Two Stroke Motocross
Two Stroke Motocross Forum => General Two Stroke Talk => Topic started by: ford832 on August 21, 2011, 04:54:06 PM
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http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=0B473EF8D2EE4E5F8760A179556F8C5C (http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=0B473EF8D2EE4E5F8760A179556F8C5C)
http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=0450920560F048CFBE752D2EB8F773E4 (http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=0450920560F048CFBE752D2EB8F773E4)
Five 2t's in the top five for the Jackpine.That's not too shabby. 8)
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Not to bad at all. ;D
2 strokes have made a massive resurgence in off-road racing the last few years.
Remind me ford, Are any of those bikes Japanese ? ::) ;)
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Nice.
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Our own D-Watson took 1st Friday in the 250A class and a 2nd on Saturday in Pro 2 lites at this weekends round of WORCS in Washougal Washington... 2005 yz250... TWOSTROKE!
Just Saying....
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:D
Our own D-Watson took 1st Friday in the 250A class and a 2nd on Saturday in Pro 2 lites at this weekends round of WORCS in Washougal Washington... 2005 yz250... TWOSTROKE!
Just Saying....
Thats awesome
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Our own D-Watson took 1st Friday in the 250A class and a 2nd on Saturday in Pro 2 lites at this weekends round of WORCS in Washougal Washington... 2005 yz250... TWOSTROKE!
Just Saying....
Sweeeeetttttt.Congrats Watson 8) Now then,the link to the helmet cam footage would be............ :)
I used to love Jonathan Belles but the last few times I tried,I couldn't download them.
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Not to bad at all. ;D
2 strokes have made a massive resurgence in off-road racing the last few years.
Remind me ford, Are any of those bikes Japanese ? ::) ;)
Geez,I don't really know TMKIWI.Are any of them Italian? :P
If by Japanese you mean many of the parts they use or the machines they copied,then they all are. :D
The better question might be,where are the Maico's ? ;D Tee.hee,hee.Just had to throw that out there as it's been awhile.The Maico faithful seem to be oddly silent these days ;)
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Was just pointing out the fact that the Japs have dropped the ball when it comes to 2 stroke development. :(
Whilst the Euros are continuing development. ;D
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Excellent news.Anyone want guess how 2T Husabergs will sell here in North America?
Ford, as an act of kindness we at the world Maico command centre have removed all references to Maico from entering your hamlet.We thought it only fair that you live out your days comfortable with your delusions. ;D
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Was just pointing out the fact that the Japs have dropped the ball when it comes to 2 stroke development. :(
Whilst the Euros are continuing development. ;D
Lol,yeah,I know.Yamaha could have something in the works,they did it before with the YZF's. The YZ's are as modern as any 2t out there right now but the plastic keeps them looking dated.
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We thought it only fair that you live out your days comfortable with your delusions. ;D
And I appreciate it.It looks like I may finally be able to remove my tinfoil hat 8)
I'm betting the Bergs do well.There is already a fair amount of interest around here.My local shop got one in last week but I haven't yet found the time to get in.
In the same way as the Berg 4t's,they are the same as the KTM's-only different.Suspension is different as are a few other things.Just enough so you can't say it's just a KTM in a disguise.
I like the colors as well-sort of like a reverse RM.
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The YZ's are as modern as any 2t out there right now but the plastic keeps them looking dated.
Really ? :o
NO, 0 , Nadda , Zip updates since 06.
While it is a good bike the euro brands have had more done to them just updated plastics.
Just saying.
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The YZ's are as modern as any 2t out there right now but the plastic keeps them looking dated.
The 2012 ktm 250 puts out about 3-4 horses more than the frozen in 2000 "2012" yz 250
seems more than plastics have been getting updates over the last 12 years,
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The YZ's are as modern as any 2t out there right now but the plastic keeps them looking dated.
Really ? :o
NO, 0 , Nadda , Zip updates since 06.
While it is a good bike the euro brands have had more done to them just updated plastics.
Just saying.
Like what for instance?Though not updated,the Yamaha is still recognized as having the best suspension in the biz hands down.As far as everything else on the bikes go,what have the Euro's come up with technology wise,or in any other area that the Yamaha's don't have?I'm willing to admit something is better if it is,and I'm not a Yamaha fanboy,I just don't see anything new as compared to a YZ-or an old CR,KX or RM for that matter.
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The YZ's are as modern as any 2t out there right now but the plastic keeps them looking dated.
The 2012 ktm 250 puts out about 3-4 horses more than the frozen in 2000 "2012" yz 250
seems more than plastics have been getting updates over the last 12 years,
KTM's have always had the motor of doom.My 125 SX put out more 2 more HP than the Jap 125's in 02.My buddys 03 250 SX had the most HP of any 250 of any year stock if I remember correctly.In subsequent years they toned it down as it was almost unrideable.
They were usually making the most HP back then and since.Nothing has changed and it's not because of any any new 2t euro technology.If you can give an example of their magic widget,I'll eat my words :)
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Technology wise the Euros have had frame updates, Engine updates (Heads,Porting etc ), Suspension updates etc.
They might not be masive leaps in technology but it all adds up.
You could make the same arguement about 4 strokes as well if you wanted. Apart from EFI what has really changed in 5 years. But a new 4 stroke is a better bike then a 5 year old one.
The other problem lately is the only back to back tests done in magazines is between the KTM & YZ, & most mags don't like the PDS.
