SuperHunky .com Interview - Project Two 50

[JohnN]

Hey John, I was just wondering, but before you picked Yamaha, did you guys ever consider service Honda and their cr250r in a 2010 crf250r frame? That would be a killer bike if the motor was properly tuned. I think that it would actually be under the weight limit, imagine that, having to add weight to your bike, while the factory teams have to spend thousands to take weight off. Are you guys considering using service Honda next season if Yamaha does not end up helping out with bikes?

Very interesting question. The quick answer is yes, we did think about the Service Honda bikes... in fact I spoke to AJ at Service about the YZ250 in the 2010 YZF250 frame (which should be done sometime soon)

We also considered KTM, TM Racing and Maico as well. Because we have relationships with TM and Maico it was a no brainer... Unfortunately the Pro AMA rules contain a homologation rule. This rule of course can not be found in any rule book and no one asked knows where to find it. I was sent in circles when asking who to ask!

Personally we probably would have been TM Racing mounted if it were up to us and we could choose any machine we wanted. Mike absolutely loves the TM125 he has been riding/racing! We didn't really want to race a bike from the Big 4...

For next year we have been kindly offered Maicos to compete on... although we have not had the opportunity to test one yet. But the challenge will be the Pro AMA rules.

It almost seems as though the Big 4 don't want any other manufacturers competing against them. Could this actually be true? 

Why the Yamaha? Because Mike had one already! As a fun puzzle.. when our bike is all finished, try to find the name Yamaha anyplace on the bike! lol

[SwapperMX]

Very interesting question. The quick answer is yes, we did think about the Service Honda bikes... in fact I spoke to AJ at Service about the YZ250 in the 2010 YZF250 frame (which should be done sometime soon)

We also considered KTM, TM Racing and Maico as well. Because we have relationships with TM and Maico it was a no brainer... Unfortunately the Pro AMA rules contain a homologation rule. This rule of course can not be found in any rule book and no one asked knows where to find it. I was sent in circles when asking who to ask!

Personally we probably would have been TM Racing mounted if it were up to us and we could choose any machine we wanted. Mike absolutely loves the TM125 he has been riding/racing! We didn't really want to race a bike from the Big 4...

For next year we have been kindly offered Maicos to compete on... although we have not had the opportunity to test one yet. But the challenge will be the Pro AMA rules.

It almost seems as though the Big 4 don't want any other manufacturers competing against them. Could this actually be true? 

Why the Yamaha? Because Mike had one already! As a fun puzzle.. when our bike is all finished, try to find the name Yamaha anyplace on the bike! lol

Hey John. I really enjoy hearing about everything involved with Project Two50. Its great to hear about what has been considered for the project and all the small goings on that are part and parcel of a race team. Did you not manage to speak to Davey Coombs himself to to clarify the homologation rules regarding the Maico or TM. I am sure success at the national level would do wonders for either of these companies in regards to future sales. Surely you would have had an argument to back up your case with 2010 RMZ250's being raced in the supercross without bikes for sale in the States.

And remember, keep an eye out for those black helicopters.

[TMKIWI]

The Homologation rule has to go.
Are the big 4 scared of competion ? Yep

Will they lose sales to the smaller guy's ? Hope so.

They have had it too good for too long.
Quite a few people on this site bemoan the lack off individuality between the big 4.
The smaller manufactors are able to build something a bit different because they can.
Thats whats good about the Euro bikes.
More manufactors means more fans.
Everyone has their favorite brand and will show up to events with their flags & Tee shirts to cheer on "Their bike".
Imagine the sales someone like Maico/TM would get if someone like Chad Reed/Ryan Villopoto/Dungey won races for them .
It would piss off the big 4 and maybe force them into doing something different.
Remember the only reason the factory's race is to sell motocycles.
The average guy on the street's hasn't heard of the likes of TM/Maico/Gas Gas because they don't see them on TV.
Get them on the grid asap.
Variety is the spice of life.

[JETZcorp]

Well, I think the homologation rule does have some purpose to it, and that's to keep the Works bikes out.  Let's face it, if we (supporters of privateers) want to stand any chance against the Big Four, then we can't allow them to show up to the track with $500,000 one-off bikes that have nothing to do with real for-sale equipment.  I gather Honda was racing in the open class for many years before they even sold an open-class bike to the public.  And I remember one magazine test of a CR250 that said that the works bikes were red, and the production bikes were red, and that's where the similarities ended.  We can't compete against that, and it would be damn hard for someone like, say, Maico to justify investing that much in a single bike, as it would be a massive blow to their budget, compared to the relatively minor impact a works bike would have on a Big Four budget.  Hell, even in the ye olde days when Maico was a big name, the Champion's works bike was pretty much the prototype for the next-year production bike.  They just couldn't afford to put that much into it.

However, I do think that when homologation is taken to the point where someone on a TM can't even line up on the gate, it's being taken much too far.  I don't know what the best balance would be, but perhaps saying that any bike model that's up to be raced must be produced in such numbers that there's one for every dealer.  That's the system they used for NASCAR back when they were based on production cars, and that's why we have Plymouth Superbirds cruising the highways.  It was like a "works car" that they sold to the public.

[JohnN]

JETZcorp - I have a question for you... currently there are ZERO dealers for TM Racing and ZERO dealers for Maico in the USA... So currently each dealer does have at least one! LOL

While I understand what you are getting at, in theory it should work as you say, but it's not even close in real life.

As an example, we purchased a set of Kayaba A Kit suspension, for someone that can actually use these parts to any level, they are head and shoulders above anything the public can buy... They cost about $10K although the Showa Works stuff costs $20K

If you think that the factories stop here you are mistaken! They spend significantly more than that, just for suspension.

Look closely at the four-stroke works bikes, try to figure out what they cost. For a little bit of help, I will relate a first hand story. One of our buddies was a factory mechanic, he told us that he spent over 20 hours polishing the linkage on one "works" bike! Add a dollar figure to that kind of time... it gets very expensive really quickly.

The "factory" teams have stuff that no privateer short of Bill Gates son (if he had one) could afford.

The question is, does the rule really accomplish it's intention? The answer is NO!

All it does is exclude small companies from being able to compete.

To me it's very much like the good old boys club... they don't really care for anyone else to steal any of their thunder.

As for asking about the actual rule, I've asked folks from MX Sports and the AMA... no one can even tell me where the rule is written! Sort of makes you go .... hmmmmm.

HEADS DOWN.... another black helicopter! 

[JETZcorp]

Well, no matter what, the big factories are going to have a money advantage.  That's a given.  However, what I'm saying is that they shouldn't be able to use the actual factory itself to produce a one-off bike with its own unique frame and engine, and ship it over from Japan to compete.  You have to admit, a "real" works bike like that, which has hundreds or even thousands of hours of engineering behind it, not to mention fabrication, has to be orders of magnitude more exclusive than hiring a mechanic to polish something.  If they are even considering polishing things, they're playing a tuning game and not a production game.

Anyway, it seems to me that if Maico and TM have no dealerships in the US (is that really true that TM has no US locations?!) then I think it's perfectly fair that they should not be allowed to race in the American Motorcyclist Association Championship.  There's no problem with foreign machinery in a domestic race, so long as domestic customers can buy the damn thing.  Now, of course there would have to be an allowance for internet sales, like if you have your Maico ordered for you and shipped over to the US in a crate.  I think that should count as sales to the US and that internet distribution channel should be counted as a dealer, or maybe even multiple dealers depending on how many bikes they move.  Like, let's say the average friendly local Big Four shop sells 20 bikes a month, and XYZ International Motocross in Switzerland is selling 40 bikes a month to the US, I think XYZ International should be said to have two "dealer equivalents" in the US.

That's just an example I came up with, but it would work better than a "Thou shalt make X0,000 somethings per year" system.

[JohnN]

The reason for no dealerships is because so many have gone out of business... now I'm talking about the Big 4... many of them have gone out of business.

TM and Maico are small companies, they don't have any dealers here because they are no able to compete in Pro motocross... hmmm a catch 22. Both of these machines are sold direct from the manufacturer. Some brave small shops may decide to carry the damn foreign bikes... that would be nice.

So the Big 4 can continue their domination of the MX market in piece. Those darn Europeans, what the heck are they thinking!

Of course, the above is in jest, sort of.

The truth is that the rules are extremely "flexible" for the Big 4. For instance, Suzuki raced a 2010 RMZ250 in the 250 class, when there we ZERO on dealership floors. All of the Big 4 have warehouses full of four-strokes that no one wants to buy. They can't just fill up the warehouses so they can meet the rules anymore.

So the whole thing comes full-circle. See they don't have to sell that certain number, they just have to import that number. If you have enough money to import enough machines, you can compete.. if not you're out of luck.

I've heard stories of the process, where all they had to show the committee was the owners manuals!!

Even Maico and TM could afford to print enough manuals to pass that test. But they are not in the "club" and must be excluded.

Like I said, I understand the rule and it's intention, but it's broken and excludes small manufacturers. Besides, even if they could do unlimited things to a machine or have full-on factory bikes, technology has come pretty close to the point where it would not be leaps and bounds better than what they already have.

When a rule only excludes competition, it's a bad rule.

How about this take on it, they have to be production frames, cases, cylinders and heads. They have to be available and for sale to the general public.

[JETZcorp]

I like that idea.  So long as someone in the country can purchase the bike without leaving the United States (read: Import it in a crate or buy it in a dealership) then that bike should be allowed.  That's not to say, if XYZ sells a 150F they can then XYZ is allowed into the AMA racing.  I mean, the XYZ150F is allowed in.  I think a price limit should be set also, because it would be possible for a company so make a "works" bike in the full one-off $500,000 sense, and offer it for sale knowing full well that no one will ever buy one.  So maybe a $20,000 price ceiling in 2010 US dollars would be workable?  And I like the limit on modification, to what extent is that regulated right now?  Just how far to they let you go?

[TMKIWI]

I honestly don't understand how your brain work's Jetz.
John just bet me to some of the things i was going to say in the above post.
Yes it a catch 22 situation.
The thing is, TM DOES have dealers around the world but can't in the USA cause they are not allowed to race.
The "Boy's Club" needs to be broken up.
The other thing is the TM & Maico "ARE" production bikes, just not according to the AMA.
The factory bikes from the big 4 are so removed from what you & I can buy it just makes a mockery of the currant rules anyway.

It's quite simple.
Let TM/Maico/Husenburg/Sherco etc race and they WILL sell bikes in the USA.

[JohnN]

Here is a link to the AMA Pro rule book...

http://www.mxsportsproracing.com/pages/rules/ama-pro-racing-rules

What I quoted at the end of my last post was basically the rules... as they are written in the rule book.

[riffraff]

Now I remember in the 70's the big four had their super trick exotic one off factory racers and we had the privateers who were somewhat able to hold their own against the factory guys, especially in the open class. Remember the claiming rule?, do they still have it? And what about the guy that builds his own in his garage?

[JETZcorp]

I don't really buy the notion that it's impossible to even sell ONE bike in the US, or open ONE shop without fielding a team to campaign in the nationals on TV.  Maybe I don't understand the rules, but I'm pretty sure you can run one of these non-homologated bikes in amateur competition, right?  Seems to me that's the biggest demographic for potential riders.  Now obviously, without the publicity that comes from having a guy racing on TV, they're not going to instantly be able to move the volume of one of the Big Four.  But, we've seen what the sentiments are in the two-stroke community.  Maico and TM are the big names that are traded back and forth.  Maico could absolutely open up shop here in the US, even if it's not a physical shop.  Aren't there already plans to do this?  Doesn't that, in itself, discredit the idea that you have to be in the AMA in order to sell any bikes?

And remember, I'm not proposing that we go with the current system.  I'm saying we should lower the requirements so drastically, that all you have to do to be eligible to compete is sell motorcycles directly to the United States.  You mentioned Husaberg, well I just looked them up, and it turns out I could get in my car and be at the door of a Husaberg shop less than fifteen minutes from the time I hit the "Post" button on this message.  Under the homologation rules I'm proposing, that means they can legally race any bike that is offered through that shop, or any other shop, or any other channel of acquisition in the US.  They're in, by my rules.  And it's notable that not all of these shops are exclusive.  In fact, the Husaberg site is pointing me to a shop in Seattle where my friend and I thought about picking up a 1980 Husky for him, that they were selling at that shop!  There's a KTM dealership really close to my house that also has the Big Four on their sign, so clearly it's possible to have a shop that's not single-marque.  There's no law saying that you couldn't try opening a Big-Four-Plus-Maico dealership, or even a Husqvarna-TM-Maico-Husaberg-Ossa-GasGas shop.

What I'm saying is, the fact that some particular marque isn't participating in AMA races at the current time doesn't prevent them from selling motorcycles in the US, and I think that should be enough to allow them to race.  Under the current rules, it's apparently not considered enough, and just like everyone else, I want that changed.  However, I still don't believe you should be able to enter a bike in the hard-core national AMA races unless it's available to the American public at large.  That way, we give the small manufacturers an incentive to sell their bikes here, to compete in the big races (because they can, and it'll be good PR) and everyone will develop their for-sale bikes, rather than one-off works bikes.

I don't see what's wrong with this.  Maybe you thought I didn't want a rules change or something?

[TMKIWI]

What i meant Jetz is it is catch 22 situation.
I understand that that there has to be some kind of factory back up service available but it's hard for the small guy to get started when it is excluded from national event's
Now im not saying let any one who thinks they can build a bike in to race, but companies like TM are well establised around the world except the states.
You and I might know of these brands but the casual observer is not.
They are your future market.
The big 4/5 have it all their own way at the moment.
As an example look at any 250F bike test.
Do you see TM/Husqvarna/Sherco etc. Not very often.
These small companies do not have the budget to market them selves like the big boy's.
I am sure people seeing something different on the start grid would be a major boost for the little guy.

An old friend of mine asked me the other month what sort of bike i had. When i told him a TM he went blank for a moment thinking 'what?' then he said 'Oh i know what that is, i saw one at the street races over christmas, man that thing kicked ass'. TM do a lot of Motad racing and sent their world champ down here for the summer.

That is the power of competing!

[JETZcorp]

Right.  And considering that TM have a dealership in Bakersfield, CA (according to their site), they would be perfectly eligible to compete in AMA racing if I were to have my way about how the rules should be run.  It would be really nice if it were possible to actually find that homologation rule.  The fact that it's not clearly available for all to see is really suspicious.

[JohnN]

JETZcorp - you crack me up... now I understand, you are talking about what you would do to the rules if you were in charge. Not so sure that's a good idea putting you in charge! LOL

When we compete locally on the TM people show an interest but they seem to say the same thing, there are no dealers near them. When we tell them that you can get parts in a couple of days via USPS or UPS they don't like the idea.

Although I've got to say that with the YZ250 we have had quite a few times where not only the local dealer did not have gaskets, circlips and other parts that you would think they would stock, but dealers in a 500 mile radius did not have them. So we had to order them and it took 3 to 5 days!

Perception is everything in this day and age.

While you are correct that in theory if you won all the amateur races on these machines that folks would buy these machines like candy, but it does not work out that way. Because these manufacturers are small they don't have the money of the Big 4. So even in the amateur scene it's lopsided.

Many really good racers have earned the privilege of getting "free" bikes from the Big 5, these smaller manufacturers can't justify doing that on a small scale.

They would receive much more "bang for the buck" by competing on the National stage.

Can I ask you a question? Have you ever attended a Pro Motocross race, in person I mean.