150f in 85 class argument over at ktmtalk

[citabjockey]

The moment there is sufficient ciritical mass of 150f's in the 85 class there will be tuners (doesn't event need to be honda) that will gladly take Dad's money to make junior's new red bike blow by the 85's. At that point the game is over and all the other 4T manufacturers will add to the pile on. History repeating itself here folks -- I really hope enough riders reject this as yet another unnecessary cost escalation for the sport and keep the pressure on from OUR side to keep the bikes separated. Write, email phone the AMA with your thoughts on the subject. Please.

My biggest issue with the 150?s is that they are built even more on the edge than a 250F.  What I mean by that is they are on the built to run on the ragged edge and can and will grenade.  My biggest concern is this occuring at the most inopportune time.  It?s as if safety be damned, win at all costs.   If you want your child to truly to learn ?how? to race, to learn proper technique, keep him on an 85cc bike.  An 85cc bike in the proper hand is an amazing bike.  But if all dad is more worried about trophies and winning at all costs, (both $$$ and potential safety hazards) by all means put him on the 150.

The 150 will do the same to the 85cc class that the 250F did to the 125cc class and the 450 did to the 250cc class.  Yes I still see it as 125 and 250cc classes.  Let the 450?s run in the open class.   So far the other MFG?s haven?t jumped on the 150F bandwagon, and I hope they never do.

[chump6784]

The September 2010 issue of Australasian Dirt bike magazine had a shootout of the 85's/150. They got together a group of fast kids and let them loose on the bikes. The bikes were ridden in standard form. There were no technicians there to tweak the bikes, the kids rode them and said what they though about them

Honda CRF 150 - Fastest lap - 1:47.8 minutes
Weight - 84.9 kg
All the kids said it was easy to ride but as none of them were used to four strokes this may be why the lap time was down.

KTM 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 73.6 kg
Best bottom end motor in class that pulls well all the way through. Shock was soft for the big kids with forks feeling harsh. chassis also appeared a lot bigger than the other brands, especially for the little kids

Suzuki Rm 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 75.3 kg
Good bottom end and mid range, not as good as KTM, forks too soft for bigger riders

Yamaha YZ 85 - Fastest lap - 1:46.0 minutes
Weight - 76.9 kg
Bottom end and mid range was lacking but a strong top. Suspension too hard in the front for little guys, too soft in the back for the big guys. Rated best in tight turns.

KX 85 wasn't available for testing

Obviously the suspension would be tuned for the rider but stock for stock these are all in the ballpark of eachother

[VintageBlueSmoke]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.

If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.

Well said and its got my backing. How would it be fair to allow a 150F to compete with an 85? Easier to ride and more power, its the 125/250F debate all over again. Except this time, you're running a bike thats for a 10-16 year old give or take. 15k of parts is a ridiculous bill for a kids bike no matter who you are. But its not just money thats the problem its also how unfair it is to the other kids, how much heavier the bike is to kids who can barely lift their 85, the heat of the engine when it lands on them, all these factors that make it not only unfair to put a kid on a 150, not just even worse for the sport, but downright dangerous.

Anyone with common sense can see what you are saying and agree, but million$ in marketing have a way of clouding the truth.

Someone should post the actual (not published) weights of the two bikes in question to go along with your last sentence. I am sure it would be enlightening.

The Honda site lists 234 POUNDS!? To me, this is reckless disregard for a child's safety. Nobody in their right mind would even consider putting a child on a 125 and they are LIGHTER than a 150f.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6687-en

The KX85 lists at 152 pounds.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/Product-Specifications.aspx?scid=8&id=677

At 80 pounds difference, that is considerably more mass driving a kid into the ground in a crash. Would any parent put an 80 pound Gyro on their kid's bike and send them out on the track?

They would be better off putting them on a detuned 250F as a lighter, safer, cheaper to maintain option at 227 pounds.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6699-en

Good post scooter042! I knew it was a heavier bike than the 2-strokes but 80 pounds is crazy and heavier than a 250F!?!

Now comes the question as to who's data is correct? chump6784 posted from the ADB mag of an 11.3 kg difference (roughly a 25 lb).

Either way. My kid won't be on a 25lb heavier bike!

[citabjockey]

And when the 250F bikes came out did they bury the 125's right away or did it take a bit of track and development time? We are witness to the very beginning of the the four stroke "revolution" once more. We all know what will happen. Maybe it will take 2 years, or 4 or 5 but we all know what will happen. There is no NEED for 150 four stroke in the 85 class.

The September 2010 issue of Australasian Dirt bike magazine had a shootout of the 85's/150. They got together a group of fast kids and let them loose on the bikes. The bikes were ridden in standard form. There were no technicians there to tweak the bikes, the kids rode them and said what they though about them

Honda CRF 150 - Fastest lap - 1:47.8 minutes
Weight - 84.9 kg
All the kids said it was easy to ride but as none of them were used to four strokes this may be why the lap time was down.