As I said while a good bike ( The YZ ) I think Yamaha are taking the piss on charging 2011 prices for a 2006 bike. They are making a killing.
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Those type of small upgrades are typical of normal model year changes.Granted,Yamaha could likely get another pony or two if they continued development but realistically,any of the 250's have all the power your normal non-pro consumer could handle-and have been that way for the past 10 yrs-that's why for that time,manufacturers skewed the power around but never went after more-just better delivery.As far as suspension improvements go,any of the euros are still chasing 5 yr old yamaha stuff.There's nothing wrong with PDS,KTM just can't build suspension.Their linkage bikes prove it.More accurately,WP can't build suspension.
The YZ engine is certainly at the end of it's cycle so maybe something new is in the pipe-or maybe it will just go away-I'm betting Yamaha has a DI coming.
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agree with Ford. The euro's are only catching up to the YZ now. As far as the KTM engine goes, they come standard with a V3 reed block and there is probably a bit more attention to the ports and pipe from the factory but i dont think it would be hard to make a YZ go like a KTM and you dont have to spend money on valving or springs in the suspension of the YZ.
Apparently the chassis on the ktm is a lot better so if ktm can get the suspension sorted they will have a winner
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The point I was trying to make was I would be quite happy to buy an 06" YZ and spend some money on it to rebuild it.
But I would not spend any money on a new one.
For a new bike my money will be going to GG/TM or Husky ( I like their new CR125 which here, comes with a free 150cc Kit ).
Or for the price a RM250.
My beef with Yamaha is charging new prices for an old bike.
You can buy a new RM here for $2500 cheaper then a YZ. :o
That difference gives you alot of spare cash to bling up or Modify a bike which is pretty good as well.
Now if Yamaha released something like this, Well ;D
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/tmkiwi/full17598257.jpg)
Yamaha rant over.
Tommorrow HONDA. ;)
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Yeah same deal with rm's over here.2 grand cheaper than yz. If yamaha did make a yz like that they wouldn't sell any four strokes, tis an awesome lookin bike
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I'd go with any euro bike over a jap bike anyday, the quality difference is astonishing. I just rode a husky cr125 the other day, I almost wished I had picked up one instead of the yz.
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The 2012 ktm 250 puts out about 3-4 horses more than the frozen in 2000 "2012" yz 250
seems more than plastics have been getting updates over the last 12 years,
I'm not arguing. Yamaha has been resting on their laurels. I'd just like to point out though that Yamaha has a heavy double wall pipe. Whereas the Ktoom has an FMF (or somesuch aftermarket). Don't you think that might be good for a couple of ponies?
Sure the Yamaha has dated plastic but how many folks have the stock graphics anyway? With the fixed sytle, there are more options for replacement colors and sticker kits readily available. Companies don't have to "create new" each year because they changed a mounting point.
None of it makes you go faster anyway. I always pealed any sticker that they were not "paying me for" anyway.
Although now with the vintage stuff, I tire of saying "It's a Can-Am. It's made in Canada. It's fast."
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I always love the Can-Am rotary engines. I rode a friend's father's 1980 350 (actually it was only a 273 but they called it a 350) back when it was new. That had the best engine I have ever ridden for nasty, snotty Northeastern Enduros to this day - kind of like a KDX200 motor on steroids! Now, the drum brakes, 35mm Marzocci forks and dual Girling shocks were a different story.....
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As far as Can Am goes, who knows what is going on at the Valcourt,Quebec factory right now?
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I always love the Can-Am rotary engines...
Me too. I loved my 1980 250 Qualifier and raced several MX's with it and placed top 5. Could have done better with more love though. There was always something I overlooked and needed fixing.
Now, the drum brakes, 35mm Marzocci forks and dual Girling shocks were a different story...
Eh yeah but all vintage bikes are that way though. Their suspensions and brakes were no worse than anyone elses.
As far as Can Am goes, who knows what is going on at the Valcourt,Quebec factory right now?
We can only dream...MX7 with rotory, electric start and DI? 8)
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As far as Can Am goes, who knows what is going on at the Valcourt,Quebec factory right now?
I was at a BRP conference in Australia 4 years ago and there was hushed talk of a 2 wheeler. :-X
No one would confirm or deny. But I got the feeling something was on.
Then the economy tanked. :(
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What kinda pipe is that in that YZ with the conversion kit?
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I'd go with any euro bike over a jap bike anyday, the quality difference is astonishing. I just rode a husky cr125 the other day, I almost wished I had picked up one instead of the yz.
Don't confuse stock equipment with quality.My euros all came with better bars,chains etc than the cheesy ones the japs put on,but the overall quality of the bike wasn't up to japanese.All the euros took fiddling,frigging and a measure of re-engineering to get things as they should of been in the first place.Once done,they were great-but I still had to do it.
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My 05 yz was awesome. Ill admit I havent rode any of the newer 2 strokes so I cant say its better. But it was a sweet bike...atleast everywere except a flat corner.
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Don't confuse stock equipment with quality.My euros all came with better bars,chains etc than the cheesy ones the japs put on,but the overall quality of the bike wasn't up to japanese.All the euros took fiddling,frigging and a measure of re-engineering to get things as they should of been in the first place.Once done,they were great-but I still had to do it.
Ohh ford. :( We must get you into the 21st century. ;)
They have certainly improved over the last 5 years.
