mxa used 125 build and 144 shootout

[chump6784]

its not the affordability that stops me riding a 4 stroke, i simply dont find them enjoyable to ride. The 250f's feel gutless and the 450's just feel like big heavy pigs.

I think 4 strokes do give a softer impression than 2 strokes especially the smaller class.

Not sure when you last rode a 450 though as Id say 'big heavy pigs' was maybe something of 8-10 years ago. Theres very little in it between my RM and CRF. I will say though when tracks get real muddy/sticky the RM is much better thats when you feel the weight of the CRF

The last 450 I rode was an 11 yzf. Of all the 450's the crf is the lightest

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Of first let me say that 250Fs are faster than 125s. Period. No debates, no discussions, faster. The KX250F makes about 40 at Peak. Below and above it still leads most other 250Fs. A 125 makes what? 34 if you're lucky, I think the '12 SX125 was a little over 34.

Since the 250f FOOPER is SO MUCH HEAVIER than a 125 - about 35 Farty Lbs. heavier - they NEED that extra peak horsepower just to have a chance... Kind of like how if you watch Fat People on a leg press machine, they can leg press a little more than skinny people... but they can't win a race up the stairs!

I love Nate Page's video. This kid get's passed by two other guys on 2 strokes, while all the foopers, even dual injected foopers, fall way, far behind.... so far in fact, that you can hardly hear their forlorn farty sound until they're being lapped... Broome is a Scary track with huge uphills, so it's easy to understand how the 4 stroke riders on their farty bikes were having a hard time up all the hills.



It doesn't help at all to have about 1/6th more peak power when you also weigh 1/6th more, and furthermore, you need that power because of being such a fatass, or you'd be completely pathetic!

That's probably why a lot of the fast kids at Broome Tioga have started to call 250 fourstonks "Foo-Fifties!

I rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier. 250Fs feel like a buffalo that just spent the last 20 minutes with a taser on its wang in the corners, so I can't imagine how a 450 would feel.

A YZ250 is really light feeling and flickable. There's not really much difference in feel between it and the 125 except that you have so much more power on tap. A Foo-Fifty feels like Miss Piggy after a trip to Krispy Kreme on someone else's debit card in the corners, so I can't imagine what a FourFoopty must feel like even if there was a 4 stroke troll on board, pretending to be into two strokes on a twostroke board, while always trying to hype Foopers.

Steve Lamson showed what a 125 can do when he whipped everybody at the MXdN... But most people aren't that capable or lack the will to shred on a 125. Your example is a great one ST.

  Yeah thx NDG.  Most passes are made coming into corners, through the corner and exiting corners. Practice in sand or loam, it,s soft if ya hit the ground pushing your skill limit. You should be on the gas,when the 4-st. are off the gas, hard on the brakes  with the bike uprite, then dive inside  or outside to inside, take the 4-st line on the exit. Depending on the corner, there,s many more options. The gforces in some corners-warning is addicting . When young riders with there dad,s sit and watch you rail corners, you now know your on the right track. And soon with more commitment, you,ll become an elite 125 specialist.  

Agreed.

To the bloke who was having trouble on his RM125 and loved his brothers RMZ250, give your 125 time. At first the hardest part of a 125 for me was multitasking between clutching and the corner itself. After a certain point the corner will become second nature and after a later point both will be a second nature. Its at that point you can focus on going faster and faster until you're tearing your brother a new one on the track.

This is a good point! There are definitely people and places that are suited to 4 stonks. As far as people go, some are 4 stonkers right from the beginning. When most of us started riding, there were probably some people at the local riding areas we looked up to becasue they were the fastest... They were the "Badass" guys who raced, won, and had the fastest, baddest bikes. CRs, KXs, YZs. Fast intimidating bikes, too much for a beginner... Bringing up the other end of the spectrum, every neighborhood usually has one kid who couldn't really ever ride BMX, wasn't ever allowed on a skateboard, etc... That kid would always have a 4 stroke if he rode dirtbikes at all, because it's a perfect fit. The smooth, unintimidating power is just right to putt around on. The bike never feels like it's "In a hurry" the way a 2 stroke does with it's impatient charge through each gear, so it won't get out of control with a more timid rider on board. You can relax on a Fooper and just putt around. The bike will not urge you on constantly the way a 2 stroke will, always feeling like it wants to charge and run wide open. True, this makes the 4 stonk feel dead and bloated by comparison, but if that's what you want or need so that you won't be intimidated, hey that's fine with Big Gay Al...

