Two strokes aren't much good in the woods anyway.....

[ford832]

Well,looking at the pics I can definitely see a quality difference-of the pictures.Once again,updated body work,pretty graphics,better add ons etc have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of a machine.The euros make some pretty bikes-and some very good ones-but,with a few exceptions,you'll look long and hard to be able to beat Japanese overall machine quality.Whether bikes,cars,boats,industrial machinery etc,it's all the same.
I like mx and love practicing on mx tracks but I primarily do off road/hare scrambles.The YZ is very easily set up for this,as are others.
Many people seem to think KTM's etc are the magic bullet out of the box for off road but it's simply not true.Any Jap bike is a suspension revalve(something most KTM's need anyway) and a flywheel weight away from being an equal woods mount.Having owned both,I just don't see much difference-with the exception of much better suspension the YZ.
For the record,WP's PDS suspension system is an Ohlins design licensed to WP.Anyone hazard a guess as to who owns Ohlins?
If you guessed Yamaha,you'd be right.How's a little Jap suspension on those Gassers and TM's for you.

[SachsGS]

I'm sorry Ford but things are busy back in the Fatherland. Germany is the world's largest manufacturer of machinery, Mercedes Benz, Audi, BMW and Porsche have decimated their Japanese competition, Volkswagen has or soon will (depending how you calculate) displace Toyota as the number 1 auto manufacturer, MB is either 1 or 2 in truck manufacturing and BMW motorcycle sales growth figures are far in excess of the Japanese (try to buy their new 1000cc sportbike). There is a reason for this - quality.

I've owned and raced both Euro and Japanese bikes and the Euro bikes are definitely higher quality.The engine castings contain less impurities, the Euros have true chrome moly frames, Maico pistons last at least three times as long as Japanese pistons and the Euro suspension components are of a higher quality,When I purchased my Maico 380 it was lighter,more powerful,had better brakes and handled better then anything the Japanese had to offer at the time.

The WP PDS rear shock operates on an entirely different principle then the Ohlins counterpart.When Yamaha purchased Ohlins, Ohlins technology began to appear in Japanese suspension - if you don't believe me check out any mid 80's YZ. So actually the opposite is true of what you say. Ohlins revolutionized Japanese suspension. 

KTM has trounced the Japanese in offroad competition - that is why any starting line is a sea of orange.If you think you think your YZ is a revalve and a flywheel weight away from matching the latest Euros, I think you are mistaken.Before you attempt to argue otherwise,ride a new TM for example, things are a changing.

[maicoman009]

The point I was trying to make was I would be quite happy to buy an 06" YZ and spend some money on it to rebuild it.
But I would not spend any money on a new one.
For a new bike my money will be going to GG/TM or Husky ( I like their new CR125 which here, comes with a free 150cc Kit ).
Or for the price a RM250.
My beef with Yamaha is charging new prices for an old bike.
You can buy a new RM here for $2500 cheaper then a YZ.
That difference gives you alot of spare cash to bling up or Modify a bike which is pretty good as well.

Now if Yamaha released something like this, Well

That YZ-250 that I'm looking at is a piece of art!!! It's really a GREAT looking bike & you can never go wrong with the color scheme of black,red,white! It just makes the ride look so damn wicked >:-D I just realized something after checking that YZ-250 out and what I realized is I thought or was told that Maico was bringing out an Enduro bike also. Has anybody got to see the British Maico Enduro bikes yet??? ANYBODY!?!? Me either so I decided to just keep lovin' & ridin' the pretty sick bike that I bought last May.....The KTM-300xc that I've wanted for sooo many years and Thanks to Coop for leading me in the right direction to get the beast!!!!!!

[TMKIWI]

Yamaha has sold it's shares in Ohlins back to Ohlins.
I think they only had 15% anyway.
Starting to clutch at straws I think.

[TMKIWI]

Talking about Yamaha............
Was just watching the Indy GP qualifying and the Yamaha's off Spies & Lorenzo are in the old school White/Red colours.
They look bloody good.

Why did Yamaha change ? Anyone know.
It was always:
Honda= Red
Suzuki= Yellow
Kawasaki= Green
Yamaha Europe= White/Red
Yamaha USA= Yellow/Black.

How did they come up with Blue.?

[ACMX]

Yellow was taken and blue was available.