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Lol,I doubt it.Euro is,and always has been Euro-and always will be.That's a strength in some ways-and a weakness in others.
Now then,when does the Honda rant start.There's a topic I can sink my teeth into. :D
As far as getting into the 21st century goes,I find the older I get,the more stuck in the past I become :o
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...please make the HONDA rant a new thread. I'm sure it'll make 10+ pages!
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TeamGreen over at Vital posted some info on the KTM. I'd bet a done up Yamaha still won't keep up hp wise. He posted that a pipe builder is running 55 hp out of a 2012 KTM 250SX. That is impressive alone, but added that the bottom end can be made to have torque that compares to the 4 strokers. I think some of you who have rode old KTM's are trying to compare that to a 06 or newer Yamaha. It ain't the same bike :-)
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Ok this is starting to go around in circles.
To recap.
The reason you see so many orange , Red & White (GG) & blue (Husaberg) in off road races is they are made for that sort of racing. The Japs have droped the ball. (This is where the thread started). Fact.
(Last year Yamaha made Paul Whibley ride a WR450 in the GNCC's and it was such a pig the team had to revert to a YZF mid season). Now most of his competition are on smokers.
The YZ is a great MX machine that can be converted to the woods.
For the last few years the only 250 2/S shootouts that have been done are between the YZ & KTM because that is all the USA gets. As I said some testers have had a love/hate relationship with PDS. Some other countries are lucky that we get a bigger choice.
Now there are not as many 250's around as there was, but there still is quite a few 125's. Since the 125/250's run the same chassis I would love to see a test done between:
TM 125 , SX 125 , YZ 125 , RM 125 , CR 125 ( Husky). If some one has please tell me.
Let the best bike win. At least that will give the punters a fair comparison.
I am glad Yamaha are still selling the YZ but, Stop taking the piss with trying to tell us it is a 2011 model.
At least Suzuki are selling the RM as a 08' and is priced accordingly.
( I read from a reputable source ( His son rides for Yamaha) that the YZ tooling is so worn that the squish can be up to 1mm out, out of the box ) :(
...please make the HONDA rant a new thread. I'm sure it'll make 10+ pages!
That ship has sailed. ;)
There was a good one last year.
I was taking the piss. :P
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TeamGreen over at Vital posted some info on the KTM. I'd bet a done up Yamaha still won't keep up hp wise. He posted that a pipe builder is running 55 hp out of a 2012 KTM 250SX. That is impressive alone, but added that the bottom end can be made to have torque that compares to the 4 strokers. I think some of you who have rode old KTM's are trying to compare that to a 06 or newer Yamaha. It ain't the same bike :-)
The newest I've ridden was a 2010 250XC.I haven't ridden the SX.The XC was impressive and tight but I honestly didn't notice a great deal of difference from any other well tuned 250 I've ridden,regardless of brand.Honestly,I notice suspension deficiencies before I notice power issues,unless it's extreme one way or the other.
Admit it TMKIWI,you're just upset that an old design YZ is superior to that silly TM :P ;)
As for the tooling thing,it could be but I know production tolerance can be off a fair bit even when it's not old.When I knocked the timing back on the YZ,it was set on the mark but the mark was 1 degree advanced over what the spec was.
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I think Yamaha does the same to the YZ's as with their Banshee's.
They have been around for ages now, but without big revolutionairy changes.
It just proves, in my opinion at least, that these were both good designs in the frist place.
And a good product doesn't need many radical changes.
Altho it's a shamefull scandal that they still continue to rise the prices for that same old bike...
It's weird to see how Americans comlain about beeing stuck in the Japanese big OEM dominance regime,
yet they are still very reluctant towards their possible resque ticket,
the new 2 stroke Euro bikes wich they should support en masse to make any kind of statement or change...
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It's weird to see how Americans comlain about beeing stuck in the Japanese big OEM dominance regime,
yet they are still very reluctant towards their possible resque ticket,
the new 2 stroke Euro bikes wich they should support en masse to make any kind of statement or change...
Ahmen to that. ;D
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Ford, look for a milk crate because if you stand on it you should just be able to see out of that Yamaha rut you are in. Now focus your eyes on that Husaberg 2T off in the distance and admit you want one. ;D
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Actually,I'd like to have to the Berg.As much as I liked all my Euro's-and I did,whenever I got on my riding buddies Honda's and Yamaha's I always thought-Crap,I wished my suspension worked like that.It's not enough to stop me from buying one,but it bothered me.That said,these days as my riding ability falls away,suspension performance wouldn't be as critical as it once was.
I'd try the milk crate thing but I don't think my knees would bend well enough to get up on it. :( :D
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It's weird to see how Americans comlain about beeing stuck in the Japanese big OEM dominance regime,
yet they are still very reluctant towards their possible resque ticket,
the new 2 stroke Euro bikes wich they should support en masse to make any kind of statement or change...
When I bought my Berg,they were priced $3000 more than a Jap bike(I bought a two year leftover and saved 2500)My KTM 125's were 1000-1500 more than a YZ or RM.If you can buy pretty much the same thing cheaper,most will do just that.
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My brother and I had a discussion the other day about the price of ktms and as far as motocross goes the extra money you pay doesn't result in better lap times. We both agreed that while things like hydraulic clutches and brembo brakes are nice they really don't justify the extra price tag. There isn't a lot of difference in price between them and the japs but even $500 is 5 rear tyres.