As far as Places that are more suited to a four stonk, there's the recycling center where you can bring scrap metal and they weigh it in and give you cash. Becasue the 4 stonks are about 1/6th heavier than the 2 strokes that are allowed to compete against them, they will get you more money if you want to just hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take'em to the dump. Plus, becasue they break down in a catastrophic manner, and much more often, the opportunity to hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take them to the dump comes sooner and/or much more frequently. You get way more chances to take your bike to the Dump and get some cash with a four stonk than you do with a pesky 2 stoke that just keeps starting and running without problems for Years...

[gpnewhouse7]

^^^ This guy must be a genius! He knows how to use bold writing!

Seriously though a 250f IS faster and doesn't FEEL much heavier than a 125. Your starting to sound like a 4 year old talking about how hard your dad is.

Also your talking utter rubbish about the 250 two stroke feeling heavier, you need more upper strength but I have owned both and if anything the 250 felt lighter due to how the extra power seems to lighten the bike.

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Reading is fundamental. I never said anyting about a 250 two stroke feeling heavier...

You can see in the video how much slower the Foo-Fifty Four Turds are.... I mean they fall behind very quickly, but that's probably not the kind of quickness they paid for.... oops...

Seriously though, I'm a big four stroke fan... I like the way you don't even have to run the pieces through the parts washer before you take them into the dump for cash... They don't penalize you for that. They still give you the going scrap rate for any four stroke. I only beat them into pieces before taking them to the dump for cash so that i can separate out the more valuable metals like the copper, and trade them seperately for a higher rate, plus it's easier to seareate out the plastic parts that way as a coutesy.

Seriously though, four strokes don't sell very well but they RULE at the dump when you want to get cash for scrap metal.

[gpnewhouse7]

 rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier.

Was that not you that wrote that?

I'm not going to argue with you on here so can you please just accept that a modern fourstroke is faster due to its double displacement advantage over the two stroke. If you don't like modern four strokes then fair enough but why make stuff in order to make the two stroke seem faster when it just isn't (under the stupid rules of today). Also yes everyone knows about the modern fourstroke rebuild costs but we (me and twosmoke) said that this is what put us off them.

I love two strokes as much as any other member of this site, I'm an engineer how could I not love the brilliance of the two stroke engine BUT I am also mature enough to be able to realize that the modern stroker can compete with its huge displacement advantage.

[Super Trucker]

My 1st mx bike I owned a 1987 cr125, I picked it up 11-18-89 on my birthday. Is on Green Bay Wisconsin  craigslist, for 400 bucks, it still runs .  It was ported by northshore racing  when I got it. Yeah I put that seat cover on it haha. I rode that bike  year round  in the snow on mx tracks, on the ice, tresspassed and made a track on a sandy- ski hill . On a  500 foot or so verticle drop, there was a wood ramp for ski jumping on 1 of the hills. I jumped  up and down that hill, and climbed a  200 verticle ramp on the side, then pancake the bike turn  80 degrees in the air then drop down the 500 foot verticle drop. That was more of a rush than bungee jumping.   I  talked a pal into borrowing a yz250, where ripping the hill up, then we  drag raced  and hit the ponds in top gear, over and over we crossed the large ponds . On the shore it was greasy mud, we where tearing it up, fly in spin the cr around and roost the shit out of him. We where trying to out do each other, so I stepped it up and was sitting on the bike backwards, then he flys in jumps off the borrwed 250 and tacles me off my bike, then we started whooping each other, dragging each other threw the mud, laughing so hard we couldn,t breath. Then rip across the ponds again. We couldn,t believe the cr kept running, the yz250 stopping running in water over the bars, we just dragged it out, returned the 250 all muddy, gave him a case of beer and 20 bucks.haha  Lets see a 25 yr old 250f go threw that and still run.

