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Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2010, 03:36:36 PM »
Okay, there's a lot here.  Okay, let's start from the beginning.

John, you're good at taking what I say out of context, and perhaps I'm good at making that very easy.  You asked me to remember back to when I was at the 50cc age and think of how I felt invincible.  The fact is, I didn't.  Well, maybe I did for the first two weekends or whatever, but after a couple flying-W's, a few times flopping over in the mud (one of which ruined my front fender, which caused much crying) and a few scrapes and bruises, I quickly learned how to respect motorcycles for the mean toys that they are.  I not only think that riders should start their riding career with minimal safety gear (unless they're in an area with lots of rider traffic, in which case I would suggest learning to ride somewhere else) but I also think that recreational riders should spend at least a year on a bike with less than four inches of suspension travel, early in their development.  Of course, that's not going to happen, but there's a reason for it, a safety reason!  And by the way, when I say a minimum of safety gear, I mean helmet, boots, long pants, and gloves, with any of the above except the helmet being possibly expendable if absolutely necessary.  You can ride without boots if said boots have disappeared into the ether.  Just don't make a policy of it!

Like I've been trying to explain, the first few years of learning to ride are important, because that's the point when behaviors are very habit-forming.  If you're dressed like a turtle and have a bike that can hit almost anything, you will be more likely (not predestined, but more likely) to ride in a more reckless manner.  That's bad!  That's why I think you should be able to take your minor bruises, cuts, and abrasions while they're still minor, and condition yourself to reflexively finding the best line in all situations.  It's all about incentive.  Then, when you have trained yourself to be a good rider in this way, get yourself a good bike that can hit almost anything safely, but now you've got the extra skill to find ways of avoiding things, saving the bike, etc.  And you can go ahead and get your shin guards and elbow pads and chest-protector, because accidents will always happen, and now you've got a bike that can make them happen quite severely, in spite of your better crash-avoidance skill.  This is the department where I'm severely lacking, and I freely admit that.

John tells us to protect ourselves for a fall, I would modify that to, "Protect yourself against a fall, and then protect yourself for a fall."

I should re-emphasize, I'm not arguing against all riders wearing safety gear!  If I were unable to find my helmet, I wouldn't ride that day.  I may putt around camp or down the road at 20mph like an 80 year-old granny, but I wouldn't go an an epic 75mi journey.  That's an automatic safety procedure your brain does.  It knows, "Okay, my head is exposed like a damn cantaloupe, don't do anything stupid."  If you introduce some of this kind of thinking very early on (remember, I'm talking only sub-100cc stuff here, and never going as far as riding without a helmet) you will have that "don't do anything stupid" mentality ingrained into the very way you ride.

John, I respect your thoughts and opinions most of the time, but using the word "logic" in that sentence is sinful.  Laws exist in order to protect people and property from abuse or damage, even extremely minor damage like annoyance.  If there is no one within 30 miles to hear a bike that's running straight stinger (which, I should emphasize, I almost never do!) the sound is not violating anyone's person or property.  And if someone's close enough to have the sound be an annoyance, of course I'll pull in the clutch or click it into neutral.  Hell, I've been known to turn the motor completely off at times on that bike.  I don't know if you think I'm out to just blast people with my stinger and make them think I'm all big and bad.  I'd prefer it if that bike were quiet.  However, that particular bike cannot be made quiet without killing it's power, so that's why we don't use it much.

Now, for Coop.  It sounds to me like what we have here is a failure to communicate.  When you said he jumped a rock, it sounded (understandably) like it was intentional.  That's what the verb "to jump" usually implies, as opposed for the unintentional verb, "to hit."  I'm sorry for the confusion.  It sounds like the experience was beneficial for him, in that he'll probably give a lot more respect to the terrain after having an encounter as scary as that.  Reminds me of the time the 120 tried to drag me down a mountain into a barbed wire fence when I was 11.

If the kid hit a rock in such a way that he flew through the air and hit a tree, I think its reasonable to say there was some poor judgement involved.  Hitting rocks can be okay, if you do it right, but there are limits.  It sounds like he explored and went beyond the limits, and I hope this was made clear to him.  It's poor judgement to hit a rock that will send you flying in ways you're not familiar with.  Now, if you've been jumping that rock for ten years and know it's eccentricities, or if you're boondocking over it through the rock gardens at a speed that you are comfortable with, that's 100% fine.

