Superbikes Of Supercross - cycle world. More food for 2T thought

[citabjockey]

http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/04/18/superbikes-of-supercross-racing-technology-vs-costs/

This is a bit of background on SX bike development, including some detail from RV's team.
But -- scroll 2/3 of the way down the article to this little tidbit:

Osterman also said some of the things I?ve been hearing from others about four-stroke MXers. ?When a four-stroke makes a noise, it?s usually too late. There?s so much going on in them, it?s going to cost you. If you grenade a four-stroke, you might as well buy a new one.?

Four-strokes, which fire only every other revolution, have to make up for this by revving higher. When something goes bad inside, all that extra kinetic energy goes into breaking things. Would some form of electronic early warning be too expensive?

World Superbike tech inspector Steve Whitelock used to manage AMA Supercross. He said MX dads were constantly calling and writing him, urging a return to two-strokes. If a two-stroke seizes, you buff the aluminum off the bore, put in a new piston and rings, and you?re running again in 30 minutes. But with a four-stroke, when a valve touches the piston and breaks, it can cascade, wrecking the head, cylinder, crankshaft and crankcase. Just take it to the dealer and write ?get running? on the R.O.? How many times can dad?s plumbing business cover that $4000 bill? Some families put hundreds of thousands of dollars into their sons? riding careers, but in this game, financial sincerity is no guarantee of success.


Yep.

[eprovenzano]

Nice. 

[Stusmoke]

About bloody time someone cut the BS.

[Smithdad]

AMEN BROTHER!!!!!
That is the world we USED to live in!

[SwapperMX]

That is a good article. Some interesting insight. Especially on chassis and set up !!

[VintageBlueSmoke]

He says "It?s like the old situation with carbureted bikes: Carbs are only so good. EFI completely erased all those problems. I welcome it. It?s going to make the end user?s stuff better.?

Ahem...flame away!

 

[SwapperMX]

He says "It?s like the old situation with carbureted bikes: Carbs are only so good. EFI completely erased all those problems. I welcome it. It?s going to make the end user?s stuff better.?

Ahem...flame away!

 

As bad as it sounds Vintage, this is the general riding public's opinion. One less thing to have to do to your bike, i.e, jetting it constantly. It has seriously affected Yamaha's sales of their 250f's. Purely because they are still carburetted. Look forward a few years, and imagine there are several companies that have had fuel injected two strokes for a couple of years. Do you think people who were looking at buying a new bike would still want a carb'd two stroke. No, they would want the injected spec bike, as it's one less thing to worry about. Regardless of whether it is necessarily better.

[Stusmoke]

He says "It?s like the old situation with carbureted bikes: Carbs are only so good. EFI completely erased all those problems. I welcome it. It?s going to make the end user?s stuff better.?

Ahem...flame away!

 

As bad as it sounds Vintage, this is the general riding public's opinion. One less thing to have to do to your bike, i.e, jetting it constantly. It has seriously affected Yamaha's sales of their 250f's. Purely because they are still carburetted. Look forward a few years, and imagine there are several companies that have had fuel injected two strokes for a couple of years. Do you think people who were looking at buying a new bike would still want a carb'd two stroke. No, they would want the injected spec bike, as it's one less thing to worry about. Regardless of whether it is necessarily better.

Exactly. Whether or not EFI on the four strokes is better has become irrelevant. The public is sold on the idea. Not having to jet everytime you go to a different race is awesome! Mankind is forever seeking ways to make their life easier, and EFI does that in a big arse dose.

[fabbo]

I could be wrong on this but if you break down in bum crack nowhere with a two stroke carby, you can probably fix it. If you break down with fuel injection. what the hell do you do? How much does it cost for a spare injector ? I heard up to a few hundred dollars each! Imagine carying that in your toolbag while riding, you would not want to lose that tool bag, maybe better hope it is not a dud either. I have had dud spark plugs but i always have 2 or 3 with me so a few dollars no biggie. Very different story carrying a few injectors, my wife and wallet will not be happy about that. I do see bikes going down this sophisticated road just not sure if it is user friendly. My yamaha is 12 yrs old and CR is 8 yrs old and both going great and I trust them on trail rides. I think I would stress out too much with an injected bike, freind has a four stroke one and it is weird when things go wrong because you can not work it out, forever guessing what could be the problem. Really annoying always riding close to where cars are parked in case his bike breaks down so he does not have too far to push it. He is trying to sell his CRF 450.

 Any way just my .02 cents worth. 

[Stusmoke]

If they can ensure me that it will be just as reliable if not more so than a carby, I wouldn't mind as much. But it is still going to pack on a solid 4 pounds at minimum.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

I just want to point out that eventhough I have limited understanding and ability to work on Fuel Injection (FI), I believe it is the way to go and I am firmly on that side of the fence. Performance wise, anyone who has ever ridden in the California back country would recognise the advantage of variable jetting provided by FI where you can change altitude and air density by the minute!

Having said that, being able to take something apart, reassemble it - even in "bum crack nowhere", is comforting. However, having been there, and having my known and reliable carb fail. I still had to hike out and come back for it - more than once. Conversly, if I had FI (et al), my bike might not have failed in the first place...or it might have failed with something else...like something to do with the FI, but I still would have had to walk out.

Stu brings up the point of weight and initially I disregarded it as a "Stuism" but although EFI doesn't weight any more than a carb, a battery is required to run the fuel pump - and that is usually unacceptable weight if you don't require a battery anyway (e-start baby!).

I've said it before but in those transportation mediums that have already converted to FI (automotive and marine), reluctance was initially high - even in sports, but eventually the advantages outweighted the disadvantages. Everybody, even desert racers and boaters, who actually go to "bum crack nowhere", now use FI.

[TMKIWI]

Stu brings up the point of weight and initially I disregarded it as a "Stuism"

I like. A new word for TSM.

but although EFI doesn't weight any more than a carb, a battery is required to run the fuel pump - and that is usually unacceptable weight if you don't require a battery anyway (e-start baby!).

EFI/DI can run with out a battery.
Rare earth magnet stator.
e.g ETEC's have enough power from the stator to fire up the EMM in 1/4 of a revolution. No battery needed.

[motoxr377]

"Stuism"

LOL

[Dirtsaw]

I agree with Fabbo.  Adding complexity(computer controled EFI) to a 2 stroke kinda defeats the simplicity principal of owning one in the first place.  I really don't think I'd ever own an EFI model.  Sooner or later, the electronics will fail.  And how much more will these new bikes cost.  $7k for a big bore 125 (150) before adding necessary items is rediculous.  What will it be with fuel injection?  Computer programs?  Laptop?  A buddy of mine has a Husky 310 with fuel injection.  Brand new.  Had to get it remapped just to change the pipe.  And the dealer screwed it up the first time they tried.  Imagine joe schmo trying to do it in his garage.  No Thanks!  I'd rather keep it simple and less expensive..  Isnt' that why the sport is shrinking in the first place?  Expense???
 

[VintageBlueSmoke]

See, there is where I disagree with you. I think Fuel Injection is SIMPLER. Sure, you may need a laptop (or smart phone) to change the mappings but just as with GET or Vortex mappable ignitions, for tomorrow's WIZKIDS, it will be no big deal. Will is cost more? Initially sure. Not that it has to though.  The cost of the device is really about the same or LESS (once development costs are figured out) and since there is nothing new here except packaging, the price only goes up because manufacturers will use it as an excuse to raise the price.

No car or truck today comes with a carb. Why do we motorcyclists have to be left with pre-1980's technology?