has mentioned it already, riding a 250 smoker like a 250 f like you might be will be hard and will be scary, maybe a couple of cheap little mods like others have mentioned like the flywheel weight and smaller sprocket maybe and practice practice practice, work on the throttle control listen to the engine, keep it in the meat of the powerband and use momentum, hope ya sort it out, happy smokin
So I bought a KTM250F...WOW what a difference, I went from back of pack to top 3 finisher.....but I friggin HATE 4-strokes....
So after 1.5 years on the thumper I jumped back to a 02 CR250R.....and went right back to the back of the pack...candlesticking damn near every jump and I feel like I went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson!
WTH am I doing wrong?
Stock bike...FMF Fatty pipe.
HELP !!!!!
Skidmark
Post by: TotalNZ on June 13, 2012, 07:04:15 AM
Huh thats weird... could've sworn I posted this...]Sorry gonna have to disagree there, I believe that if the same rider rode 5 laps of the same track on the same day on each of the race prepped bikes, the 250f is still gonna be easier to ride therefore faster. It's the nature of the power delivery that makes the 2t both fun and a challenge and there's no point trying to change it.It sounds to me like you are riding the 2 stroke like the 4 stroke. you gotta ride a 250f like a 125 to get the most out of it. by that i mean wide open, bouncing off the rev limiter. when i was getting used to my 250 i often exited corners a gear high so it was off the pipe and then roll the power on so it would build into the meat. i still use this sometimes if the track is slick or hard packed. after a while i got used to the hit of a 250 and now i couldn't imagine riding a 4 stroke.
i always rode 2 strokes and raced 125's for a while but then had 10 years off riding. when i came back it was on a 250 2 stroke and it did take a little while to not only get back into the swing of riding but also used to the extra power i had never used before.
as the old saying goes, sometimes you have to go slow to go fast
I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or not so I'll cover it just in case you are. My bike is very mid range and top end. By that I mean the midrange is very aggressive and the top end feels outright explosive. I ride it in the midrange to increase engine life as long as possible.If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level.
Complete bullcrap Stu. Some of you guys will not listen.
A race prepared 250F can run with a race prepared 250 smoker.
Wow you just don't read do you? You've made a fool of yourself in two ways here: 1.) I said atleast twice IF YOU PUT THE HOURS IN! That means in the gym and on the track. So you're fitness is at peak. and 2.) You've said a race prepped 250F can run with a race prepped 250 smoker. I also agreed with that in the above posts due to factors based on ease of riding. I actually said that the 250F couldn't BEAT it. And in identical and ideal conditions, it cant.
If a mans fitness is at peak and he rides a 250 smoker well against a guy who is also very fit and rides a 250F at roughly the same skill levels on the same track on the same day and traction is good, I'll tell you right here and now the 250F WILL LOOSE. Quit just attacking my posts and being a provocative prick. Disagree sure just do it in an orderly manner its really not a difficult concept mate
To touch on your point about training, lets say you hit the gym hard practiced on your own track everynight and got super fast enough to start beating 250f's then i reckon you'd be a step faster again on a 250f yopurself.
It's all good putting in that 1 or 2 scorching laps on the 2t but to win races you've gotta do it lap after lap for 20 or 30 mins, enter the 250f.
Post by: TotalNZ on June 13, 2012, 07:07:16 AM
Someone earlier posted that a 250f has 45 HP? When did this happen? Maybe a pro circuit pro bike with an expected engine life of 5 hours. Aren't stock 250f's more like 35 HP?Yeah the 4strokes are pigs on the single trail, thats one area where the 2t leaves them for dead.
I've ridden many a 450 in the woods and I absolutely can't stand them. I'm slower then shit on them and they turn like a friggin tank. Ride your 250 a gear higher in the corners. Drag your rear brake to the apex of the turn then start rolling on the throttle until you are wide open at the exit and you'll have no more problems. Throttle control is the problem here, not the bike.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 13, 2012, 07:43:10 AM
Huh thats weird... could've sworn I posted this...Nope i was referring to the OP, not everything is about youIt sounds to me like you are riding the 2 stroke like the 4 stroke. you gotta ride a 250f like a 125 to get the most out of it. by that i mean wide open, bouncing off the rev limiter. when i was getting used to my 250 i often exited corners a gear high so it was off the pipe and then roll the power on so it would build into the meat. i still use this sometimes if the track is slick or hard packed. after a while i got used to the hit of a 250 and now i couldn't imagine riding a 4 stroke.
i always rode 2 strokes and raced 125's for a while but then had 10 years off riding. when i came back it was on a 250 2 stroke and it did take a little while to not only get back into the swing of riding but also used to the extra power i had never used before.
as the old saying goes, sometimes you have to go slow to go fast
I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or not so I'll cover it just in case you are. My bike is very mid range and top end. By that I mean the midrange is very aggressive and the top end feels outright explosive. I ride it in the midrange to increase engine life as long as possible.