KTM 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 73.6 kg
Best bottom end motor in class that pulls well all the way through. Shock was soft for the big kids with forks feeling harsh. chassis also appeared a lot bigger than the other brands, especially for the little kids

Suzuki Rm 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 75.3 kg
Good bottom end and mid range, not as good as KTM, forks too soft for bigger riders

Yamaha YZ 85 - Fastest lap - 1:46.0 minutes
Weight - 76.9 kg
Bottom end and mid range was lacking but a strong top. Suspension too hard in the front for little guys, too soft in the back for the big guys. Rated best in tight turns.

KX 85 wasn't available for testing

Obviously the suspension would be tuned for the rider but stock for stock these are all in the ballpark of eachother

[SachsGS]

I think I know Honda's thinking - get them on a 4T from the start and keep the kiddies on the 4T$ right on up through the classes.

[citabjockey]

I think its even simpler.

1) Any class that is running two strokes, build a bike with a 2x engine size
2) convince the organizers/clubs  directly or indirectly to allow said bike in the class.
3) profit

I think I know Honda's thinking - get them on a 4T from the start and keep the kiddies on the 4T$ right on up through the classes.

[eprovenzano]

I think its even simpler.

1) Any class that is running two strokes, build a bike with a 2x engine size
2) convince the organizers/clubs  directly or indirectly to allow said bike in the class.
3) profit

EXACTLY!!!  it's all about the bottom line, PROFIT.

[Shawn36]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.

If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.

Well said and its got my backing. How would it be fair to allow a 150F to compete with an 85? Easier to ride and more power, its the 125/250F debate all over again. Except this time, you're running a bike thats for a 10-16 year old give or take. 15k of parts is a ridiculous bill for a kids bike no matter who you are. But its not just money thats the problem its also how unfair it is to the other kids, how much heavier the bike is to kids who can barely lift their 85, the heat of the engine when it lands on them, all these factors that make it not only unfair to put a kid on a 150, not just even worse for the sport, but downright dangerous.

Anyone with common sense can see what you are saying and agree, but million$ in marketing have a way of clouding the truth.

Someone should post the actual (not published) weights of the two bikes in question to go along with your last sentence. I am sure it would be enlightening.

The Honda site lists 234 POUNDS!? To me, this is reckless disregard for a child's safety. Nobody in their right mind would even consider putting a child on a 125 and they are LIGHTER than a 150f.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6687-en

The KX85 lists at 152 pounds.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/Product-Specifications.aspx?scid=8&id=677

At 80 pounds difference, that is considerably more mass driving a kid into the ground in a crash. Would any parent put an 80 pound Gyro on their kid's bike and send them out on the track?

They would be better off putting them on a detuned 250F as a lighter, safer, cheaper to maintain option at 227 pounds.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6699-en

The website obviously lists the weight for a 450 on accident.  The actual wet weight of the newest CRF150s is 170lbs. 

[SachsGS]

85's are very highly tuned yet parents have to buy them, I think you see the paradox here, engines riding the ragged edge trying to appeal to a very price conscious crowd. Take a CRF 150 and you potentially have this dilemma X2. I can only imagine parents not wanting to pay for blown up 150f's and minicycle racing attendance dwindling to zero.

[bearorso]

As I wrote in that thread - a 150cc Minicycle, Minicycle BW class for 150s, of any type. Same for 85s.

The posts for the inclusion of the 150Fs with 85s, are largely from (1) bloke wanting them in because his boy apparently rides a 150F better than he can ride an 85 2t. Well, "come in spinner" " title="Roll Eyes" class="smiley">. Others, well, obviously wanting the same BS as has happened with the Pro full sized bikes classes.

And Honda, wanting Exactly the same thing - a class handicapped for bigger 4ts. They had the opportunity to use the existing 125 4t capacity allowed against the 85s, and didn't do it. **** them with a barbed wire wound implement. "All 4ts, all the Time", bugger that. Though, I'd say the same thing if applied to 2ts. I look (perhaps unrealistically) to hearing both types out on the track - both the same max capacities, both pinning it. The World would be put to rights, at last.

No - the CRF150R, Is Not 80+lbs heavier than an 85 - it's roughly 30 /35lbs heavier. A 150f, two valve foo foo Honda, sure is probably the 80+ lb heavier 150.

[Stusmoke]

I think its even simpler.

1) Any class that is running two strokes, build a bike with a 2x engine size
2) convince the organizers/clubs  directly or indirectly to allow said bike in the class.
3) profit

EXACTLY!!!  it's all about the bottom line, PROFIT.

Agreed

The September 2010 issue of Australasian Dirt bike magazine had a shootout of the 85's/150. They got together a group of fast kids and let them loose on the bikes. The bikes were ridden in standard form. There were no technicians there to tweak the bikes, the kids rode them and said what they though about them

Honda CRF 150 - Fastest lap - 1:47.8 minutes
Weight - 84.9 kg
All the kids said it was easy to ride but as none of them were used to four strokes this may be why the lap time was down.

