150f in 85 class argument over at ktmtalk

[citabjockey]

Everyone should take a gander at http://ktmtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=460575

The argument is over allowing the 150f honda in the 85 class. There are VERY strident voices on both sides of this. I can understand the guys that DON'T want the 150f's but I just don't understand how the other side says its a good thing (with a straight face and VERY serious tone). If these 150f's are great bikes, start a new class for them and be done with it. Then the folks that can afford them can race them.

Anyway, its in interesting read.

[gpnewhouse7]

I dont see how the 150f posses any threat to the 85 as the kids who race in that class will ot be able to throw it round as much as an 85 but the extra power will make up for that in other parts of the track, they race them together around here and usually the smaller kids will ride 85s and the bigger kids ride 150f's. The two bikes are surprisingly evenly matched.

[citabjockey]

When Doug Henry won his first supercross on a yamaha 400 four stroke back in the day nobody though there was a threat by 2x sized four strokes. This is history repeating itself. There is no need for a 150 4T in that class. Given a few years development the 85's will not stand a chance anymore. The madness really should be stopped somewhere....

I dont see how the 150f posses any threat to the 85 as the kids who race in that class will ot be able to throw it round as much as an 85 but the extra power will make up for that in other parts of the track, they race them together around here and usually the smaller kids will ride 85s and the bigger kids ride 150f's. The two bikes are surprisingly evenly matched.

[twosmoke595]

When Doug Henry won his first supercross on a yamaha 400 four stroke back in the day nobody though there was a threat by 2x sized four strokes. This is history repeating itself. There is no need for a 150 4T in that class. Given a few years development the 85's will not stand a chance anymore. The madness really should be stopped somewhere....

I dont see how the 150f posses any threat to the 85 as the kids who race in that class will ot be able to throw it round as much as an 85 but the extra power will make up for that in other parts of the track, they race them together around here and usually the smaller kids will ride 85s and the bigger kids ride 150f's. The two bikes are surprisingly evenly matched.

exactly
the 400/426/450 and the 250f weren't meant to compete with the smaller 2 strokes, they were meant to replace them. which they did. And if this keeps up, we will see the same thing happen in this class. next thing you know honda will have a 90-100cc mini 4 stroke to compete with the 65's

[gpnewhouse7]

Fair point but hasnt the FIM already banned them from world championship races?

[Suzuki TS250/185]

This is why you shouldn't make fun of those people who dare to suggest that there is a "Conspiracy" involving Fonda and our beloved Money Grubbing sanctioning/manufacturer pandering bodies....

[citabjockey]

I for one don't think its a conspiracy -- beyond Honda marketing at work. They made a bike. They want it to sell. There are tons of honda fans out there that will say anything to have themselves (or in this case) their kid riding their beloved red bike. I think the AMA gets pressured by letters from these folks at least as much as they would be pressured by Honda Inc directly. Maybe I am naive here. But looks at the ktmtalk thread there are what appear to be run of the mill riders and dads out there that just want to see it happen -- and the only reason why, from what I can tell, is because they like their hondas.

[Lolerbabop]

Given a few years development the 85's will not stand a chance anymore.

I'm just throwing this out there; I don't see how that would be a good thing for a kids bike.

[citabjockey]

Exactly my point. I see no need for a AMA rule change for this class (like was done for 250 and 125 years ago). The only benefit is to somebody that doesn't make two strokes and wants to sell more four strokes -- at least as far as I can tell.

Given a few years development the 85's will not stand a chance anymore.

I'm just throwing this out there; I don't see how that would be a good thing for a kids bike.

[TMKIWI]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.
If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.

[Stusmoke]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.
If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.

Well said and its got my backing. How would it be fair to allow a 150F to compete with an 85? Easier to ride and more power, its the 125/250F debate all over again. Except this time, you're running a bike thats for a 10-16 year old give or take. 15k of parts is a ridiculous bill for a kids bike no matter who you are. But its not just money thats the problem its also how unfair it is to the other kids, how much heavier the bike is to kids who can barely lift their 85, the heat of the engine when it lands on them, all these factors that make it not only unfair to put a kid on a 150, not just even worse for the sport, but downright dangerous.