You have to understand, I had no idea what the context of this "rock" was, so I just had to assume the worst and think he was seeking out rocks in some field to go bouncing off of.  I think you'll agree that sounded like bad judgement, given that failure to communicate.  Right?

The moral of this whole bloated, massive post of mine is that protective gear has its place, but as I said before, the way you ride and the general level of caution a rider demonstrates is far, far more important (from a safety standpoint) than the gear.  And that's a large part of why I think rider fatalities are higher than ever, and whenever you go to a riding park, everyone seems like they don't know what they're doing.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2010, 04:35:11 PM »
I found that even simple falls can lead to bruises or scratches without any protection where with protection, they are nothing as they should be.  I wear Pants, Boots, Shin/Knee Guards, Elbow Pads, Helmate, Googles (Although, recently wasn't b/c they get scratched up real fast however finding out that no googles = bad idea), chest protector, kidney belt and Ogio Flight vest with tools.

I also have the Leatt Neck Brace, however they are more suited for MX so I never wear it.  In the woods I have to duck under trees to where the neck brace is hard to use.  If I ever do MX I would wear it though.  There are soft neck braces, but not sure if they are worth getting.


Sound Check (Dirtbikes)

I have been concerned with sound given that we are required to have 99dB and I have the approved spark arrestor.  However, my bike is still loud.  I heard about that dB Snorkel, I may give it a try and see how it goes.

Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline JohnN

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 04:58:51 PM »
JETZ - I totally admit to being confused by you on many levels.

I did not take what you said out of context at all.. safety equipment is supposed to help and it's important.

I believe that you are so intelligent that you are over thinking what I'm saying.

It was not an attack on you nor your choices, but a warning to those that might listen to you. You have your own ideas of how things should be, that's good and fine if it works for you. But honestly telling folks they should ride with minimal gear so they do get hurt?? That's a bit over the top.

I truly understand where you are coming from, but I stand behind my statements.
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2010, 05:44:47 PM »
Well, I should clarify, I'm not saying that people should get on their CR500 and start railing berms and doing quadruples in a t-shirt and shorts.  If anyone does that, I think they'll have a great future being the world champion padded-cell rider in the 500 class.

What I'm saying is that people maybe cut down on the armor when they're on very small bikes with relatively small potential to damage them, and then take the injuries that come with that (which are all minor, unless the kid is a total idiot) and then come to respect that a motorcycle, if not respected and ridden with caution, can cause injury.  And really, 98% of it will be psychological.  The thought of "What if" will always be floating around in the back of their mind.  "What if I hit this?  Then it'll hurt, don't it that.  What if I hit this?  Oh, I think I can handle that, it's okay."  But I think if you start everything out thinking, "If I fall, it's okay, I've got protection!" then there are going to be problems 15 years down the road.

Here's a thought experiment for you.  Imagine that your kid is starting out with a new kind of riding gear that's bristling with airbags and magical safety wizardry, such that they could fall in any fashion under 30mph, and not even get bruised by it.  Then, the neighbor kid is told by his dad that the bike he's riding will spontaneously explode in a nuclear fireball if it ever falls down.  Which kid is going to have more skill and be a better rider when they're 30 years old, and outfitted with identical bikes and gear?

This is an extreme example, and the reason for that is to highlight the principle.

Also, think about this.  When the seat belt was made mandatory in new cars, it was supposed to be another level of safety to reduce the number of fatalities on the road.  But, mysteriously and despite all the tests and science that proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that seat belts would save your life in a crash, the fatalities were not reduced.  Why was this?  Because people had their seat belts, felt more confident and invincible, and drove more recklessly on a subconscious level.  Drivers were now much more likely to survive a crash, but they were crashing more often.  Of course, the pedestrian death toll went up, because they didn't have a seat belt to offset the reckless driving on behalf of their car-driving peers.  But of course, today it's suicidal not to wear the seat belt, because the general "I can live through it" subconscious thing has spread through the general public, and deciding to abstain from the seat belt would put you in the same category of the pedestrians who are being mowed down.