[Stusmoke]

rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier.

Was that not you that wrote that?

I'm not going to argue with you on here so can you please just accept that a modern fourstroke is faster due to its double displacement advantage over the two stroke. If you don't like modern four strokes then fair enough but why make stuff in order to make the two stroke seem faster when it just isn't (under the stupid rules of today). Also yes everyone knows about the modern fourstroke rebuild costs but we (me and twosmoke) said that this is what put us off them.

I love two strokes as much as any other member of this site, I'm an engineer how could I not love the brilliance of the two stroke engine BUT I am also mature enough to be able to realize that the modern stroker can compete with its huge displacement advantage.

Eh? Mate I was agreeing with you. I only used that YZ250 sentence to preface how heavy a 250F and 450 must feel. My YZ250 feels heavier than my 125 in the corners cos you know... it is heavier.

Of first let me say that 250Fs are faster than 125s. Period. No debates, no discussions, faster. The KX250F makes about 40 at Peak. Below and above it still leads most other 250Fs. A 125 makes what? 34 if you're lucky, I think the '12 SX125 was a little over 34.

Since the 250f FOOPER is SO MUCH HEAVIER than a 125 - about 35 Farty Lbs. heavier - they NEED that extra peak horsepower just to have a chance... Kind of like how if you watch Fat People on a leg press machine, they can leg press a little more than skinny people... but they can't win a race up the stairs!

I love Nate Page's video. This kid get's passed by two other guys on 2 strokes, while all the foopers, even dual injected foopers, fall way, far behind.... so far in fact, that you can hardly hear their forlorn farty sound until they're being lapped... Broome is a Scary track with huge uphills, so it's easy to understand how the 4 stroke riders on their farty bikes were having a hard time up all the hills.



It doesn't help at all to have about 1/6th more peak power when you also weigh 1/6th more, and furthermore, you need that power because of being such a fatass, or you'd be completely pathetic!

That's probably why a lot of the fast kids at Broome Tioga have started to call 250 fourstonks "Foo-Fifties!

I rode my YZ250 for the first time in a couple of months today. I leaned it over in a corner and just about fell flat, it was much heavier than the 125 and thats two stroke v two stroke and only about 10-20 pounds heavier. 250Fs feel like a buffalo that just spent the last 20 minutes with a taser on its wang in the corners, so I can't imagine how a 450 would feel.

A YZ250 is really light feeling and flickable. There's not really much difference in feel between it and the 125 except that you have so much more power on tap. A Foo-Fifty feels like Miss Piggy after a trip to Krispy Kreme on someone else's debit card in the corners, so I can't imagine what a FourFoopty must feel like even if there was a 4 stroke troll on board, pretending to be into two strokes on a twostroke board, while always trying to hype Foopers.

Steve Lamson showed what a 125 can do when he whipped everybody at the MXdN... But most people aren't that capable or lack the will to shred on a 125. Your example is a great one ST.

  Yeah thx NDG.  Most passes are made coming into corners, through the corner and exiting corners. Practice in sand or loam, it,s soft if ya hit the ground pushing your skill limit. You should be on the gas,when the 4-st. are off the gas, hard on the brakes  with the bike uprite, then dive inside  or outside to inside, take the 4-st line on the exit. Depending on the corner, there,s many more options. The gforces in some corners-warning is addicting . When young riders with there dad,s sit and watch you rail corners, you now know your on the right track. And soon with more commitment, you,ll become an elite 125 specialist.  

Agreed.

To the bloke who was having trouble on his RM125 and loved his brothers RMZ250, give your 125 time. At first the hardest part of a 125 for me was multitasking between clutching and the corner itself. After a certain point the corner will become second nature and after a later point both will be a second nature. Its at that point you can focus on going faster and faster until you're tearing your brother a new one on the track.