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I thought the KTM's were cheaper than the YZ's in the US?
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I'm in Australia. There is only $500 difference in dealer prices but yamaha will do deals, Ktm not so much
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(http://i56.tinypic.com/154a5fl.jpg)
Look at the pics and tell me that there is not a quality difference between stock Jap bikes and European bikes.
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looking at those photo's the euro's definitely look better but those jap bikes haven't been updated for years, the rm has been that shape since 01.
the euro's carry names like marzocchi but i have never read a review where the yz's forks were beaten, even the rm is as good or better than the rest. the ohlins equipped gg and tm are a step above the japs but as an overall package all the big name products dont seem to make much of a difference.
its kind of like the euro's throw all the top end, exotic parts on but dont necessarily match them together that well where as the japs use what they know and put together a very good all round package.
i am talking motocross here too, for offroad you wouldnt even consider a jap bike, they dont make any
i think that is the biggest difference here is it has taken this many years of the japs being stagnant for the euro's to catch up.
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Well,looking at the pics I can definitely see a quality difference-of the pictures.Once again,updated body work,pretty graphics,better add ons etc have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of a machine.The euros make some pretty bikes-and some very good ones-but,with a few exceptions,you'll look long and hard to be able to beat Japanese overall machine quality.Whether bikes,cars,boats,industrial machinery etc,it's all the same.
I like mx and love practicing on mx tracks but I primarily do off road/hare scrambles.The YZ is very easily set up for this,as are others.
Many people seem to think KTM's etc are the magic bullet out of the box for off road but it's simply not true.Any Jap bike is a suspension revalve(something most KTM's need anyway) and a flywheel weight away from being an equal woods mount.Having owned both,I just don't see much difference-with the exception of much better suspension the YZ.
For the record,WP's PDS suspension system is an Ohlins design licensed to WP.Anyone hazard a guess as to who owns Ohlins?
If you guessed Yamaha,you'd be right.How's a little Jap suspension on those Gassers and TM's for you. :D
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I'm sorry Ford but things are busy back in the Fatherland. Germany is the world's largest manufacturer of machinery, Mercedes Benz, Audi, BMW and Porsche have decimated their Japanese competition, Volkswagen has or soon will (depending how you calculate) displace Toyota as the number 1 auto manufacturer, MB is either 1 or 2 in truck manufacturing and BMW motorcycle sales growth figures are far in excess of the Japanese (try to buy their new 1000cc sportbike). There is a reason for this - quality.
I've owned and raced both Euro and Japanese bikes and the Euro bikes are definitely higher quality.The engine castings contain less impurities, the Euros have true chrome moly frames, Maico pistons last at least three times as long as Japanese pistons and the Euro suspension components are of a higher quality,When I purchased my Maico 380 it was lighter,more powerful,had better brakes and handled better then anything the Japanese had to offer at the time.
The WP PDS rear shock operates on an entirely different principle then the Ohlins counterpart.When Yamaha purchased Ohlins, Ohlins technology began to appear in Japanese suspension - if you don't believe me check out any mid 80's YZ. So actually the opposite is true of what you say. Ohlins revolutionized Japanese suspension.
KTM has trounced the Japanese in offroad competition - that is why any starting line is a sea of orange.If you think you think your YZ is a revalve and a flywheel weight away from matching the latest Euros, I think you are mistaken.Before you attempt to argue otherwise,ride a new TM for example, things are a changing.
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The point I was trying to make was I would be quite happy to buy an 06" YZ and spend some money on it to rebuild it.
But I would not spend any money on a new one.
For a new bike my money will be going to GG/TM or Husky ( I like their new CR125 which here, comes with a free 150cc Kit ).
Or for the price a RM250.
My beef with Yamaha is charging new prices for an old bike.
You can buy a new RM here for $2500 cheaper then a YZ. :o
That difference gives you alot of spare cash to bling up or Modify a bike which is pretty good as well.
Now if Yamaha released something like this, Well ;D
That YZ-250 that I'm looking at is a piece of art!!! It's really a GREAT looking bike & you can never go wrong with the color scheme of black,red,white! It just makes the ride look so damn wicked >:-D I just realized something after checking that YZ-250 out and what I realized is I thought or was told that Maico was bringing out an Enduro bike also. Has anybody got to see the British Maico Enduro bikes yet??? ANYBODY!?!? Me either so I decided to just keep lovin' & ridin' the pretty sick bike that I bought last May.....The KTM-300xc that I've wanted for sooo many years and Thanks to Coop for leading me in the right direction to get the beast!!!!!! :) :D ;D ;) ;)
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Yamaha has sold it's shares in Ohlins back to Ohlins.
I think they only had 15% anyway.
Starting to clutch at straws I think. :-X
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Talking about Yamaha............
Was just watching the Indy GP qualifying and the Yamaha's off Spies & Lorenzo are in the old school White/Red colours.
They look bloody good. ;D
Why did Yamaha change ? Anyone know.
It was always:
Honda= Red
Suzuki= Yellow
Kawasaki= Green
Yamaha Europe= White/Red
Yamaha USA= Yellow/Black.
How did they come up with Blue.?
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Yellow was taken and blue was available.
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Sorry sachs but I think you're slightly misinformed.Sales figures in Europe don't mean anything here as it is an entirely different market with entirely different vehicles in many cases.Comparing a maico of years gone by to present day is somewhat irrelevant.
