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Offline 2T Institute

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Breaking News!
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2013, 09:56:20 AM »
MotoGP is 250cc per pot, they get 5 engines per year, to last roughly 2500km between rebuilds, they have a peak rpm of about 18,000 or so.Ditto F1 engines. If MX2 is getting expensive they just need to set a rule for the amount of engines allowed to be used in a year.

When the life and rpm limits were introduced in F1 the output dropped but by mid season HP had been recovered.Most of the engine life goals were reached with just better thermal management and some low friction coatings.

With 400cc torque would be lost, power would come through increased RPM, they have no technical parameter which engines must conform to either (stroke, rod length, rpm limit, ECU etc etc etc).

The 400cc engie would be difficult to ride fast.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Stusmoke

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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2013, 10:35:12 AM »
What classifies as replacing an engine in F1 anyway?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2013, 10:46:05 AM »
in motogp all engine covers have seals on then. you cant even adjust the valve clearances without breaking the seal!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2013, 10:49:30 AM »
This is a completely retarded idea and they waste of space that thought it up needs to find another job. All this is going to do, is make the open class more expensive. Need an example? All the KTM 350SXF is is a high revving 450. apart from the 2 pound difference. Makes MORE horsepower than the CRF450R just at a higher RPM. It can run with the big 450s, at a higher RPM. Thats all this is going to do. Although the extra 300ccs for the two stroke is a start... But it needs to be equal.

I'll bet my left nut that if this gets passed, and all the japs start pumping out 400cc four stonks, not one of them will loose any major peak horsepower.

Its a brilliant idea (FOR US!)

make the 4T even more expensive to run, while the factory 300 2T lasts all season!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Stusmoke

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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2013, 12:43:17 PM »
in motogp all engine covers have seals on then. you cant even adjust the valve clearances without breaking the seal!

But those things scream like a hospital labour ward!!! How do they hold together?!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline scotty dog

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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2013, 01:13:43 PM »


Its a brilliant idea (FOR US!)

make the 4T even more expensive to run, while the factory 300 2T lasts all season!
That's what I reckon too, while the fooper teams go broke,  the smoker teams will be thriving which will allow them topay for the best riders ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
F**K THE WHALES......................SAVE THE 2 STROKE!!!!

The hardest part about riding a 4 stroke is telling your parents your Gay!!

05 CR 250

Offline 2T Institute

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« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2013, 02:09:34 AM »
I am not sure in F1 (it would be similar to MotoGP) but each sealing tag has a number the numbers are checked and a log is kept by Mike Webb the Technical Director. Each time you change an engine the event is recorded. Gearbox can be accessed but not the engine, if you do you will have deemed to have used that engine and it cannot be returned to the bike untill it is given a new number. Engines that are past their rebuild by date are used in friday practice. With 3 GP's down this season nearly all of the km would be on just 1 engine.
How they get such high outputs and long life, would be a secret, but it's no secret they are all doing it and doing it very easily. I do know the oil/filter gets changed after every session, and a dry clutch helps keep contamination of the plain bearings to virtualy nothing.
Engines themselves won't be that expensive maybe 10,000Euros what will be a catch is if a factory asks silly money for a service or lease agreement.
I wouldn't expect any teams to go broke, I would expect factory and supported teams to run the 4T and private/ second tier teams to run the 2T.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline bearorso

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« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2013, 03:59:39 PM »
  This is Luongo doing what he has done for the last few decades.

He's been behind all of the various F*** ups in the GPs, whether it's been as an employee, or an owner of whichever 'organisation' that is 'promoting' the MX GPs.

It was purely a press meeting, to 'discuss' things with the MC Press - a few of which are his lap dogs.

I can only hope most of them aren't, and that they tear him a new arsehole for putting forward more BS, in their magazines and websites.

He's achieved his stated ambition of having only 20 /25 riders in the MX1 class, but now he's dealing with the reality of only having that number. MXGP, is Not Moto GP. Somehow, he thinks it can reach those levels of public interest. Not F***ing likely, and certainly Not by stuffing the sport up, even more than he has done so already, over so many years.