This is a good point! There are definitely people and places that are suited to 4 stonks. As far as people go, some are 4 stonkers right from the beginning. When most of us started riding, there were probably some people at the local riding areas we looked up to becasue they were the fastest... They were the "Badass" guys who raced, won, and had the fastest, baddest bikes. CRs, KXs, YZs. Fast intimidating bikes, too much for a beginner... Bringing up the other end of the spectrum, every neighborhood usually has one kid who couldn't really ever ride BMX, wasn't ever allowed on a skateboard, etc... That kid would always have a 4 stroke if he rode dirtbikes at all, because it's a perfect fit. The smooth, unintimidating power is just right to putt around on. The bike never feels like it's "In a hurry" the way a 2 stroke does with it's impatient charge through each gear, so it won't get out of control with a more timid rider on board. You can relax on a Fooper and just putt around. The bike will not urge you on constantly the way a 2 stroke will, always feeling like it wants to charge and run wide open. True, this makes the 4 stonk feel dead and bloated by comparison, but if that's what you want or need so that you won't be intimidated, hey that's fine with Big Gay Al...

As far as Places that are more suited to a four stonk, there's the recycling center where you can bring scrap metal and they weigh it in and give you cash. Becasue the 4 stonks are about 1/6th heavier than the 2 strokes that are allowed to compete against them, they will get you more money if you want to just hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take'em to the dump. Plus, becasue they break down in a catastrophic manner, and much more often, the opportunity to hammer them apart with a sledge hammer and take them to the dump comes sooner and/or much more frequently. You get way more chances to take your bike to the Dump and get some cash with a four stonk than you do with a pesky 2 stoke that just keeps starting and running without problems for Years...

Showing videos from a track day doesn't make either faster, it makes the riders either better than eachother or worse.

In pure numbers, the 250F is faster. For example the 2013 KX250F is at a claimed weight of 106.2 kgs dry and a peak horsepower of over 40 this year I reckon. Thats alot heavier than the 90 something kg 150 sx which has a peak horsepower of 38, at PEAK because KTM didn't make any engine revisions this year (Damn it, an extra 2 horsepower would've been awesome). You cannot possible hope to claim that in the peak of their power that the 150 will hang on with the 250F.

On the track the gap will be even more severe because the difficulty of keeping the 150 on the pipe. Where it makes up for it on the track is under braking, and its unique ability to take sharp lines. But all that is irrelevant consider this argument is based around pure power.

Numbers for numbers the 250F pulls away. Of course if the rider of a 125/150 is well practised enough and knows how to use it to the fullest, chances are that 250F is going to be fooping its way across the line after the 150.

At an amateur level, if the 250F wasn't faster, wouldn't most fools have preferred to keep their costs down while racing? I know alot of guys that only ride a fooper to stay competitive.

[cnrcpla]

We can argue over what bike is faster and what has more power all day, but motocross isn't a drag race strip. Top speed and max HP doesn't count for anything in MX, how fast you can get there does. Being heavier, a 4T has to work harder to get up as fast as a lighter 2T. That being said, most riders can NOT use every ounce of HP the bike has to offer, pros can. So if a 250f makes 40hp and 125 2T makes a little under, that isn't going to affect lap times for the average rider. What IS going to affect lap times are experience on either engine type, terrain/condition of the track, and a rider up to the task of hanging on to a 2T or lugging around a 4T. I'm not knocking the 4T, I just believe that racing should be fair, as in 250 vs 250 and whatnot.

[gpnewhouse7]

Sorry stusmoke I was on my phone earlier and read it as that suzukits said that.

[Stusmoke]

Sorry stusmoke I was on my phone earlier and read it as that suzukits said that.

No worries mate, I probably didn't word it very well.

We can argue over what bike is faster and what has more power all day, but motocross isn't a drag race strip. Top speed and max HP doesn't count for anything in MX, how fast you can get there does. Being heavier, a 4T has to work harder to get up as fast as a lighter 2T. That being said, most riders can NOT use every ounce of HP the bike has to offer, pros can. So if a 250f makes 40hp and 125 2T makes a little under, that isn't going to affect lap times for the average rider. What IS going to affect lap times are experience on either engine type, terrain/condition of the track, and a rider up to the task of hanging on to a 2T or lugging around a 4T. I'm not knocking the 4T, I just believe that racing should be fair, as in 250 vs 250 and whatnot.