I was VW faithful for years.From my Superbeetle to Fox GTS to various incarnations of GTI's and Wolfsburgs,I though they were great-and they were-the big downhill slide started around '96.These days,I wouldn't touch one with a 10 ft pole.
BMW cars are a an ungodly,thundering pos.Astounding for their poor quality and abominable fit and finish,their only claim to fame is a being immensely overpriced.As for the BMW bikes,I couldn't say though I've heard good reports.
I had 3 old MB's and they were all good.Present day,from the ones I've worked on I'd say that's still largely the case.
Audi's are the same as VW's and some platforms are identical with different bodies(A4's and Passats for instance)so the same evaluation applies.
If you want to test present day VW quality,walk in to any dealer and while talking to the salesman,lean your butt against the front fender.
Our local dealer is kept busy running to the body shop.The result looks like you took a maul to it.
MY KTM's and Berg did have better quality metal for sure.I always thought maybe the jap stuff was recycled but I don't know that.
Polished jap aluminum looks funky but polished euro looks deep and even.
My point with the Ohlins is that the euros often use jap parts if they feel it is the best available-and I always felt that was one of their strengths.Would you really rather KTM trash their Kokusan ignitions for SEM's?
For what it's worth,for a 2 year hiatus from mechanics I worked on machinery at a manufacturing facility.It was all German stuff-and typical.Very good in some ways and ridiculously poor in others.
What I am still trying unsuccessfully to get across is the difference in build quality-not the parts that are put on or blinginess of some of the materials.The actual build quality of the machine.My EXC pissed fork oil from day one,my SX mud guard wore a big groove in the lower shock boss,my berg chain wore a big groove in the frame my first ride.There are many other examples on each of those but those are the first that come to mind.My buddies that ride current euros deal with similar things.I can't speak for the 11's though.
As for the new,revolutionary off road 2t's,I haven't seen them yet.Granted,there are many I haven't seen but I would be interested in someone telling me new technology or bits they use that make them so superior.
Oh yeah,WP and Ohlins are exactly the same principle.WP has simply altered the design year after year in an effort to get rid of the harshness.
Oops,gotta run.F1 comes on in 2 min......
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I was quoting global sales figures.MB sells more luxury cars in Canada then all the Japanese combined.Times two. With respect to quality control it is the Japanese making headlines with automotive recalls.BMW is the most profitable car company on this planet.Audi is one of the fastest growing brands globally.I have a friend who is a Toyoata/Mazda/Honda service and warranty technician. He said some of the new Hondas are so cheap they don't use inner fender liners anymore.His Toyota Tundra pickup leaked so bad he couldn't take it through a car wash.He bought a Chevy pickup.
Not only have I maintained machinery I have designed it.Go to Japan (and China) and see what is in use there. It is German technology building those shiny new aluminum frames for example.
Design wise my Maico is newer then your Yamaha.I suspect Ford it is you who can't (or is unwilling) to grasp concepts.My Suzuki blew shocks from day one,the discs wore out overnight,my friend's Yamaha blew gearboxes and the Kawasakis broke everything.I will give the Hondas high marks for their durability but they have their turkeys too.
The new Euro bikes are simply newer machines then your Yamaha.
The Euros use Japanese components for North American bound bikes because that is what the U.S. mags harp about.You know that Ford.My SEM and PVL systems are at least as reliable as the Japanese stuff (don't forget my business repaired many bikes each year.).
You are right, the WP and Ohlins non mechanical linkage systems are based on the same principal - the rear suspension geometry of a 79 RM.Beyond that they are different.
The reality is that the Japanese have abandoned the two stroke offroad motorcycle.The Euros have not and it is beginning to show. ;D
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It's hardly surprising MB sells more luxury cars-that's all they sell and if you're in that upscale market,that's what you buy for prestige,if for no other reason.I'm not surprised BMW is so profitable.Their cars are made of cheap sh!t and they charge max $$ for them.Oddly,people still buy in to the name.
The Japanese are making headlines with recalls(headlines have no correlation to numbers btw.).Toyota's runaway throttle issue turned out to be nonexistent(interstingly,this fact wasn't widely reported).Somebody had a floormat or something jammed up and everyone else jumped on the bandwagon to try to make some$$
Toyota started replacing assemblies as a goodwill thing even though nothing was wrong.
The US gov't absolutely crucified them over this.Interesting how the US gov't owned GM at this point as they were almost out of business.How great would it be to be able to legislate massive hardship and huge $$ loss for one of your competitors?GM had then and currently has many serious recalls and yet the common person never hears about them on the news-I wonder why that is.I wish your GM truck buddy luck-and$$'s- he'll need both.
You will have lemons in every vehicle but Toyota and other Japanese cars have only a fraction of American and Euro recalls and TSB's.Auto wise at least,that's fact.I wish I could somehow link to our recall info at work.
If everyone of our customers drove a Toyota,I'd be out of a job.
You say euro bikes headed for the us get jap parts because that's what we want-not because they're better?What does the rest of the world get-do the home market KTM's get SEM's?Yeah,right.
I've got more but the Hurricane is coming.I need to batten down the hatches before the MotoGP race comes on-I think it's early this afternoon.....
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What about passion and Soul.?
No one would argue that the Japanese build reliable Cars & Bikes.
But do any of them have a soul.?
If everybody purchased based on reliability there would be no companies left like:
Ferrari/Lamborghini/Maserati or Ducati/Moto Guzzi/Husqvarna.