He's looking for the Golden Goose - for himself = being paid big dollars for the rights to a p**s poor , 1 hour live TV package.

Money, is all he cares about. Money for HIM.

I'd say the major companies have drilled into him that THEY want a viable MX2 class, with which to promote their main selling MXers (and, of course, ALL their other products - it's about the COMPANY NAME, not the type of bike. The Super Final  format, would drive the 250 class, into irrelevancy. And the companies do not want that.

In June (I think it is) Luongo / Youthstream will be having further meetings with the manufacturers. He's tried the 350 idea before, with backing from KTM, but it was shot down by the Japanese companies. For them, now is not the time to make / develop 350 to 400s. They are happy to make, and sell, 450s. And, as a life long follower of MX, Now And Never, is the time for dumbing down the Premier Class of Motocross - it's been bastardised enough by the 250 2t / 450 4t rules.

The BS about 450s being too fast is just that - BS. The argument for going to 800s in Moto GP was along those very same lines - 'safety'. Well, they just went faster, and the bikes became even more high tech and expensive to run - far more so than the 990s - and the 500cc 2,3 and 4 cylinder 2ts, well, they were in the league of 'chump change' by any   comparison.

450s, are not too fast - just as 500 MXers weren't. But, the 500s, held little interest for the manufacturers. Precisely the opposite is true with the 450s.

For once, I want the manufacturers to give Luongo and his pets in the FIM, a thorough Kicking. What is being regurgitated, in the form of 380s /400s as the 'premier class', is BS of the highest order. And we need the big manufacturers, including KTM (the biggest of the lot, in terms of participation in World MX GPs), to tell Luongo, and Wolfgang Srb, to go F*** themselves, in no uncertain manner.

I actually think, Luongo may be putting out the capacity reduction, plus the 2t capacity increase, to enable his other 'ideas' to be 'rubber stamped'. Throw those out there, to get the manufacturers attention, to then back down on, and have the other, equally ruinous 'rules' OK'd / put through.

   Don't be bloody saps and think a potential 300cc 2t / 400cc 4t class is a good thing - just because we'd get an extra 50cc onto a 250cc 2t.

  You'd just be showing your gullibility, and it would knock, completely on the head, the chance of ever having a 250cc equivalency class (and may lead to it disappearing where it has been allowed) at World and AMA Outdoors / SX level. And Any chance of equivalency in the Premier Class, be it 400 4t max, 450 max, or the best Real Class we could hope for, an up to 500 "Any Stroke Type" class .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline factoryX

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« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2013, 08:57:31 PM »
This is true and is what should be in place, but it will never happen  :'(. When it comes to power output 500 should be against 450's, 250 2t's vs. 250f's(Which are known for putting out faster lap times than 450's do), and 125 should be 125. 300 versus 400 would be sweet but it will still put 250 2t's in a hard place. It should be  85/125/250/open. It makes the most sense, and its surprising to see people not getting it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »


I ride an 03 yz250, wait 04, wait 05, what ever, they're all the same #$@% YOU!

Offline 2T Institute

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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2013, 12:42:29 AM »
Wait don't mean your telling me promotors are out to make a dollar?


MotoGP got more expensive from the fuel limits not the CC decrease, which required complex electronics and people to program the trick boxes. That came from the manufacturers themselves as the only way to justify racing budgets to company boards.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline DESERTFOX19

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« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2013, 10:20:33 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline factoryX

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« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2013, 10:55:56 PM »
Thanks for the read
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »


I ride an 03 yz250, wait 04, wait 05, what ever, they're all the same #$@% YOU!

Offline TMKIWI

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« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2013, 09:15:47 AM »
Interesting.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline 2T Institute

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« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2013, 08:46:18 AM »
That's is the Bernie Eccelstone blueprint, get goverments to underwrite your bottom line. Teams should no be so spineless, if they stand up en masse they have a chance, such as in F1 the teams get a considerable portion of the TV revenues, the distribution is the reverse of their position last year ie the tail end teams get a greater % than the front runners. The top tems got that for the lesser teams.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »