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Author Topic: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.  (Read 5173 times)

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Offline miedosoracing

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Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« on: April 29, 2010, 11:12:18 AM »
I just want you guys to know, it is now the joke of the industry. So please follow my lead and start pushing 150cc and 300cc for the Pro's.  The 250 vs 250 is now the joke when brought up, no longer is it an actual question to see if it will pass. So when you are told it is being asked, you are being dupped.  Again, start talking about 150cc vs 250F's and 300cc vs 450F's.  It is our only chance to see 2 strokes in the US pro ranks.  Thanks
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Offline JohnN

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2010, 01:38:03 PM »
But I want to have a bigger bike... how can I beat those dastardly two-strokes.... waaaaaaaa!!!



All joking aside, miedosoracing is correct.

Let me explain... currently we have been pushing for equal displacement, the manufacturers keep on threatening to pull out of racing (which in the scheme of things would probably be better for the sport) if the rules get changed to equal displacement.

Let's look at what we are really trying to accomplish in the big picture... we want to have two-strokes which are able to compete at the Pro level, so we see some on the track. If we ask for a 25cc increase for the 125 and a 50cc increase for the 250... it still gives the manufacturers an advantage they seem to feel they need to win on their four-strokes.... but gives the two-stroke guys a fighting chance to compete.

After some serious thought this, it's probably our best course of action.

Just so you know, three months ago I was in complete disagreement with miedosoracing about this... my feeling was that it should be equal displacement or nothing. He tried to explain, but I would not hear him. A closed mind is not helpful in something like this and unfortunately I had mine fully closed.

Of course another friend wrote an entire race program utilizing the 150cc two stroke, Rupert X.... Check out Rup's ideas and lets discuss...

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/09/the-american-institute-for-advanced-motocross-studies-5-year-plan/

What are your thoughts??
« Last Edit: April 29, 2010, 01:40:51 PM by John Nicholas »
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Offline ASH510

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2010, 01:49:50 PM »
i think  150 and 300 would be a good option.
i went to the grand junction SX this past week.
Travis Bannister  was on a real kx 250 2 stroke
in the 250 class and he beat out the 4 bangers.
after watching the race i think a 150 will have to
be ran wide open to beat a good 250f pilot. but
is that not what is fun? you run your bike all you
can get out of it and leave with a smile.

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2010, 03:02:18 PM »




http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/09/the-american-institute-for-advanced-motocross-studies-5-year-plan/

What are your thoughts??

Unfortunately, John, that ended his career as an mx writer. But like many say, I'm just a conspiracy person.  8)
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Offline JohnN

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 05:17:32 PM »
I knew that Rupert had worked as a writer for the AMA for a while.. but I didn't know that was the reason he was no longer working as a writer....

When my site grows and starts making some bucks, I'd like to have him write some stuff here..
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Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2010, 05:26:23 PM »
I don't see it as a matter of trying to wedge our little niche back into motocross.  To me, this is a moral issue.  Of course, the closer we can get to equal, the better, and as such the 150 v 250F and 300 v 450F is an improvement.  Equal-or-Nothing is certainly not the right approach, because it means we'll get nothing.  However, I still don't think that any inequality is desirable.  To make an analogy that's WAY overpowered, let's imagine that the current situation is like slavery.  The two-strokes are getting the short end of the stick and the four-stroke reigns as king, laughing its ass off.  150 vs 250F is a big improvement over this, but it's still not the ideal, just as segregation was an improvement, but not the ideal.  What I, and I think all of us, want is equality, for all bikes whether they be two-, four-, or even six-strokes.  Make it like every other fair motorsport in the world.  Give X room to work with, and he with the most efficient machine wins.  If that means that four-strokes get eradicated, it's just because the four-strokes aren't good enough.  There's nothing special about four-strokes, or two-strokes for that matter, that says they need to be preserved and kept on regulatory welfare to remain in the sport.  In the past, two-strokes were allowed to compete freely, and virtually kill off the four-strokes.  What was the result?  The biggest period of growth and technological development in the entire history of the sport - a time when everyone and their cat rode motorcycles off-road, and almost all of them were two-stroke.  Not because two-strokes were singled out and given special treatment, but because the machines themselves were superior.

In every other realm, besides motorcycle racing, that's how it works.  Nerdy, socially-awkward people don't get a relationship stimulus from the ministry of girlfriends.  Railroads running steam power don't get a tax credit to make up for their higher overhead.  And overinvested banks don't get bailed out with taxpayer mon... hmm... well, that is to say, they shouldn't get bailed out by taxpayer money.  I think that the best course would be to collect our relatively scattered forces together, and form an alternative racing organization that embraces this equality and doesn't act as an extension of the Big Four (or Five if you count KTM as big enough.)  Will it be as big as the AMA in year one?  No.  Will it be as big in year five?  Probably not.  Will it ever be as big?  Who knows, but at least it will exist, because right now it's infinitely smaller than the AMA.  The vintage racers did it when AHRMA lost track of what matters to their members; it can be done.

That's my take, anyway.  Sorry if I started to sound a little too much like Ayn Rand.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline MonsterYZ5

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2010, 06:04:19 AM »
Im all for 250 vs. 250. I enjoy blowing the graphics off a 4-stroke :P
Josh: #5 2009 Yamaha YZ250

Offline JohnN

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2010, 06:37:33 AM »
JETZcorp - Of course I agree with you, but in order to get to the point of which you speak we must reach the masses. In my mind the way to do that is to compete against the four-strokes on a two-stroke at the National level. What I have noticed is that large segments of actual racers do not use the Internet at all... I feel that by competing out in the real world we will garner additional support.

Since the powers that be (whom ever they may be) do not want to have equal displacement... attempting to make that "leap" would be difficult.

Now that I am elbows deep in building a National caliber machine, it appears that even a slight displacement increase could help considerably. Not to say that it would be fair, but we would have just that much extra everywhere on the track. That would be an improvement. But that is not the ideal or morally correct.

Actually by being at a displacement dis-advantage it gives our story a David vs. Goliath kind of feel to it. The under-funded privateer two-stroke team against the multi-national corporations with their huge four-strokes... funny they need an additional handi-cap even though they can out-spend us by millions of dollars!

As an aside we are also working on a process that will allow us to have the cleanest (emissions wise) two-stroke in the race world. In fact even better than the four-strokes... it's still in process.... although a certain agency that cares about that kind of stuff is very interested in what we are doing! Kind of fun stuff....

As for Ayn Rand, one of my favorites... I listen to audio books and "read" Atlas Shugged at least once every year or so...

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Offline 2smoker

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2010, 11:01:53 AM »
Im all for 250 vs. 250. I enjoy blowing the graphics off a 4-stroke :P

hahahaah I love this attitude!
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Offline MCGRIDDLE_321

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2010, 11:17:46 AM »
im all for 2strokes but i am almost positive that a 150 wouldnt cut it in a national. i would say a 200 would probably do good up against those factory supported 250f.

Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2010, 11:31:17 AM »
im all for 2strokes but i am almost positive that a 150 wouldnt cut it in a national. i would say a 200 would probably do good up against those factory supported 250f.

It needs to be a bike that can be made from current production bikes or currently produced at that size.  144cc bikes can be made from all late model 125's.  The 300 can be made from a KTM 250sx and most current models can atleast be bored to a 270cc.
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Offline MXLord327

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2010, 01:31:22 PM »
There was a guy in a different class from mine a couple years ago ripping holeshots against 450's on a CR125 (don't know the year) that was bored to 151cc - may have been stroked too to get that much from a 125 - not sure.  That thing absolutely screamed!!  This was only the 30+ C class though.....

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2010, 03:11:34 PM »
Johasus!  I think that guy needs a medal, because pulling a 450F with a sub-200cc bike is the equivalent of winning a Formula One race in a stock Corvette.  It just shouldn't be possible, but according to this story, it apparently is.  Then again, I have heard of small bikes doing amazing things.  Like the 100 Green Streak that was having carb trouble at the Sidewinders flat track back in the day (long before my time.)  The rider was messing around with the carb as he cruised easily around the track, then he did something right, and the thing cuts a slide, pulls the front tire into the air and takes off like a bat out of hell.  A 100cc bike, with a full-grown man onboard in the 1960s!  Green Streaks had some sort of mystical voodoo about them, I swear.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline JohnN

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2010, 06:04:38 PM »
At the local level it can be done quite easily, especially in the vet classes....

Some old site had a story ....

http://twostrokemilitia.jfn3.com/stories

Scroll down towards the bottom and look for the date - June 24, 2007

Photo of a YZ125 holeshotting 450F's.... not bad for a little 125..
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Offline TMKIWI

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Re: Just want to be clear on the cc vs cc in ProAMA.
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2010, 03:01:12 PM »
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough