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Offline offroader

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2010, 07:55:04 PM »
I agree with coop.You need to spend quality time on some newer equipmeb=nt to make a real world comparison.A 500 can be more tiring if you are hamfisted with the throttle and not smooth with it.Usually better to ride a gear or two high and let the engine do the work.This will also keep the rear suspension from stiffening up in the chop as you are smoothly rolling on the power making it easier on the body.


Offline TMKIWI

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2010, 08:35:03 PM »
Posted by: JETZcorp 
Insert Quote
Maybe it's not the bike so much as the pace.  For example, let's say you're riding with someone and there's a big hill coming up.  Even a very minor difference in bike, like between a 390 Husky and 430 Husky is going to make a big difference in how you shift and get on the power in order to keep up.  And if you want to kick the back end out and slide a turn, you can do it easily on a big-bore, do it with some effort and caution on a 250, and forget about it on a 125.  On slow and technical stuff perhaps you'd want the light weight and mellow power, but my experience has been that the bigger bike will let you take things much more slowly and give you time to think about what you're doing, rather than going bonsai like a 250.

 
I never found a hill i coudnt get up on my 250.Even the short time i spent on my KTM200 i could tell that that bike would have been an orsome woods bike.
Anywho, Do you know what that lever on the left bar is for ? ;D
Use that properly and you can get a small bore smoker anywhere. :D
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2010, 08:38:56 PM »
Ya, 125's have power but they are either on or off, pretty much same with 250 mx bikes, you really can't putt around on them.  So, on a 125 you're always wide open, there isn't any going to go up a hill climb at 1500 RPM on a 125, you're going up that thing at 13000 RPM in the highest gear that u can get.

The same in technical stuff or else you're going to be clutching it a lot.  There are some good riders who can ride a 125 through technical stuff, they hit the power band hard whenever they can, it's more effort but it can be done, same with 250.  

Quote
A 500 can be more tiring if you are hamfisted with the throttle and not smooth with it

Most definately, infact once you're able to ride the power smoothly it is a pretty easy ride though.  But if you start hammering a 500 like it's a 125 it will throw you thru some hoops and you'll tire out pretty quick if you're not used to it.  Like I said, try standing up on a 500 and then try on a 125, the 500 will feel like it's going to rip your arms off.

Those new KTM 300's are quite popular and I know a lot of people who have them.  They do have smooth power and you can stand on them pretty easily as well without the arm ripping feeling.  They also do have a good power spread from low RPM.  The gears are also so short, makes it good in the woods, after riding my 500's those bikes are like wtf, how many gears do these bikes have??

Trask Climbs

2 CR500s (1992, 2001), 1 YZ250 (1990) and a 1982 Maico 490gs (and only the Maico made it up the first several hills in the video)

The KTM 495 in winter:

Winter Wonderdland Part 1 Featuring the 'Rock Crawler'

Winter Wonderdland Part 2 Featuring the 'Rock Crawler'

Those bikes have a lot of low end power.

This is my CR500:

Mud Day, Ankur's Day Off, Return of CR500

Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2010, 11:37:40 PM »
Well of course I know a 125 will pull a slide, but the reason I say forget about it is that it's tricky business.  You've got a window of RPM where there's enough power to pull the slide, and the unfortunate thing about 125s is that this window is significantly narrower than, say, a big-bore.  So while you can get it out, to be sure, you also have to make sure your ducks are all in a row, and when if things go on too long, you might run out of revs and have to shift, which would be a bit awkward in a big gnarly slide.

As for using the clutch to climb hills, that obviously works, but it scares me.  What I mean by that is, I don't want to buy a new clutch.  Ever.  The clutch on my uncle's 430 Husky lasted 30 years before needing to be replaced, and the 120 started showing signs of needing a new one after 40.  Low maintenance is something I really value, especially given my virtually nonexistent income.