[beaner]

I was thinking about this on the weekend. Our club allows them, but out of about 40 85's, there are maybe 3 150's. In our club, they are not particularly competitive, and run mid to back of the pack.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

They are allowed in Europe 85cc class and the Portugese National (class) Champion rides one. If you don't think these kids can throw them around, you should see this kid. He is doing huge whips and clearing all the big bike jumps. He is just amazing! I am also pretty sure than except for the normal stuff (suspension, exhaust, bling bits), his bike is pretty normal. I didn't notice custom hubs or noted any really trick bits.

That said, 3rd place in the race I watched was a kid on a KTM 65. He was just moving up to the 85 class and his bike blew up (used up 2 stroke) so he rode his 65 cc class bike.

I see what they are trying to do - come up with an equivellency formula for 2 and 4 strokes. Honda - a company who is embracing, if not leading the 4 stroke movement built a bike to the rules proclaimed by the AMA and FIM. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. I see no conspiracy here.

They still call it the 85cc class, don't they?

[scooter042]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.
The 150F's were thrown out of our nationals a couple of years ago but there are still clubs and meetings that still allow them.
A guy I work with , his son is 1 of the top 11 year olds over here and we were talking about this just the other day.
While there is not much between the bikes when standard there is when money is spent.
A kid his son raced against a couple of weeks ago had $15k worth of Pro Circuit bits in the bike.
Thats just bullshit for a kids bikes.
For the record the 85's could not keep up with that particular 150 down the straight.
When that same kid has to race a 85 in the nationals he is average.
Check book racing for kids is just dumb.

If Honda want kids to ride their 150's they should start their own series or just piss off.

Well said and its got my backing. How would it be fair to allow a 150F to compete with an 85? Easier to ride and more power, its the 125/250F debate all over again. Except this time, you're running a bike thats for a 10-16 year old give or take. 15k of parts is a ridiculous bill for a kids bike no matter who you are. But its not just money thats the problem its also how unfair it is to the other kids, how much heavier the bike is to kids who can barely lift their 85, the heat of the engine when it lands on them, all these factors that make it not only unfair to put a kid on a 150, not just even worse for the sport, but downright dangerous.

Anyone with common sense can see what you are saying and agree, but million$ in marketing have a way of clouding the truth.

Someone should post the actual (not published) weights of the two bikes in question to go along with your last sentence. I am sure it would be enlightening.

The Honda site lists 234 POUNDS!? To me, this is reckless disregard for a child's safety. Nobody in their right mind would even consider putting a child on a 125 and they are LIGHTER than a 150f.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6687-en

The KX85 lists at 152 pounds.
http://www.kawasaki.com/Products/Product-Specifications.aspx?scid=8&id=677

At 80 pounds difference, that is considerably more mass driving a kid into the ground in a crash. Would any parent put an 80 pound Gyro on their kid's bike and send them out on the track?

They would be better off putting them on a detuned 250F as a lighter, safer, cheaper to maintain option at 227 pounds.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=6699-en

[eprovenzano]

My biggest issue with the 150?s is that they are built even more on the edge than a 250F.  What I mean by that is they are on the built to run on the ragged edge and can and will grenade.  My biggest concern is this occuring at the most inopportune time.  It?s as if safety be damned, win at all costs.   If you want your child to truly to learn ?how? to race, to learn proper technique, keep him on an 85cc bike.  An 85cc bike in the proper hand is an amazing bike.  But if all dad is more worried about trophies and winning at all costs, (both $$$ and potential safety hazards) by all means put him on the 150.

The 150 will do the same to the 85cc class that the 250F did to the 125cc class and the 450 did to the 250cc class.  Yes I still see it as 125 and 250cc classes.  Let the 450?s run in the open class.   So far the other MFG?s haven?t jumped on the 150F bandwagon, and I hope they never do.