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Author Topic: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX  (Read 5575 times)

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Offline Turquine

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A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« on: April 12, 2010, 01:39:17 AM »
Here is the test I referred to in one of my posts as disturbing under another topic. Is something wrong here, you Maico experts out there, or would a 1981 490 Maico really lose or stay even with this thumper? I know from a Dirtbike mag test earlier this decade that the KX500 Kaw easily beat this thumper and the Honda XR650 in drag races and it seems to me the old Maico should have here too. Anyhow, here's the test article. --->
http://www.maicointernational.com/STUFF/ktm%20v%20maico/ktm%20525%20vs%20Maico%20490.htm


Offline Paul P

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2010, 04:09:24 AM »
I have done the same test with my FRESH 490 against a KTM 525 and I easily smoked the KTM, standing start and roll-on starts. It says in the test that their 490 was tired and in need of rings. Most of these 490's I've seen are set up poorly. I'm not sure if anyone on this site has seen Herbert Shmitz ride at a recent VMX race, but he has a correct running 490 also that is a better judge of what these bikes should run like.
                          Paul

Offline wintrader

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2010, 09:44:49 AM »
straight line performance yes you are right. But moto x is not about straight line performance only. But in real live motox still a 250 2 or 4 stroke will be much faster around a track then a 490 cc 2 stroke. As far as i know 500 cc 2 stroke were never faster round a track then 250 cc 2 strokes in their time.

But if you just want straight line performances buy a dragster.

What i think is that 4 stokes made a relatively cheap sport unnecesary (forgot how to spel it but in come from Amsterdam so i am allowed top make such mistakes) expensive. Which only benefits the big factories.

When a 250 2 stroke would be so much faster then a 4 stroke they should be able to destroy laptimes of a 250 4 stroke. But they do not do that. So it has to be something different like traction torque and easier to ride a four stroke.

If it would be so simple a 450 four stroke would be much faster then a 250 fourstoke which is not true either. Yes in straight line not on a track.

But i love 2 strokes and will not buy a four stroke because of maintainance and fun.


was it fair that cairoli drove it 350 ktm 4 stroke against 450 4 stroke and won?? He won with 100 cc less!!! He gone crazy to choose the bike with less horsepower???

Offline JohnN

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2010, 01:47:41 PM »
Quote
was it fair that cairoli drove it 350 ktm 4 stroke against 450 4 stroke and won?? He won with 100 cc less!!! He gone crazy to choose the bike with less horsepower???

In an interview Cairoli said that the difference was that on the 350 he can ride wide open and on the 450 he has to ride at half-throttle.... that he prefers riding wide open!!

As for the difference between lap times and race results... while the smaller bikes can be faster when on their own, in race conditions, the bigger bikes get in the way... alot!! When comparing a 250 two-stroke versus a 450 four-stroke, it's really noticeable in the turns. The 450's go so much slower into and around the turns compare to a 250 two-stroke, but all they have to do is turn on the throttle and they make up time on the 250 exiting the corner... mostly because of the power delivery...

To race a 250 two-stroke requires a great deal of riding skill and to be in great shape.... you will see more of them at the races...

Just saying!!
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Offline JETZcorp

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2010, 03:47:22 PM »
straight line performance yes you are right. But moto x is not about straight line performance only. But in real live motox still a 250 2 or 4 stroke will be much faster around a track then a 490 cc 2 stroke. As far as i know 500 cc 2 stroke were never faster round a track then 250 cc 2 strokes in their time.

But if you just want straight line performances buy a dragster.

Motocross isn't just about going fast around a track.  You're right that 500s were never faster on modern style jumpy tracks (rough-ass natural terrain tracks are another story, I think) but that never kept them from being the most popular class year after year.  Everybody thinks that people just stopped racing 500s because they were too difficult to ride for too little return on the clock.  That's not how it went down.  A few of the big factories (the ones who weren't winning in 500cc) lobbied the AMA to get the 500s taken out, and they took them out, even though it was still the more popular class.  And just because you want straight-line performance, it doesn't mean you must intrinsically give it all up in the turns.  That's where the term Maico Magic came in, because in their time (and still today for some, depending on rider preference (remember the guy who went from the CRF to the 490 partly for handling?)) they were baffling people because they had the best handling in the industry, but were also consistently at the top of the list on power.  They didn't always have the highest peak, but they were always the most usable.