[ford832]

Sorry sachs but I think you're slightly misinformed.Sales figures in Europe don't mean anything here as it is an entirely different market with entirely different vehicles in many cases.Comparing a maico of years gone by to present day is somewhat irrelevant.
I was VW faithful for years.From my Superbeetle to Fox GTS to various incarnations of GTI's and Wolfsburgs,I though they were great-and they were-the big downhill slide started around '96.These days,I wouldn't touch one with a 10 ft pole.
BMW cars are a an ungodly,thundering pos.Astounding for their poor quality and abominable fit and finish,their only claim to fame is a being immensely overpriced.As for the BMW bikes,I couldn't say though I've heard good reports.
I had 3 old MB's and they were all good.Present day,from the ones I've worked on I'd say that's still largely the case.
Audi's are the same as VW's and some platforms are identical with different bodies(A4's and Passats for instance)so the same evaluation applies.
If you want to test present day VW quality,walk in to any dealer and while talking to the salesman,lean your butt against the front fender.
Our local dealer is kept busy running to the body shop.The result looks like you took a maul to it.
MY KTM's and Berg did have better quality metal for sure.I always thought maybe the jap stuff was recycled but I don't know that.
Polished jap aluminum looks funky but polished euro looks deep and even.
My point with the Ohlins is that the euros often use jap parts if they feel it is the best available-and I always felt that was one of their strengths.Would you really rather KTM trash their Kokusan ignitions for SEM's?
For what it's worth,for a 2 year hiatus from mechanics I worked on machinery at a manufacturing facility.It was all German stuff-and typical.Very good in some ways and ridiculously poor in others.
What I am still trying unsuccessfully to get across is the difference in build quality-not the parts that are put on or blinginess of some of the materials.The actual build quality of the machine.My EXC pissed fork oil from day one,my SX mud guard wore a big groove in the lower shock boss,my berg chain wore a big groove in the frame my first ride.There are many other examples on each of those but those are the first that come to mind.My buddies that ride current euros deal with similar things.I can't speak for the 11's though.
As for the new,revolutionary off road 2t's,I haven't seen them yet.Granted,there are many I haven't seen but I would be interested in someone telling me new technology or bits they use that make them so superior.
Oh yeah,WP and Ohlins are exactly the same principle.WP has simply altered the design year after year in an effort to get rid of the harshness.
Oops,gotta run.F1 comes on in 2 min......

[SachsGS]

I was quoting global sales figures.MB sells more luxury cars in Canada then all the Japanese combined.Times two. With respect to quality control it is the Japanese making headlines with automotive recalls.BMW is the most profitable car company on this planet.Audi is one of the fastest growing brands globally.I have a friend who is a Toyoata/Mazda/Honda service and warranty technician. He said some of the new Hondas are so cheap they don't use inner fender liners anymore.His Toyota Tundra pickup leaked so bad he couldn't take it through a car wash.He bought a Chevy pickup.

Not only have I maintained machinery I have designed it.Go to Japan (and China) and see what is in use there. It is German technology building those shiny new aluminum frames for example.

Design wise my Maico is newer then your Yamaha.I suspect Ford it is you who can't (or is unwilling) to grasp concepts.My Suzuki blew shocks from day one,the discs wore out overnight,my friend's Yamaha blew gearboxes and the Kawasakis broke everything.I will give the Hondas high marks for their durability but they have their turkeys too.

The new Euro bikes are simply newer machines then your Yamaha.

The Euros use Japanese components for North American bound bikes because that is what the U.S. mags harp about.You know that Ford.My SEM and PVL systems are at least as reliable as the Japanese stuff (don't forget my business repaired many bikes each year.).

You are right, the WP and Ohlins non mechanical linkage systems are based on the same principal - the rear suspension geometry of a 79 RM.Beyond that they are different.

The reality is that the Japanese have abandoned the two stroke offroad motorcycle.The Euros have not and it is beginning to show.

[ford832]

It's hardly surprising MB sells more luxury cars-that's all they sell and if you're in that upscale market,that's what you buy for prestige,if for no other reason.I'm not surprised BMW is so profitable.Their cars are made of cheap sh!t and they charge max $$ for them.Oddly,people still buy in to the name.
The Japanese are making headlines with recalls(headlines have no correlation to numbers btw.).Toyota's runaway throttle issue turned out to be nonexistent(interstingly,this fact wasn't widely reported).Somebody had a floormat or something jammed up and everyone else jumped on the bandwagon to try to make some$$
Toyota started replacing assemblies as a goodwill thing even though nothing was wrong.
The US gov't absolutely crucified them over this.Interesting how the US gov't owned GM at this point  as they were almost out of business.How great would it be to be able to legislate massive hardship and huge $$ loss for one of your competitors?GM had then and currently has many serious recalls and yet the common person never hears about them on the news-I wonder why that is.I wish your GM truck buddy luck-and$$'s- he'll need both.
You will have lemons in every vehicle but Toyota and other Japanese cars have only a fraction of American and Euro recalls and TSB's.Auto wise at least,that's fact.I wish I could somehow link to our recall info at work.
If everyone of our customers drove a Toyota,I'd be out of a job.
You say euro bikes headed for the us get jap parts because that's what we want-not because they're better?What does the rest of the world get-do the home market KTM's get SEM's?Yeah,right.
I've got more but the Hurricane is coming.I need to batten down the hatches before the MotoGP race comes on-I think it's early this afternoon.....