Perhaps you should consider using the quote function then eh? Not everyones as psychic as you
I'd like to draw peoples attention to NZ's reply:
Huh thats weird... could've sworn I posted this...]Sorry gonna have to disagree there, I believe that if the same rider rode 5 laps of the same track on the same day on each of the race prepped bikes, the 250f is still gonna be easier to ride therefore faster. It's the nature of the power delivery that makes the 2t both fun and a challenge and there's no point trying to change it.It sounds to me like you are riding the 2 stroke like the 4 stroke. you gotta ride a 250f like a 125 to get the most out of it. by that i mean wide open, bouncing off the rev limiter. when i was getting used to my 250 i often exited corners a gear high so it was off the pipe and then roll the power on so it would build into the meat. i still use this sometimes if the track is slick or hard packed. after a while i got used to the hit of a 250 and now i couldn't imagine riding a 4 stroke.
i always rode 2 strokes and raced 125's for a while but then had 10 years off riding. when i came back it was on a 250 2 stroke and it did take a little while to not only get back into the swing of riding but also used to the extra power i had never used before.
as the old saying goes, sometimes you have to go slow to go fast
I'm not sure if you're directing that at me or not so I'll cover it just in case you are. My bike is very mid range and top end. By that I mean the midrange is very aggressive and the top end feels outright explosive. I ride it in the midrange to increase engine life as long as possible.If you put in the hours, no 250F can beat a 250. Not in the same class with roughly the same skill level.
Complete bullcrap Stu. Some of you guys will not listen.
A race prepared 250F can run with a race prepared 250 smoker.
Wow you just don't read do you? You've made a fool of yourself in two ways here: 1.) I said atleast twice IF YOU PUT THE HOURS IN! That means in the gym and on the track. So you're fitness is at peak. and 2.) You've said a race prepped 250F can run with a race prepped 250 smoker. I also agreed with that in the above posts due to factors based on ease of riding. I actually said that the 250F couldn't BEAT it. And in identical and ideal conditions, it cant.
If a mans fitness is at peak and he rides a 250 smoker well against a guy who is also very fit and rides a 250F at roughly the same skill levels on the same track on the same day and traction is good, I'll tell you right here and now the 250F WILL LOOSE. Quit just attacking my posts and being a provocative prick. Disagree sure just do it in an orderly manner its really not a difficult concept mate
To touch on your point about training, lets say you hit the gym hard practiced on your own track everynight and got super fast enough to start beating 250f's then i reckon you'd be a step faster again on a 250f yopurself.
It's all good putting in that 1 or 2 scorching laps on the 2t but to win races you've gotta do it lap after lap for 20 or 30 mins, enter the 250f.
THAT is how you disagree with someone. Not through this method: Thats bullshit or the classic you dont know what you're talking about.
I'll say first up that whether or not you're faster on the 250F or the 250 depends GREATLY on your riding style. 250Fs are very gentle, smooth and have a very different cornering feel. My riding style is very loose so to speak I like to really attack the track. Its hard to explain. Anyway me point is: I'm ten fold faster on my 250 than I ever was on my fooper. No contest. The shaved off weight and where the weight is on the bike allows me to just zoom on it. Its naturally suited to me. My 250F used to go through the corners instead of around them I felt.
Thats my feel on it anyway. I get alot less tired on my two stroke simply because I'm not constantly fighting the bike.
So if anything has a big impact on whether you're faster on a 250F or 250, its riding style. Thats my experience. I'm terribly slow on the four strokes.
alright everybody, take a chill pill, stu go take a cold shower and go watch the sun go down, maybe a nice massage would help as well, i'd like everybody to stop attacking each other right now, whether or not you meant to doesn't matter, also i'd like people to not have such a short fuse, there's no reason why we can't be civil and still DISCUSS not ARGUE about things.I'd like people to stop attacking eachother too, the problem with this plan of attack is people being idiots. Don't agree with something I read guys? Say just that: I disagree.
Saying thats complete bullcrap or something aggressive like that is going to get me fired up. Push me and I'll push back yeah? I'm perfectly happy to debate something with you, and chances are I'll walk away with a different perspective. But if you charge into the debate all guns blazing, don't expect me to take it.
Just to clarify twosmoke, whereever I used the word you, it was more directed at the person reading this message, not actually directed at you personally.
Someone earlier posted that a 250f has 45 HP? When did this happen? Maybe a pro circuit pro bike with an expected engine life of 5 hours. Aren't stock 250f's more like 35 HP?