I guess what I'm saying is, you really can't just say that wanting straight-line performance is a bad thing.  Depending on the rider, the track, and the handling that may come with the power, it can really be made to sing.  Everything has to line up.  If you've got a Maico Master on a 490, but he's racing on the Anaheim Supercross track, he'll get chewed.  Put the Maico Master on the old Carlsbad GP track on a YZ125, he'll get chewed.  Put someone who's used to a YZ125 at Carlsbad on the 490, he'll get chewed.  All three have to line up, and you get the YZ rider on his YZ125 destroying at Anaheim, and the Maico Master leveling the field at Carlsbad on his 490.  It's simple math, really. :)


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline maicoman009

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2010, 05:55:47 PM »
I agree with PaulP.The Maico 490 was a little on the tired side as stated in the test and being a previous owner of a 490 Mega 2 I can certainetly tell you they are very hard to jet properly!I'd also like to state that that Maico is 21 years older than the KTM 525 in the test & the newer KTM was only beating the Maico by a half wheel length or less!That alone should tell you how awesome those 81 Maicos' are!

Offline JohnN

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Offline JETZcorp

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2010, 07:33:38 PM »
The thing about the '81 is that, while it is certainly THE legend, it wasn't the fastest motor that came from the old Maico factory before they tanked.  That accolade belongs to the '83, which churned out 6hp more than the '81/82 according to Super Hunky.  While I don't like it aesthetically as much as the '81 because it's so much more conventional (geared primary, traditional-style clutch, etc.) it certainly managed to TCB.  The only problem I can really see with it is the 4-speed transmission the Spiders came with, which is tantamount to pouring liquid nitrogen on the already-lukewarm 5-speed fire.  When it comes time to kick ass and win drag races, and I'm all out of ass, I'd turn to the '83 Sand Spider as my weapon of choice.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline wintrader

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2010, 08:50:48 PM »
The thing about the '81 is that, while it is certainly THE legend, it wasn't the fastest motor that came from the old Maico factory before they tanked.  That accolade belongs to the '83, which churned out 6hp more than the '81/82 according to Super Hunky.  While I don't like it aesthetically as much as the '81 because it's so much more conventional (geared primary, traditional-style clutch, etc.) it certainly managed to TCB.  The only problem I can really see with it is the 4-speed transmission the Spiders came with, which is tantamount to pouring liquid nitrogen on the already-lukewarm 5-speed fire.  When it comes time to kick ass and win drag races, and I'm all out of ass, I'd turn to the '83 Sand Spider as my weapon of choice.

The maico 1981 was THE bike to ride because it was the easiest bike to go fast on. The best package. Great handling (for a 500 bike) BUT not the fastest bike in dragraces or HP. A KTM 490 or yamaha were faster in those days but a maico 490 would be faster round the track. The maico 490 was fast because it was NOT a beast to ride. My impression and i owned one and raced one in 1981.

Same as for instance a kramer 250 with rotation inlet. This bike was faster then my rm 250 suzuki but i was faster on the suzuki because they were the better package and power delivery was much more suitable ofr a motocross bike.

Offline Turquine

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2010, 09:54:31 PM »
Thanks for the info, Paul. I believe you, and that's about what my gut was telling me. Something wasn't right in that test, both machines running good, given reasonably equal riders, the Maico should beat the thumper six ways to Sunday, in acceleration. The Maico must have been VERY worn motorwise! Thanks for posting that, I feel a lot better. Wintrader, would it bother you any, if somebody did a test like the one I posted above, but with say, the Yamaha YZ 250 2stroke against the YZF 250 2stroke, and the test said that the 4stroke out-accelerated the 2stroke? You'd know that something ain't right if that were to happen! That's the way I felt when I read the test they did on the '81 490 Maico against the '03 525 KTM 4stroke. Thanks again to Paul P. for confirming my suspicions!