For me, that's the biggest reason I will have to start armoring up once I can afford it.  I'm pretty confident I can keep riding like I am for a long time to come and not smash myself into the ground.  Growing up on something as jumpy and wobbly-on-rocks as the 120 has trained me to really avoid shit at all costs, even on something that could easily take it.  But, I can't trust the other riders who hammer through intersections at 50 without even looking, and coming around blind corners with the ass-end hanging out like they're Kenny Roberts on a TZ750.  I followed my little "condition thyself" training program, but of course, no one else did.  With their safe bikes and their safe gear, they have come to accept unsafe riding practices.  That, ladies and gentlemen, is all I'm trying to avoid.  Learn to ride safely in the beginning, and then ADD your safe armor and safe bike to that.  What could be better?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 05:47:12 PM by JETZcorp »


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2010, 05:55:47 PM »
Whew!!. its like reading "Catcher in the rye".
Knock it back a peg jetz.
Accidents will always happen. Regardless of what gear you are wearing or not.
Look up what "Accident" means in the dictionary.
Your "safe practises" will not safegaurd against them.
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2010, 06:03:57 PM »
Yeah, they will, as demonstrated by the precedent set by seat-belts and airbags in cars, which both increased the rate of traffic... accidents.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline Coop

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2010, 07:51:52 PM »
I mean no disrespect JETZ, but your way of thinking makes no sense at all to me. I'll stick to wearing gear, and gearing my nephews up regardless of age or size, and we will all ride the way we enjoy.

Man how did my poor 60 rebuild thread turn into this? Thanks JETZ!  ;D
- Mike - Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive.

Offline riffraff

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2010, 09:17:40 PM »
OK my turn  :P Safety gear is great stuff, wish I could afford it all but I can't. I'm always on a tight budget so I ride with my work boots, but they are boots. Have I ever rode in sneakers? of course I have but I still don't recommend it to anyone. My order of necessity would be 1)helmet 2)boots 3)eye protection 4)gloves 5)other stuff
aaahhhhh yes, I remember the good old days

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2010, 09:23:27 PM »
I think that's a pretty good order.  I kinda have eye protection, in that I wear glasses, but after getting sprayed with gravel twice in the last... decade I think maybe I should look into some goggles to fit over the glasses.  After that I'll probably go for either knee pads (I've heard way too many stories about how fragile knees are) or a chest-protector in case something really big and scary goes down.  But helmet and glasses are the only things that I'd straight-up cancel a ride over - anything else missing and I'll just add a nice thick, creamy layer of caution and continue with the ride.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline JohnN

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2010, 04:54:01 AM »
Jetz - I clicked one of your posts... you went way over the line.

While I don't agree with everything you say, it was not a censorship issue, but an attack on another member of this site.

That will never be tolerated.

Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline msmola2002

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Re: 1994 KX60 rebuild/refurbish
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2010, 06:47:55 AM »


dress for the crash. It really doesn't take much to come off awkwardly and twist something and do some serious damage. Or cop an impact. One of the guys I have ridden with has had a knee reconstruction from smacking it into a tree. He now has some asterisk braces, which has saved his knees twice more.

Back in oz, when I rode on the street I would not get on without my kevlar arsed jeans, stout jacket, boots (bumper bars are at ankle height on the street) and a back protector. then you get blown past by a guy on an R1 in double pluggers, shorts and a wife beater.

the point is that I never did use that gear on the street - worst investment ever?  I can only hope. But I know of a guy who was squidding in a t shirt and shorts, came off at about 25mph. being soaked in peroxide and having the wounds cleaned out with a wire brush really makes you think twice.

you really cannot be underdressed.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 10:23:46 AM »
Well, I should be quick to point out that if I were going to ride on the street, I'd wear a higher standard of gear than I do now.  Traffic is your worst enemy, whether you're in a car, on a bike, or in a plane!  Likewise, I'd want a lot more gear if I were ever to do a motocross race.  Honestly, that's one of the main reasons I haven't done a race at Woodland yet.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline SachsGS

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2010, 07:30:21 PM »
I treat riding gear like insurance - I get as much as possible because you never know.

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2010, 11:01:07 PM »
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Safety Gear Thread...
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2010, 01:12:06 AM »
To be honest, I don't even think Chuck Norris could ride an ATV without killing himself.  It's enough of a challenge to find one perfect line through a section, I'd hate to have to hunt for clear lines in parallel.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?