None of the above would have made it out of the 80's. :(
All the kids had Ferrari/Lamborghini posters above their beds, Not Toyota.
Some of the Euro bikes might have some quirks about them but the design and performance of them is what makes people buy them.
Reading on forums there doesn't seem to be too many issues these days with any of the Euro bikes.
CRF valve issues, Well you could write a book. ( And Honda's are supposed to be the best. ::))
I am glad we have a choice.
Some people prefer buying based on what their head say's , Some with their heart.
That would be a sad day if all we could buy was a Honda Civic & a CT110. :'(
Both will outlast everything on the planet but the human race would be extinct, because we would have all killed ourselves. ;D
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Toughest rear shock built - Rieger.
Best brakes - Brembos.
Superb fork - Ohlins.
Shall I go on? :-*
When I was very young a friend of my father gave me a 1966 Ducati Mach One 250.The little Duc had clip ons,rear sets,was fire engine red,a cafe racer seat,megaphone exhaust and the 4 lobe desmo cam among other things. I knew nothing about motorcycles yet, instinctively, I knew this piece of machinery was very,very special.I still own the Ducati but have sold every Japanese bike I have ever had.I wonder why that is so?
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...back to the subject...
Did you see the top 10 starting pros at the national enduro in Pa? The first thumper was 10 rows back. Everyone has switch to 2T's and the new 'bergs ran away with it!
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What about passion and Soul.?
No one would argue that the Japanese build reliable Cars & Bikes.
But do any of them have a soul.?
If everybody purchased based on reliability there would be no companies left like:
Ferrari/Lamborghini/Maserati or Ducati/Moto Guzzi/Husqvarna.
None of the above would have made it out of the 80's. :(
All the kids had Ferrari/Lamborghini posters above their beds, Not Toyota.
Some of the Euro bikes might have some quirks about them but the design and performance of them is what makes people buy them.
Reading on forums there doesn't seem to be too many issues these days with any of the Euro bikes.
CRF valve issues, Well you could write a book. ( And Honda's are supposed to be the best. ::))
I am glad we have a choice.
Some people prefer buying based on what their head say's , Some with their heart.
That would be a sad day if all we could buy was a Honda Civic & a CT110. :'(
Both will outlast everything on the planet but the human race would be extinct, because we would have all killed ourselves. ;D
The cherry, nearly-new '08 RM250 I bought this weekend has a soul. Pissed-off hornet.
Here's a 200mph+ $445,000 560hp V10 (that can rev to redline in .6 seconds) Toyota, with a 3.6sec-to-60 for your bedroom wall:
(http://images.smh.com.au/2010/06/03/1541253/lexus-supercar_1_600-600x400.jpg)
The LFA Nürburgring Edition.
I would have bought a 2012 250SX, but the dealers have only gotten one in so far and they're all gone (my Super Duke dealer sold it before they could get it out of the crate). There's 5-deep waiting lists everywhere and supposedly only 2 more are coming to each dealer in Oct, maybe. Plenty of 2011 350SXFs to be had, guess they figure they can force people to buy the fart machines collecting dust by underdelivering 2 strokes. I'm not buying.
KTM, you lost a sale because you won't build enough 2 strokes, congrats. I saved a pile of money and fell in love with the new RM at the track yesterday, so it's all good. Night and day compared to Old Yeller, my '97 RM.
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And who in their right minds would buy a $445,000 toyota? You can buy a 200mph corvette for $100,000 with 638hp...
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Somebody with a lot of money? People that can afford the 150,000 euro initiation fee and 10,000/year to join something like the Ascari Race country club in Spain that offers helicopter service to your trackside villa with an attached garage for your million-dollar Saleen:
(http://www.ascari.net/images/ascari_racing_packages.jpg)
Anyway, the point was that Japan can make cars that beat Ferraris and Lambos. And there's more to performance cars than hp. I love Vettes, but the LFA smokes a ZR1 in just about everything.
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Anyway, the point was that Japan can make cars that beat Ferraris and Lambos. And there's more to performance cars than hp.
Agreed.
But not many of them have a soul.
There are not many Japanese cars that have or will become classics in the eyes of collectors.
Datsun 240Z being 1 of the few and Nissan GTR ( Godzilla ) will/is another.
The GTR is a thinking mans performance car.
It is quicker around The Nurburgring then a Zonda or Maserati MC12. At 1/3 of the price.
Cars/Bikes have to earn a pedigree, that can not be limited to just performance figures.
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Anyway, the point was that Japan can make cars that beat Ferraris and Lambos. And there's more to performance cars than hp.
I agree and disagree, it depends on the individuals perception of a performance car, i love drag racing so an ideal performance car is one that runs a 1/4 mile with the lowest ET so in that case id only be concerned with HP torque and weight, not handling, braking, etc. Just my opinion
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I forget the name or specs. of the car,but during the late 60's or early 70's Toyota built a high performance/limited production sports car.
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(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab207/tmkiwi/800px-TOYOTA_2000GT.jpg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_2000GT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_2000GT)
Toyota 2000GT.
They only made 337 of them.
Strange they didn't put it into production like the 240Z. That went pretty well for Datsun. ;)
Nice looking car.
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What about passion and Soul.?
No one would argue that the Japanese build reliable Cars & Bikes.