[TMKIWI]

What about passion and Soul.?
No one would argue that the Japanese build reliable Cars & Bikes.
But do any of them have a soul.?
If everybody purchased based on reliability there would be no companies left like:
Ferrari/Lamborghini/Maserati or Ducati/Moto Guzzi/Husqvarna.
None of the above would have made it out of the 80's.
All the kids had Ferrari/Lamborghini posters above their beds, Not Toyota.
Some of the Euro bikes might have some quirks about them but the design and performance of them is what makes people buy them.
Reading on forums there doesn't seem to be too many issues these days with any of the Euro bikes.
CRF valve issues, Well you could write a book. ( And Honda's are supposed to be the best. )
I am glad we have a choice.
Some people prefer buying based on what their head say's , Some with their heart.

That would be a sad day if all we could buy was a Honda Civic & a CT110.
Both will outlast everything on the planet but the human race would be extinct, because we would have all killed ourselves.

[SachsGS]

Toughest rear shock built - Rieger.
Best brakes - Brembos.
Superb fork - Ohlins.
Shall I go on?  


 When I was very young a friend of my father gave me a 1966 Ducati Mach One 250.The little Duc had clip ons,rear sets,was fire engine red,a cafe racer seat,megaphone exhaust and the 4 lobe desmo cam among other things. I knew nothing about motorcycles yet, instinctively, I knew this piece of machinery was very,very special.I still own the Ducati but have sold every Japanese bike I have ever had.I wonder why that is so?

[VintageBlueSmoke]

...back to the subject...

Did you see the top 10 starting pros at the national enduro in Pa? The first thumper was 10 rows back. Everyone has switch to 2T's and the new 'bergs ran away with it!

[Mountain Goat]

What about passion and Soul.?
No one would argue that the Japanese build reliable Cars & Bikes.
But do any of them have a soul.?
If everybody purchased based on reliability there would be no companies left like:
Ferrari/Lamborghini/Maserati or Ducati/Moto Guzzi/Husqvarna.
None of the above would have made it out of the 80's.
All the kids had Ferrari/Lamborghini posters above their beds, Not Toyota.
Some of the Euro bikes might have some quirks about them but the design and performance of them is what makes people buy them.
Reading on forums there doesn't seem to be too many issues these days with any of the Euro bikes.
CRF valve issues, Well you could write a book. ( And Honda's are supposed to be the best. )
I am glad we have a choice.
Some people prefer buying based on what their head say's , Some with their heart.

That would be a sad day if all we could buy was a Honda Civic & a CT110. :'(
Both will outlast everything on the planet but the human race would be extinct, because we would have all killed ourselves.

The cherry, nearly-new '08 RM250 I bought this weekend has a soul.  Pissed-off hornet.

Here's a 200mph+ $445,000 560hp V10 (that can rev to redline in .6 seconds) Toyota, with a 3.6sec-to-60 for your bedroom wall:

The LFA Nürburgring Edition.

I would have bought a 2012 250SX, but the dealers have only gotten one in so far and they're all gone (my Super Duke dealer sold it before they could get it out of the crate).  There's 5-deep waiting lists everywhere and supposedly only 2 more are coming to each dealer in Oct, maybe.  Plenty of 2011 350SXFs to be had, guess they figure they can force people to buy the fart machines collecting dust by underdelivering 2 strokes.  I'm not buying.

KTM, you lost a sale because you won't build enough 2 strokes, congrats.  I saved a pile of money and fell in love with the new RM at the track yesterday, so it's all good.  Night and day compared to Old Yeller, my '97 RM.

[factoryX]

And who in their right minds would buy a $445,000 toyota? You can buy a 200mph corvette for $100,000 with 638hp...

[Mountain Goat]

Somebody with a lot of money?  People that can afford the 150,000 euro initiation fee and 10,000/year to join something like the Ascari Race country club in Spain that offers helicopter service to your trackside villa with an attached garage for your million-dollar Saleen:


Anyway, the point was that Japan can make cars that beat Ferraris and Lambos.  And there's more to performance cars than hp.  I love Vettes, but the LFA smokes a ZR1 in just about everything.