If you're good enough, you can beat almost any bike or cover almost any terrain, regardless of what sort of machine you have.  But the fact that it's possible doesn't eliminate the difference in how easy something is.  A 125 can do immense slides, seemingly-impossible hill climbs, and turn out laps that appear to defy physics.  But a 500 can do all of that easier, and safer with less wear on man and machine, as a general rule.  Unless, of course, they're tuned with an irregular or peaky power curve.  Then you might as well be riding a bomb.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 11:40:08 PM by JETZcorp »


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2010, 12:06:05 AM »
Quote
I can see things getting tricky on your '83 though, mainly because the action on your throttle is kind of funky.  It has a little "detent" in it that makes it want to give power in zaps rather than just rolling it on.  Probably the cable just needs some oil.

Have to get used to the throttle and have it on the edge of where it pulls.  It's broken actually, its not the cable it's the throttle itself.  I almost had to throw it away and get a new one but got it working and didn't try to get a new one yet. 
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2010, 12:13:49 AM »
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2010, 01:01:55 AM »
OMG, I heard a Grizzly Bear.

That video reminds me of the first time my cousin upgraded from a Suzuki JR50 to a Honda SL70 four-stroke (if you can call it an upgrade.)  There was this gravel road over-looking a gravel pit (there are a lot of gravel pits around here, it's really just a big gravel clearing with pig piles of rocks everywhere).  Rather than just taking the road out of the gravel pit and going up from there, our dads decided in their infinite wisdom that we now had 70 and 80cc bikes (I just got my Yamaha GT80 two-stroke) we could just climb the hill up to the road.  After some struggling with a device called a "clutch" which I'd only learned of four hours before, I managed to make it up the hill, which was maybe 1/5 as high as the one in the video there.  Meanwhile, Mark is down there struggling with his bike, primarily because he'd just let off the throttle too early.  Half an hour later, Mark makes it up, crying and saying the bike had no power.

Now, my uncle is the kind of guy who doesn't take bullshit lightly.  He's been known to yell at fast-food employees if they take too long.  So after half an hour of watching his son getting his ass handed to him my what seemed to him (and to all of us, now) as a very simple hill, he was pissed.  Red faced, he got on the SL70 (with no helmet or anything, by the way) kicked that bitch over, revved it up a few times, then dumped the clutch and proceeded to carve circles into the road, keeping the front wheel virtually stationary at the center of the circle as the back end swung around and sprayed gravel on everyone and everything.  Then he stopped spinning and shot up into the woods (which looked just like a smaller version of what this guy did) and then disappeared into the trees.  We could just hear this massive farting sound as he roared about and tore things to pieces.  Then he blasted out of the trees, front wheel in the air, landed in the center of his circle, locked the back wheel, laid a big skid, killing the bike and stopping two feet away from Mark.  "What the fuck you you mean it ain't got no power?!"

Many people throughout history have done Figure-8's in ice or on dirt.  But only Scott managed to create a Figure-Q with an old SL70.  The giant letter Q laid carved deep into the gravel, and remained there for five years until eventually it eroded away.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2010, 01:04:40 AM »
The guy in the video, Cory Graffunder, races for Husqvarna in Enduro Cross and placed I think 3rd in Vegas last week.
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline Coop

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2010, 07:02:28 AM »
Well just reading you are afraid of using the clutch because you never want to replace one, tells me a lot about how you ride and why you think 125's are gutless with light switch like power (well that and it's obvious you've never ridden a modern well set up bike). Clutches on a small bore are your best friend for staying in power. You could NOT ride the trails I ride on your 120 or even 250, without using the clutch. I just taught my nephew yesterday how to clutch his CR80 for power when he couldn't get the bike up a nasty, but short, twisty rocky rutted climb. You cannot ignore things like rings and clutches on a two stroke and call it low maintenance. The correct term is neglect  :D .

There is nothing wrong with wanting to just putt or lug around on a bigger bike. But you can't criticize smaller bikes and praiser big bores when you honestly just prefer to be a lazy rider. That doesn't make it a better off-road bike overall, that makes it better for your style.

EDIT: Which by the way I am just as guilty of as the next guy. I vehemently defend small bikes as good off-road bikes. But that is only because I enjoy riding a smaller, lighter bike fast. I enjoy that more than not riding a 500 to it's fullest abilities.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2010, 07:36:41 AM by Coop »
- Mike - Don't take life so seriously, nobody gets out alive.