Oh I completely agree, I was just saying that in pure numbers, the 250F is faster. Hell I lay waste to these 'new' 250Fs on my  01  Honda CR125 everytime I ride with them. I underbrake the sh** out of them and dive straight inside. I use every ounce of HP it has to offer usually, which unfortunately isn't a great deal but its a blast

Point being, if a rider can use the lightweight, supreme handling and underbraking abilities of the 125 to its fullest they will easily overcome the horsepower deficit.

[shanes]

when it comes down to cold hard facts , so what if the 250 f is faster is has twice the cc so it should be , the 2 stroke is more fun to ride , it gives you a lot better feeling when you get it just perfect , the 2 stroke will also make you a much better and fitter rider , 4 strokes make you lazy and are easy to ride in comparison. 2 strokes a lot cheaper to repair and you can do it yourself in no time at all .

i own a 2013 450 yes its great to ride but my SX250 is a lot more fun to throw around but it wears me out so fast as i dont ride enough and im an old bastard .

if you want to compare 2 stroke to 4 stoke fine but use the same cc bike at least , see which one comes out on top then ?? lets face it very few people can ride like the top pro's so for the mortals of the world the best value for money and the most fun equals a 2 stroke  SIMPLE :-}}}

[cnrcpla]

oint being, if a rider can use the lightweight, supreme handling and underbraking abilities of the 125 to its fullest they will easily overcome the horsepower deficit.

Yes, the whole point  of my post was just that. It mostly comes down to the RIDER. I know someone who can whoop my a$$ on an 85, equally, I know a lot of people who can't stay in the front on a 450.

[twosmoke595]

when it comes down to cold hard facts , so what if the 250 f is faster is has twice the cc so it should be , the 2 stroke is more fun to ride , it gives you a lot better feeling when you get it just perfect , the 2 stroke will also make you a much better and fitter rider , 4 strokes make you lazy and are easy to ride in comparison. 2 strokes a lot cheaper to repair and you can do it yourself in no time at all .

i own a 2013 450 yes its great to ride but my SX250 is a lot more fun to throw around but it wears me out so fast as i dont ride enough and im an old bastard .

if you want to compare 2 stroke to 4 stoke fine but use the same cc bike at least , see which one comes out on top then ?? lets face it very few people can ride like the top pro's so for the mortals of the world the best value for money and the most fun equals a 2 stroke  SIMPLE :-}}}

in a perfect world it would be like this, being able to afford both and ride each as we please

[motoman356]

To the bloke who was having trouble on his RM125 and loved his brothers RMZ250, give your 125 time. At first the hardest part of a 125 for me was multitasking between clutching and the corner itself. After a certain point the corner will become second nature and after a later point both will be a second nature. Its at that point you can focus on going faster and faster until you're tearing your brother a new one on the track.

dont get me wrong. i know itll take time. i used to ride an race regularly and have been mostly off the bike for the last few years. ive just got to settle and find a smooth rhythm

[msmola2002]

That's probably why a lot of the fast kids at Broome Tioga have started to call 250 fourstonks "Foo-Fifties![/i][/b]

Really, they have? I'll have to ask all the fast kids in schoolboy since when they have been calling them that next time I am out there. But hey, all this arm swag, leg swag, steezy fo sheezy for days stuff, I can't keep track.

But just cause a kid is fast in schoolboy or whatever is not definitive proof that a 2 stroke is faster. That kid, on that day, was faster - and at that level there is going to be a big spread of skill. 

The video you picked is of the 125 2 stroke class. 2 gate drops. 2nd drop included 250 BEGINNER. I know, cos I am in the video - I was there, and running beginner.

So it sure as hell is not an apples and apples comparison - 250 beginner vs the guy who came fifth in the 125 2 stroke (B/C) class? That proves more than anything it is the rider not the bike.

Results are here.
http://www.cnymra.com/2011/results91811.htm


Hope this helps.