Sachs would :D
I agree about the soul thing though.Of all my ridiing buddies,I was always the Euro guy,despite my current ride.90% of my rides over the last 15 years have been Euro.
I like my YZ,and the new ones are supposed to be even better,but if I was bike shopping tomorrow,either a Berg,Husky,TM or GasGas would be taking up residence right now.I also realize the YZ is superior to all of these in may wayand in some ways not.
Of all the bikes I lust after,the vast majority are Euro.Certain bikes just seem to talk to me.
Somewhat like a friends old BSA Rocket he stored at my place years ago.I had lots of work I wanted to do on my Interceptor that winter but I couldn't pull myself away from his BSA.By spring,I'd done nothing to my bike but had religiously cleaned,adjusted,polished,frigged and farted with his Rocket.
Regardless,the fact I lean that way doesn't make me blind to their many issue,idiosycnhrasies and foibles as it does some.I see them for what they are and go into purchases knowing it-and many times wish they had more of a Japanese-like build quality.
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Toughest rear shock built - Rieger.
Best brakes - Brembos.
Superb fork - Ohlins.
Shall I go on? :-*
Please do.I've never seen a bike consisting of only a Ohlins fork,Reiger shock and Brembo brake system but I'd be interested in knowing if there was anything else on that bike. :D
BTW,I've had 3 Brembo sets and none were as good as the YZ's :)
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The 240Z was the product of a German designer.
Alas Ford, I agree the Japanese build very high quality,very reliable products.I loved my Mazda B2200 pickup,but why it still had a carb in 1989 I'll never know. It has been said that the Japanese motorcycle was a superior design built with inferior materials where as the British industry built bikes with less then perfect engineering but superior materials and we all know what happened there. As someone who has sold hundreds of vintage motorcycles this became very apparent - how do you define quality and reliability, in the short term or the long term (and I mean LONG term)? I could drag an old British bike out of a barn and soon the sand cast cases and stainless steel were glistening like new.The Japanese bike on the other hand,the rotted pipes would fall off as soon as I moved the bike,the cases white with oxidation.
The latest Brembos have power that the Japanese can only dream about.
I loved the old Husabergs,warts and all,because they looked like what they were - a works bike.As someone with a background in engineering design and manufacturing the Japanese bikes to me revealed the compromises of their designers - they were engineered to be profitable at a certain price and a certain volume.The stamped frames with a myriad of bent tubes (bent tubes have no strength) ,oversize clutches (light pull),huge cast gearboxes (cheap),purpose compromised by styling to appeal to the masses - the list goes on.You see Ford, the whole thing is subjective and open to interpretation, my Maico's quality,uniqueness and performance as a woods bike is a level above the Japanese bikes,in my opinion.For my application,my Maico is the superior tool - that is why I bought it.
As previously stated,the Japanese motorcycle industry produces high quality motorcycles defined by good value for the price.But demonstratedly superior to the European product? Not a chance.
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We're not as far apart as you might think Sachs.I've always thought a Euro bike re-engineered and built by the Japs would be the cat's arse.
I loved my Berg as well.It came down to that or an RM250 but the berg spoke to me.Having said that,despite the appeal if the industrial,russian farm tractor,all business look to it that I liked,previous to 05 they were ticking time bombs prone to catastrophic failure-and I wouldn't have touched one.Looks,superior materials etc mean squat when pieces come flying out or it refuses to work properly.By 05 they still had many issues that needed to be ironed out by the owner or sympathetic dealer but for the most part,after some work,they were reliable and a fine steed.
What I have been talking about all along,and still am,is build quality.Yes,I know Jap pipes rotted,brit metal lasted(possibly due in part to massive self-generated oil based undercoating) and all that,but we all know what happened to the Brits and Japs way back when-psychotic conspiracy theories aside of course.
I also appreciate something unique and am willing to forgive a reasonable amount to get it and therefore fully understand you owning your Maico.For many however,they want and require something that works out of the box-without a major time or money commitment and aren't willing to have to work,or pay for someone else to work on a brand new machine.
Fortunately for many manufacturers,bikers are an odd sort.Few would buy a new car and forgive what many forgive with a new bike.
Having said all that,in recent years my free time becomes more and more strained and I greatly appreciate and admire the fact that my not special or exotic,plain jane,run of the mill,same as everybody else has YZ250 asks nothing of me at all other than to add gas,kick and ride.It always works-and works well,requires almost no care and feeding,no modification or fiddling other than to set it up how I like it and forget it.It's well thought out,perfected and engineered.The metal may not polish up as good as some but nowadays,it's lucky if it gets swiped off,let alone polished up.
Euros appeal to me on an emotional level,Japanese on a practical level.These days,practicality wins-and it still trips my trigger when I ride it.
As for the Brembo brake,all three of my Brembo sytems had more power than the YZ.They locked front and rear both with just the twitch of a finger or toe.I can lock the YZ easily as well-but I can also modulate it and drag the brake a little,trail brake a little harder,or put it on the point of locking up but not quite.A monkey can build a brake system that locks solid with little lever pressure but it takes a little more ability to design a well functioning system.If you're more of a straight line,good traction rider,the Brembo's would likely seem quite amazing-for me and my riding,they weren't.