Offline GlennC

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2010, 07:57:59 AM »
Well put Coop,
I just figured out that not every one rides like my son and I.
Our trail rides are more like a 60-80 mile hare and hound race.

I don't know how my bikes would run on the sight seeing type of ride, I just have no interest in that.

None of my arguments make any sense when the riders are from another discipline of riding.

All I can say is I like my CR500 and for the type of riding that I do It is far superior.

For the type of riding you guys do, I don't see any need for Disc brakes, Liquid cooling or long travel suspensions.

Wheres the F'n Tylenol.

Offline offroader

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2010, 09:57:37 AM »
Yep,the clutch is there to help keep the bike in the meat of the power.It can also be used to control the power and maintain traction in slippery conditions.watch how even a top trials guy uses the clutch. :o Talk about needing replacements often. :DYes small bore bike are also fun and fast.Pick your weapon and ride!

Offline JohnN

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2010, 10:12:12 AM »
Quote
125's have power but they are either on or off, pretty much same with 250 mx bikes, you really can't putt around on them.

Thanks for writing this because it explains quite a bit....

When some of use "Racers" talk about stuff, we wonder why some of you say the things you do, the statement above says it all.

Nothing against what you like, everyone likes something different, but some of the statements some of you have made have left me scratching my head and saying wtf???

If you are just going to putt around, I say have at it and enjoy every moment. But please when we are talking about racing at the highest levels of the sport of motocross, don't start talking about how a vintage bike would be a better choice! Please....

At local events or while riding on trails older or vintage bikes can be faster than modern bikes, because the rider is a better rider. When you move into the realm of Pro racing it's a totally different story. Many of the racers of are a similar ability and utilize the machinery close to it's potential... those two worlds are not the same.

Just my $.02
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline keeptwostrokesalive

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2010, 10:41:37 AM »
I saw this video on youtube and thought it was cool so i shared it with everyone.  I didnt think it would turn into a heated argument.  We all either love motocross or trail riding.  So not everyone will like the same bike you do.  We all have our different opinion for why one bike is superior to another.  I dont think it matters, as long as your able to go out and ride your fun and reliable two stroke.  Who cares if someone likes their bike better than yours, just go out and ride. ;D ;D ;D

Offline JohnN

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2010, 10:43:50 AM »
We all either love motocross or trail riding.  So not everyone will like the same bike you do.  We all have our different opinion for why one bike is superior to another.  I dont think it matters, as long as your able to go out and ride your fun and reliable two stroke.  Who cares if someone likes their bike better than yours, just go out and ride. ;D ;D ;D

x 2

 ;D ;D
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Two stroke hillclimbing
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2010, 12:27:42 PM »
Quote
A 125 can do immense slides, seemingly-impossible hill climbs, and turn out laps that appear to defy physics.  But a 500 can do all of that easier, and safer with less wear on man and machine, as a general rule.

It's as if they didn't know I was on their side...

And John, when did I say a vintage bike would be better at the pro level?  How could they be?  Riding at the pro level is more like doing touch-and-gos on an aircraft carrier than it is like a race at Carlsbad.  The sport they're built for doesn't exist, it's like using a baseball bat for tennis.  I don't know why you brought that one up in this topic, but I'm responding to it anyway.

The reason I like a big-bore is because you can loaf around on it all day and get drunk in the low-end.  It's fun to see just how low you can get that thing to rev without dying.  After spending an entire life on small-bores (which includes 250s in my opinion, simply because "medium bore" sounds stupid) it was just something that made you go "damn!"  But does that mean that I have to have a big bore and would never ride a 250 ever again?  Of course not!  I love my 250, and I don't plan on ever giving it up.  When it's necessary, I'll slip the clutch and let it grind itself into a dust that costs more than its weight in gold.  But before I do that I'll do that, I'll do everything in my power to negotiate the terrain without wearing down my components.  Over the course of my life, the savings from that might just get me an extra bike, or a Caribbean cruise. :)


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?