It disturbs me any time I see a 4stroke out-performing a 2stroke of about the same size, because that simply shouldn't be the case! You, Wintrader, might be content with the 2stroke merely being lighter and less costly to maintain than a 4stroke. Not me. The 2stroke should always out-perform the 4stroke, and by a considerable margin. Sure, a good rider on a 250 2stroke motocrosser can and will beat an average rider on a 250 2stroke around most modern tracks, but that doesn't mean the bike itself could or should, given equal riders. You can also design tracks, very easily, to favor 2stroke or 4stroke type of power, or to favor bikes that turn well over bikes that just turn okay, but are more oriented for handling at higher speeds. Simply add more curves and shorten the straights. Example: If you want to race around my back yard, get an old Honda XR 75 and you'll put any 250 or even 125 to shame!  Is that a silly analogy? No more than your analogy of, "if you want straight line performance, buy a dragster. Last time I checked, dragsters don't do well in desert riding overall, but open class 2stroke MX bikes do. In such situations, turning is still important, just not as critical as it would normally be around a 250 MX track. Any desert rider would know this, but I can understand if you might have misconceptions about that type of riding, a lot of people do. Yes, I know, this is primarily about motocross, but even there, acceleration is still important, see JETZcorp's post. On the average track today, a 250 would likely beat a 500 2stroke, but that's due to them setting up the tracks the way they do. They could also be set up to where the straights between turns are much longer, smaller whoops, steeper and longer uphills etc. Just because in fact, tracks are not set up that way, doesn't mean that's how it ought to be, any more than just because the rules say 2strokes cannot be larger than 250s when competing against 450 4strokes, is how it ought to be.

I'm not the only one on this board who loves 500cc or better 2strokes. Many of us are displeased that hardly anyone makes them anymore, and also that there is no longer an open class category in expert MX racing, along with outdoor tracks which allow one to make use of their amazing power much more readily. I would also venture to say that most of those who post here, that love the big-bore 2strokes, ride them off-road more than motocross, but would love the option of having more real, open class motocross tracks available. Just because this currently isn't so in the "real world", doesn't mean it shouldn't be so. That's all I'm saying. Also, a 2stroke 500, should easily out accelerate a 4stroke 500, every time, just as the 2stroke 250s will out accelerate the 4stroke 250s every time, given reasonable traction. When I see a case where this is not happening, I always smell a rat. 2+2 always equals 4, and when it doesn't, something ain't right. Yes, too, I know that one might expect a bike that outdated, to be down on performance compared to any modern bike even if the modern bike is a 4stroke, but that's not the case with folks familiar with the Maico 490 which is, power wise, in the same class as much newer CR500s, if running right. Now Had the guy been testing the '03 525 thumper against my old 1974 Yamaha SC 500, yes. I would expect the KTM to out accelerate the 2stroke in such a case. My brother-in-law's friend, however has an '81 490 Maico and I know what that bike can do, outdated or not. That is why I posted the test, hoping someone like Paul P. would confirm this and set the record straight. Thanks again, Paul.

Offline wintrader

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Re: A 1981 Maico 490 Mega 2 vs a 2003 KTM 525SX
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2010, 11:05:17 PM »
Thanks for the info, Paul. I believe you, and that's about what my gut was telling me. Something wasn't right in that test, both machines running good, given reasonably equal riders, the Maico should beat the thumper six ways to Sunday, in acceleration. The Maico must have been VERY worn motorwise! Thanks for posting that, I feel a lot better. Wintrader, would it bother you any, if somebody did a test like the one I posted above, but with say, the Yamaha YZ 250 2stroke against the YZF 250 2stroke, and the test said that the 4stroke out-accelerated the 2stroke? You'd know that something ain't right if that were to happen! That's the way I felt when I read the test they did on the '81 490 Maico against the '03 525 KTM 4stroke. Thanks again to Paul P. for confirming my suspicions!

