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Offline Braap257

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2010, 10:12:52 AM »
Id say Helmet,Boots,Gloves and Goggles are a MUST!!

Offline ford832

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2010, 02:59:35 PM »
More gear is better.At times in the past I haven't worn it(meaning just boots,jersey,helmet,gloves,goggles)and I feel the best that way but I always wear full gear (elbow,knee pads,chest protector etc.)these days.I don't care who you are or how good you are,you can't prevent a get off.Once you've witnessed some and had a few yourself,you'll change your mind Jetz.
I'd rather a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2010, 03:08:37 PM »
A few days ago I rode my friend's bike near his house.  A 16 year old kid came by on a CR125.  He was wearing a helmate and pants.  No shirt.
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2010, 04:26:46 PM »
I get the impression that people STILL think that I'm against adult riders wearing safety gear.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline ford832

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2010, 04:43:02 PM »
So,adults should but kids don't need to? :o
I'd rather a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2010, 05:01:04 PM »
Read what I posted before.  The extent of gear you wear will affect the way you ride, because it helps add to that "I'm invincible" feeling kids have.  If they don't wear too much gear (and remember I still consider helmet, gloves, and boots to be almost mandatory) then they will tend to ride more conservatively, especially if they are told some true stories of people who have crashed in the past.  Then, as they graduate up into faster and more capable bikes, they will have established safer riding habits and skills, that will make them less likely to crash.  At that point, more gear can (and should!) be added to protect them against the increased risk of having a higher-performance machine.  That way, in adulthood, an off-road rider will have a skill foundation that emphasizes caution, safety, and respect for the dangers of riding, but ALSO have their suit of armor.

The reason I think this, is that I grew up riding with short-travel suspension, and that increased my risk of being injured when riding.  So to compensate for this (which is an automatic subconscious process) I paid extra attention to clearing obstacles and focusing on what I was doing when I rode, because if I messed up in that regard, I knew the back-end hop like a cougar and throw me into the wilderness.  Then, when I got my Husky with long-travel suspension, I had the obstacle-avoidance instinct and skill that allowed me to either avoid potentially dangerous obstacles, or be so prepared for the "fatal" impact that everything works out.  I think that a similar approach can be applied to safety gear.

And once again, this applies to those doing off-road riding, not motocross, not freestyle, and not anything else that requires you to put yourself "on the edge" in order to perform successfully.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2010, 05:47:12 PM »
I don't think it does, anyone I ever rode with who wasn't wearing any gear I don't think would have ridden any differently with or without gear.

The kid who was 16 I saw the other day was riding that CR125 to the fullest and even doing table top jumps.  I'm not sure what else he would attempt he's not already attempting without gear.
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2010, 05:53:36 PM »
Well, maybe where I'm going wrong is summed up by a phrase I heard from a keynote speaker after a tour of a Boeing facility.  "Common sense is a lot less common than you'd like to think."  I know that, at least for ME, I heavily adjust the way I ride based on the percieved risk.  When I bent my rear brake lever on the 120, it slowed my pace massively on down-hills, because although the brake worked fine and I could have probably ridden normally, it was something different that I was unused to, and so it might be dangerous if something were to go awry.  That kind of thing.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2010, 06:21:23 PM »
I understand the arguement, but I just don't think it really holds up across the board.  An individual will always ride to their own experience and preference.  People adjust their own riding accordingly but it's always based on their own personality and their own experience.  

My impression is that some people, even without the gear, would still ride dangerously.  People who do not ride dangerously without the gear or be more cautious, would still ride to some level of caution because they already know they are not invincible or the gear wouldn't matter.  Take the Cry Baby video I have, those guys are doing crazy stuff on Harleys and they don't even have helmates on.  

Take yourself, if you go gear today, do you think you would ramp up your risk taking by ten fold?

The seat belt example I also do not think is a good one without more information for several points.

1. How many cars in the crashes actually had seat belts (i.e. there would still be cars on the road without seat belts).

2. How many people in the cars with seat belts were actually wearing them?  I bet a lot of people were not wearing them, even today you find people not wearing their seat belts.

3. What is the distribution of accidents which could have been prevented by seat belts vs. accidents which could not?  Did the ratio change and of those preventable did they have seat belts and were they wearing them?  Of the ones not preventable where they ALL wearing seatbelts and thus driving more risky than before?

4. How many cars were on the road before and after?  The number of cars and drivers has been increasing, what is the ratio of cars/drivers to accidents?


5. Did cars get faster?  Did speed limits change?  


The list goes on :)  Point I have is that it's not black & white with that example, need to know a lot more details of the study before stating seat belts made people go crazy!





« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 06:29:33 PM by opfermanmotors »
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2010, 07:46:40 PM »
Good points.  I think thought experiments do highlight the principle more clearly, though.  For example, if you knew there was a nuclear weapon in your car that would detonate upon impact with anything, would you drive differently than you do currently?  Of course!  If you were driving on a narrow canyon road, would it affect the way you drive if a guard-rail were put there between you and the precipice?  You can even observe this psychological effect in yourself, with lane widths.  I've noticed that even when speed limits are constant, it is easier to go too fast when lanes and shoulders are narrower.

I am confident that if I had been forced to start my driving career with a large, narrow-tired, loose-handling car like my dad grew up with, I would have established better habits than I got from the "you can take your hands off the wheel and it won't even matter" minivan that my mom had me learn to drive in.  But of course, as you say, these principles and thought experiments can come out wildly differently depending the person, their genetic tendencies, upbringing, etc.  That is something I probably didn't adequately take into account.  For some people, such as the no-shirt tabletop-jumping bandit you mentioned, it sounds like the behavioral effects of danger just aren't as drastic as with others.  Every time I see someone with their bike pointed at the edge of a big cliff with the motor revving and the clutch pulled in, I can't help but wonder if they even realize what kind of fire they're playing with.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2010, 08:06:06 PM »
My thought is what is "the norm" for the person and what are they "comfortable" with during riding.  If having no saftey gear is "the norm" then you don't realize you are less safe and are comfortable with your current level of safety.

Once gear becomes "the norm" things may change.  We used to wear open face helmates and even safety gear has changed over the years (I.E. did anyone wait for the Leat Neck Brace before doing a jump thinking hey I could be paralized or the risk of paralization is higher without it?). 

No amount of safety gear has ever rendered anyone invincible.  However, not giving the adequate saftey gear, IMHO, just allows that person to establish their "norm" under less safe conditions.




Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.