I've ridden many a 450 in the woods and I absolutely can't stand them. I'm slower then shit on them and they turn like a friggin tank. Ride your 250 a gear higher in the corners. Drag your rear brake to the apex of the turn then start rolling on the throttle until you are wide open at the exit and you'll have no more problems. Throttle control is the problem here, not the bike.
That was me and I was taking into account that it was properly race prepped. Aftermarket exhaust all that bolt on stuff. I think the KX250F made about 41 stock? Don't quote me on that though So thats what I was guessing after all the performance stuff, about 45
Post by: TMKIWI on June 14, 2012, 08:38:28 AM
This site is supoosed to be civil.
And you are the only one calling people names.
Go hang out on Vital.
Post by: Stusmoke on June 14, 2012, 08:51:50 AM
Disagree civilly and I won't bite back. Its not difficult. If you can't interact with me in a moderately decent manner, ignore me outright. Thats the last I'm going to say on this
Post by: TMKIWI on June 14, 2012, 09:32:44 AM
You have called me a , prick, a fool, and a bully in the last 2 days.
All I have done is correct a couple of your posts which were incorrect and you have a go at me.
Have I called you any names ?. No.
So stop annoying the shit out of myself and other people will you.
Post by: TMKIWI on June 14, 2012, 09:46:39 AM
Post by: Stusmoke on June 14, 2012, 09:55:26 AM
Back on topic. Skidmark, first off and this is something I should have made alot clearer alot sooner: You're not a pussy as I believe you put it. Transitioning from a 250F to a 250 is a HUGE change.
If you're serious about finishing high but aren't sweet with the repair bill that comes with a 250F, my advice is to buy a 125. Any experienced rider on here will tell you a 125 is the most phenomenal skill building dirt bike, challenged by the 85 though, granted. I went straight from a 250F to a 250 because I really needed to make my engine last. Which I couldn't do if I was wringing the bikes neck all the time, as fun as that does sound
Now I'm not saying race the 125, not against 250Fs. I'm saying use it on practise days. Alot. And still alot more. After you've done that go out and use it alot more THEN hop back onto your 250. With any luck, you will be hugely better. A 125 is a great bike to get back into riding the 2 strokes with. Who knows you might even have a real connection with a 125 and decide to race it. Either way, it will make you better.Thanks my advice. Good luck mate. Its always inspiring to see a machine ring ding and zing its way over the chequered flag. Damn I really can't spell that word today
Post by: snook620 on June 14, 2012, 07:30:48 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on June 15, 2012, 12:32:10 AM
My opinion - Race what your most confortable on, your decision on a racebike should not be based on rebuild cost. Ride them both and then decide.
Its a good call. As I've said I'm actually faster on two strokes but thats just me. If you're an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction on the 250F and can afford it, go for it. But if you really don't want to go that way and are still serious about motocross, considering riding the 125 for a few months. Even then, if you still want to go back to the 250F, you'll probably be better at it. Not to mention wringing a 125's neck is just pure adrenaline soaked bliss right?
Post by: chump6784 on June 15, 2012, 04:54:27 AM
At the end of the day for me it comes down to 2 things.
1) i wont do any better racing a 250f than i do on my rm. My starts on the RM are good because even with a bad jump off the line i can pull past a heap of guys before the first turn. It is easier to start a race up front and hold your position than start from the back and make up positions
2) the cost and extra maintenance. I spend too much time at work to come home and change oil and filters and check valve clearances every few hours in my limited spare time. 25 hours between ring changes and 50 hours between pistons and oil changes every 10 and that is it. Sure there are the other things that are the same on both bikes like chain tension, spokes etc but engine maintenance and cost goes to the 2 stroke. It also ties in with the first point too, why would i spend the extra time and money on a bike that wont improve my racing.
also after reading Jody Weisel's story on building his race ready YZ 250 it just makes sense to be on a 2 stroke. Nicely ported and flywheel weight, i would love to ride that bike to see what it is like. I have had bikes in the past when i was just starting to race ported for a more even power spread. It made them much nicer and easier to ride. The 250 can sort of get around that with the extra power off the bottom that you can lug but it can only improve it
Post by: Stusmoke on June 15, 2012, 05:01:55 AM
Every time i ride my brothers 250f i come back to the pits saying i know how he can go so fast lap after lap. They are smooth and easy to be consistent. However, i can run the same times on my RM that i can run on his bike but i can do them more consistently on his, especially when i am tired.
At the end of the day for me it comes down to 2 things.