KTM 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 73.6 kg
Best bottom end motor in class that pulls well all the way through. Shock was soft for the big kids with forks feeling harsh. chassis also appeared a lot bigger than the other brands, especially for the little kids

Suzuki Rm 85 - Fastest lap - 1:45.5 minutes
Weight - 75.3 kg
Good bottom end and mid range, not as good as KTM, forks too soft for bigger riders

Yamaha YZ 85 - Fastest lap - 1:46.0 minutes
Weight - 76.9 kg
Bottom end and mid range was lacking but a strong top. Suspension too hard in the front for little guys, too soft in the back for the big guys. Rated best in tight turns.

KX 85 wasn't available for testing

Obviously the suspension would be tuned for the rider but stock for stock these are all in the ballpark of eachother

11.3 Kgs PLUS the extra gyro effect is a disaster waiting to happen. Period.

As I wrote in that thread - a 150cc Minicycle, Minicycle BW class for 150s, of any type. Same for 85s.

The posts for the inclusion of the 150Fs with 85s, are largely from (1) bloke wanting them in because his boy apparently rides a 150F better than he can ride an 85 2t. Well, "come in spinner" " title="Roll Eyes" class="smiley">. Others, well, obviously wanting the same BS as has happened with the Pro full sized bikes classes.

And Honda, wanting Exactly the same thing - a class handicapped for bigger 4ts. They had the opportunity to use the existing 125 4t capacity allowed against the 85s, and didn't do it. **** them with a barbed wire wound implement. "All 4ts, all the Time", bugger that. Though, I'd say the same thing if applied to 2ts. I look (perhaps unrealistically) to hearing both types out on the track - both the same max capacities, both pinning it. The World would be put to rights, at last.

No - the CRF150R, Is Not 80+lbs heavier than an 85 - it's roughly 30 /35lbs heavier. A 150f, two valve foo foo Honda, sure is probably the 80+ lb heavier 150.

Well said mate and its like everyone else is saying: its the 125 class all over again: double the capacity, half the effort for riding, quad-triple the profit (atleast)

[TMKIWI]

No - the CRF150R, Is Not 80+lbs heavier than an 85 - it's roughly 30 /35lbs heavier. A 150f, two valve foo foo Honda, sure is probably the 80+ lb heavier 150.

Yep the 150f is about 110Kg the R 85Kg.
2 very different beasts. the f is a xr125 with modern plastics. Not a bad bike for its purpose and is how 4 strokes should have stayed.
For those worried about a take over, the 150R has been around for a few years now and Honda must be on another big push to get it included. Thankfully so far there seems to be enough level headed people in the right places to have kept it out. Mostly.
Lets hope it stays that way. Also the other manufactors have said they are not interested in following suit.

[Stusmoke]

No - the CRF150R, Is Not 80+lbs heavier than an 85 - it's roughly 30 /35lbs heavier. A 150f, two valve foo foo Honda, sure is probably the 80+ lb heavier 150.

Yep the 150f is about 110Kg the R 85Kg.
2 very different beasts. the f is a xr125 with modern plastics. Not a bad bike for its purpose and is how 4 strokes should have stayed.
For those worried about a take over, the 150R has been around for a few years now and Honda must be on another big push to get it included. Thankfully so far there seems to be enough level headed people in the right places to have kept it out. Mostly.
Lets hope it stays that way. Also the other manufactors have said they are not interested in following suit.

They've only said that because its not really working out that well for Honda. If the 150f is allowed in the 85 classes by AMA rules I'll be willing to be the other big guns will put out their own recreation.

[TMKIWI]

They've only said that because its not really working out that well for Honda. If the 150f is allowed in the 85 classes by AMA rules I'll be willing to be the other big guns will put out their own recreation.

Yes and no stu.
Honda have been trying for 4-5 years to get the 150R into the 85 class and all along all the other manufactors have said they are not interested.
BUT if the powers that be do let it in I am sure the others may follow suit. 
I think 1 of the reasons no one else is interested is they are making money for jam from the 85's as they have no developement costs with the bikes now and all the brands bikes are competitve against each other.
Why spend money developing a new bike when you make plenty from the bike you have.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

They've only said that because its not really working out that well for Honda. If the 150f is allowed in the 85 classes by AMA rules I'll be willing to be the other big guns will put out their own recreation.

Yes and no stu.
Honda have been trying for 4-5 years to get the 150R into the 85 class and all along all the other manufactors have said they are not interested.
BUT if the powers that be do let it in I am sure the others may follow suit. 
I think 1 of the reasons no one else is interested is they are making money for jam from the 85's as they have no developement costs with the bikes now and all the brands bikes are competitve against each other.
Why spend money developing a new bike when you make plenty from the bike you have.

...that and you'd be surprised how SMALL the minicycle market is. In the '90's, I was shocked at just how few were sold. It really put into context and really made me understand why development was so limited. I'm sure nothing has changed (positively) in the market place.