It disturbs me any time I see a 4stroke out-performing a 2stroke of about the same size, because that simply shouldn't be the case! You, Wintrader, might be content with the 2stroke merely being lighter and less costly to maintain than a 4stroke. Not me. The 2stroke should always out-perform the 4stroke, and by a considerable margin. Sure, a good rider on a 250 2stroke motocrosser can and will beat an average rider on a 250 2stroke around most modern tracks, but that doesn't mean the bike itself could or should, given equal riders. You can also design tracks, very easily, to favor 2stroke or 4stroke type of power, or to favor bikes that turn well over bikes that just turn okay, but are more oriented for handling at higher speeds. Simply add more curves and shorten the straights. Example: If you want to race around my back yard, get an old Honda XR 75 and you'll put any 250 or even 125 to shame!  Is that a silly analogy? No more than your analogy of, "if you want straight line performance, buy a dragster. Last time I checked, dragsters don't do well in desert riding overall, but open class 2stroke MX bikes do. In such situations, turning is still important, just not as critical as it would normally be around a 250 MX track. Any desert rider would know this, but I can understand if you might have misconceptions about that type of riding, a lot of people do. Yes, I know, this is primarily about motocross, but even there, acceleration is still important, see JETZcorp's post. On the average track today, a 250 would likely beat a 500 2stroke, but that's due to them setting up the tracks the way they do. They could also be set up to where the straights between turns are much longer, smaller whoops, steeper and longer uphills etc. Just because in fact, tracks are not set up that way, doesn't mean that's how it ought to be, any more than just because the rules say 2strokes cannot be larger than 250s when competing against 450 4strokes, is how it ought to be.

I'm not the only one on this board who loves 500cc or better 2strokes. Many of us are displeased that hardly anyone makes them anymore, and also that there is no longer an open class category in expert MX racing, along with outdoor tracks which allow one to make use of their amazing power much more readily. I would also venture to say that most of those who post here, that love the big-bore 2strokes, ride them off-road more than motocross, but would love the option of having more real, open class motocross tracks available. Just because this currently isn't so in the "real world", doesn't mean it shouldn't be so. That's all I'm saying. Also, a 2stroke 500, should easily out accelerate a 4stroke 500, every time, just as the 2stroke 250s will out accelerate the 4stroke 250s every time, given reasonable traction. When I see a case where this is not happening, I always smell a rat. 2+2 always equals 4, and when it doesn't, something ain't right. Yes, too, I know that one might expect a bike that outdated, to be down on performance compared to any modern bike even if the modern bike is a 4stroke, but that's not the case with folks familiar with the Maico 490 which is, power wise, in the same class as much newer CR500s, if running right. Now Had the guy been testing the '03 525 thumper against my old 1974 Yamaha SC 500, yes. I would expect the KTM to out accelerate the 2stroke in such a case. My brother-in-law's friend, however has an '81 490 Maico and I know what that bike can do, outdated or not. That is why I posted the test, hoping someone like Paul P. would confirm this and set the record straight. Thanks again, Paul.


Must say i agree. Anyway i live in The Netherlands and there you see alot of 2 strokes in motox as in enduro. People got bored with the high maintainance costs of 4 strokes. And 2 strokes a nicer to ride, more flickable and lighter.  

I was just trying to say that the maico 490 is THE bike because the package was (is) so good. And you are right 2 stroke engines with same displacement will out accelerate 4 strokes.

And if tracks would be different with long straights and uphill and so on a 2 stroke will do better.

Lots of the GP tracks in Europe by the way have been the same for years and are not "so called"modern tracks. And again i state that on those tracks 250 were and are faster then 500 or 450 f's. Only thing i wanted to say.

I love 2 strokes and will not buy a four stroke but i was just thinking it is not so simple as sometimes is said here. Like if a 450 2 stroke bikes would be able to race against 450 4 strokes they would always win on a motox track.
for example i mentioned the KTM 350 four stroke.

Really i do not know. I just noticed myself when i was racing that i always was faster on a 250 or even 125 then on a 500 bike. And then i noticed that i was not the only one. That is it. And that we see this in modern racing again!!

And if they would build four strokes with pneumatic valves such a bike could out accelerate a 2 stroke with same displacement. But then again if they would put more money in developement of the 2 strokes who knows what will happen.

BUT now i am going to fitness because that will make me faster for sure!!!  

« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 02:06:59 AM by wintrader »