1) i wont do any better racing a 250f than i do on my rm. My starts on the RM are good because even with a bad jump off the line i can pull past a heap of guys before the first turn. It is easier to start a race up front and hold your position than start from the back and make up positions
2) the cost and extra maintenance. I spend too much time at work to come home and change oil and filters and check valve clearances every few hours in my limited spare time. 25 hours between ring changes and 50 hours between pistons and oil changes every 10 and that is it. Sure there are the other things that are the same on both bikes like chain tension, spokes etc but engine maintenance and cost goes to the 2 stroke. It also ties in with the first point too, why would i spend the extra time and money on a bike that wont improve my racing.
also after reading Jody Weisel's story on building his race ready YZ 250 it just makes sense to be on a 2 stroke. Nicely ported and flywheel weight, i would love to ride that bike to see what it is like. I have had bikes in the past when i was just starting to race ported for a more even power spread. It made them much nicer and easier to ride. The 250 can sort of get around that with the extra power off the bottom that you can lug but it can only improve it
Well said. The 250s usually have a more forgiving powerband than the 125s/144s. If 250s can be made easier to ride it gives them a solid boost throughout the later minutes of a moto. Hey have you got a link for that story you mentioned?
Post by: scotty dog on June 15, 2012, 07:26:52 AM
http://motocrossactionmag.com/Main/News/INSIDE-MXAS-WORKSHOP-BUILDING-THE-ULTIMATE-2012-YA-8948.aspx:DEvery time i ride my brothers 250f i come back to the pits saying i know how he can go so fast lap after lap. They are smooth and easy to be consistent. However, i can run the same times on my RM that i can run on his bike but i can do them more consistently on his, especially when i am tired.
At the end of the day for me it comes down to 2 things.
1) i wont do any better racing a 250f than i do on my rm. My starts on the RM are good because even with a bad jump off the line i can pull past a heap of guys before the first turn. It is easier to start a race up front and hold your position than start from the back and make up positions
2) the cost and extra maintenance. I spend too much time at work to come home and change oil and filters and check valve clearances every few hours in my limited spare time. 25 hours between ring changes and 50 hours between pistons and oil changes every 10 and that is it. Sure there are the other things that are the same on both bikes like chain tension, spokes etc but engine maintenance and cost goes to the 2 stroke. It also ties in with the first point too, why would i spend the extra time and money on a bike that wont improve my racing.
also after reading Jody Weisel's story on building his race ready YZ 250 it just makes sense to be on a 2 stroke. Nicely ported and flywheel weight, i would love to ride that bike to see what it is like. I have had bikes in the past when i was just starting to race ported for a more even power spread. It made them much nicer and easier to ride. The 250 can sort of get around that with the extra power off the bottom that you can lug but it can only improve it
Well said. The 250s usually have a more forgiving powerband than the 125s/144s. If 250s can be made easier to ride it gives them a solid boost throughout the later minutes of a moto. Hey have you got a link for that story you mentioned?
I love it
Post by: Stusmoke on June 15, 2012, 07:47:05 AM
Post by: chump6784 on June 15, 2012, 03:53:38 PM
Thanks scotty. I appreciate it. What I'd give for one day on that monsterAnd he basically did all that for the price of a titanium 4 stroke exhaust. I believe that is a very similar setup to what DK runs in the nz lites class
Post by: snook620 on June 15, 2012, 07:22:34 PM
Its a good call. As I've said I'm actually faster on two strokes but thats just me. If you're an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction on the 250F and can afford it, go for it. But if you really don't want to go that way and are still serious about motocross, considering riding the 125 for a few months. Even then, if you still want to go back to the 250F, you'll probably be better at it. Not to mention wringing a 125's neck is just pure adrenaline soaked bliss right?
Yes it is
Post by: Stusmoke on June 15, 2012, 11:06:03 PM
Thats what I keep saying to my fooper trooper friends. I can do two top ends for the price of their valves. and 5 top ends for them to get their valves replaced.Thanks scotty. I appreciate it. What I'd give for one day on that monsterAnd he basically did all that for the price of a titanium 4 stroke exhaust. I believe that is a very similar setup to what DK runs in the nz lites class
Post by: ford832 on June 16, 2012, 01:11:07 PM
Post by: rookie on June 16, 2012, 04:29:36 PM
Post by: Stusmoke on June 17, 2012, 12:40:31 AM
the 150sx !
The funny part was you've posted exactly 150 times... hehehe...
Cool bike.Of interest to me was the fact that once he installed the same reed the KTM had,modified the head to what would have been stock before yamaha modded it to allow owners to burn a wider range of(crappy) fuel,and threw a pipe on it,he equaled KTM hp figures.So much for R&D.Just sayin'
Is that with a YZ144 or the 125? And by equalling KTM figures do you mean the stock KTM figures? Or the ktm figures after its been pipped up and modded in the same ways except for where it is stock?
Post by: cnrcpla on June 18, 2012, 05:14:20 AM