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Potent brakes. must be nice. My old early '70s drum brakes are anti-lock all the way. When I attempted the Virginia City Grand Prix with my SC500 last year (with only a handful of hours on it after a resurrection from an 1985 blow up) it handled a slippy downhill that had a good 30% of the modern bike riders crashing with locked front wheels. Of course my right arm was pumped pretty good at the bottom ;D
As for the Brembo brake,all three of my Brembo sytems had more power than the YZ.They locked front and rear both with just the twitch of a finger or toe.I can lock the YZ easily as well-but I can also modulate it and drag the brake a little,trail brake a little harder,or put it on the point of locking up but not quite.A monkey can build a brake system that locks solid with little lever pressure but it takes a little more ability to design a well functioning system.If you're more of a straight line,good traction rider,the Brembo's would likely seem quite amazing-for me and my riding,they weren't.
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All I have had to do to my TM in 2 years is 1 Piston @ 120Hours ( which was still in spec ), change gear oil, clean filter. I have also had the Ohlins forks and shock serviced. ( How many people here service their suspension when they should ? )
Bike has done 150 hours now and no brake downs. ;D
I have changed brake pads , sprokets , tyres . The same as you would do on any bike.
Pretty good for a 'quirky' Italian bike. ;D
Did I mention NO brake downs.
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Yeah,maybe,but the again,you don't ride a Maico now do you? ;D
Actually,none of my Euro's have broken down other than my SX which fouled a brand new plug(dud)right after I put it in.
How about the latest Euro,the Berg.Awesome bike,big power but super controllable,light weight for a 4t but.......
The chain wore into the frame badly in my first ride.My cure after repairing it and dishing it in somewhat was to go with an endless chain.
From new they were jetted insanely lean for emissions and tried to compensate by a 3 second pump squirt.This meant it was super lean under throttle but would want to flood out at lower speeds if you were on/off the throttle.The cure was a Lineaweaver jet kit(hand turned needles etc) that does away with the pump.It worked 95% except when you whacked the throttle and then it would bog.I cured that by drilling/tapping the carb body and installing a spring/screw to contact the pump mechanism to get the pump squirt down to a as low as possible(little under a second) while still being functional.
And then there was the filter/vent pipe issues and a few others of course.Once sorted,it was great-but I did have to sort it out.Both KTM's were the same way.The YZ has been similar to yours.Maybe it's a blue thing :D
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The YZ has been similar to yours.Maybe it's a blue thing :D
See if you had bought a TM instead of the Berg you wouldn't have had any problems. ;)
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You could be right.Send me yours and I'll evaluate it :D
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I repaired more then a few early Bergs so I know all about their reliability issues. The Brembos work very well on my Maicos and ,as stated, I prefer them to Japanese issue brakes. My Maicos have been remarkably dependable, similar to the Japanese bikes in the short term and better in the long term. You know that your YZ's rear shock has an anodized aluminum body and when the surface hardening gets scrubbed away the shock is a door stop?
When I finished school I started off racing Japanese makes again, my RM displayed terrible reliabilty and my Honda was much better but the bike and me just didn't "klick".The Kawasakis also had many issues and, having owned Yamahas prior to school, I considered them but ,having ridden friend's WRs and YZs ,decided against them. Considering how good the modern Gassers are and the value for money the Husqvarnas represent, why would I even consider a Yamaha now?
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If all you can find wrong with my Yamaha is the shock body(though mine is fine at 10yrs)I consider that a victory.
Maybe you want a Yamaha so you can ride the benchmark,not a poor imitation that's always shooting at it-and can't hit what is now a stationary target :D
On the other hand,I just came back from my local Yamaha dealer where I was perusing the new 300 Berg in person.Even better looking up close and there are differences from the KTM.It uses bigger forks,is a 6 spd and a few other things.Sweeeeettttt. $8500 Cdn.
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I don't feel like reading the whole thing today. But just thought I'd mention Honda\Acura tried the realm of high sports cars, and the NSX was considered a pretty big failure I think?
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The only failure for the NSX was sales-and price.It supposedly went after the Porsche Carrera and generally equaled or bettered it but....it was almost $20,000 more.The japs have a hard time in this category.If you have the bucks to buy this kind of machinery does it sound more impressive to tell the boys at the polo club you just bought a new Porsche,Ferrari,Lambo...or a Honda?
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You forgot to say that the NSX was as ugly as F**k.
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That too. :D
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The biggest problem with your Yamaha is that it is a Yamaha and I've been there and done that. No thanks. ;D
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Come on Sachs,you can tell me...What kind of Yamaha are you? :D
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The only failure for the NSX was sales-and price.It supposedly went after the Porsche Carrera and generally equaled or bettered it but....it was almost $20,000 more.The japs have a hard time in this category.If you have the bucks to buy this kind of machinery does it sound more impressive to tell the boys at the polo club you just bought a new Porsche,Ferrari,Lambo...or a Honda?
you are probably right.
Interestingly, the series 6 (fd) Rx7 was similar performance wise to the Nsx, and thanks to a retail price which was less than half that of an Nsx, it ended up selling very well.
The Nsx was marketed ad too much of a super car and for that price really needed to be head and shoulders above it's euro competition which it wasn't.
For what's it's worth, I think they look sweet!
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I'm starting to feel like Chief Inspector Dreyfus in an old Pink Panther movie - "Is that Clouseau?".
Switch the word Yamaha for "Clouseau".
Eyebrow starts twitching uncontrollably....... ;)
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Gotta love Peter Sellers.Does your doog bite? :D Hahaha.I think he rode a Yamaha too. ;D