The Euro's advance while Yamaha's BNG's only falls farther behind.

[Jeram]

I think the real point is that for the cost of a 250SX, you can do the following.

you can buy a great condition second hand yz250
completely rebuild the bike
install professionally set up ohlins TTX suspension
slap on some 450F plastics
do some light porting where its needed and reshape the head etc
vforce reeds
lighter wheels etc

ud probably still have spare change left over from the cost of a new KTM.
itd probably go quicker too.

[factoryX]

But that's the joke, why buy a new bike when the last six models are the same, and with a mighty high price tag? No, little changes help persuade people to go out and buy new bikes(We want to keep the yz going correct?). At this point the yz is yamaha's cash cow as was the blaster, banshee, warrior(Now raptor 350), all of which stagnated for 25+ years. With a lot of these European companies there is innovation, something that is dearly needed today.  KTM has 24 different off road models to chose from, 9 of which are two strokes(not including kids bikes).

[chump6784]

The biggest thing going for yamaha is that it has only been in the last couple of years that the competition has caught up. Even in 2010 the 250sx was rated below the yz in magazine shootouts. 2011 came around and finally the 250sx climbed over the yz. so really you only have 2 years where the ktm was better than the yz.

basically the same story with the 125's.

also everyone has some experience with yz's. their build quality and reliability are well known. there are still a lot of people that are worried about buying european because of the stories of old of poor reliability and expensive parts. while this may no longer be the case reputations are hard to change.

i was talking to my mechanic about getting a new bike the other day and mentioned the 250sx. he said that really they are no better or faster than what i have and i would be much better rebuilding the motor on mine and saving the money as a ktm wasn't going to make me any faster.

I may be wrong here but i was also under the impression that KTM do a lot better job of the ports from the factory than other brands. I think it was the Dirt Rider comparison of the 150sx and the 250sxf and they said that the KTM guys there on the day said there was nothing to be gained from the 150 motor. You could change the pipe and that would change where the power was but everything else was done. Maybe that was untrue but if it is the case it means that it wouldn't be too hard to bring a yz up to the power of the sx. Add a reed block, pipe and porting and you have made up the 3 or so hp.

In sayin all that, my next bike will most likely be european as for the same money now you get a better bike and it will be supporting a company that supports 2 strokes, not just milks the cash from them

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Another thing to note is how Suzuki's RM 125 Dominated the EMX 125 Series last year. Yes, it's true that sometimes you can just have a world beating rider who can win on anything... but what stood out last year alongside the champion's run was how the Suzukis fared in the races overall. The guys riding RM's did not appear to be disadvantaged in power, weight, suspension, geometry, or any other quality when compared to the KTM's running alongside them in the series.

In spite of all the hype, it appears that the "Old Tech" RM 125 is just as good as the "Cutting Edge" KTM... maybe it's even a little better if race wins count for anything.

And by extension, the "Old Tech" or "BNG" [or whatever other diss term is chosen] is probably just fine too...

[ford832]

Sorry Suzuki TS250/185 but you obviously haven't read this whole thread.Race wins don't mean jack sh!t.What matters is the R&D and innovation that goes in to your new plastic.The RM's still have the old plastic right?Just as I thought-it's a roach.What's the point of crossing the finish line first if your bike doesn't look blingy or different from last years model?You're obviously from the wrong generation.

[2T Institute]

Another thing to note is how Suzuki's RM 125 Dominated the EMX 125 Series last year. Yes, it's true that sometimes you can just have a world beating rider who can win on anything... but what stood out last year alongside the champion's run was how the Suzukis fared in the races overall. The guys riding RM's did not appear to be disadvantaged in power, weight, suspension, geometry, or any other quality when compared to the KTM's running alongside them in the series.

In spite of all the hype, it appears that the "Old Tech" RM 125 is just as good as the "Cutting Edge" KTM... maybe it's even a little better if race wins count for anything.

And by extension, the "Old Tech" or "BNG" [or whatever other diss term is chosen] is probably just fine too...

The post 05 RM 125 is a very good piece of kit, they have the best port layout and best PV. Have the best potential out of all  the 125's. Love to get my hands on an engine.

[ford832]

Ford I get it, the yz is a good bike.  Even if you don't consider any R&D Yamaha is just toying with us.  Your foolish if you think they are selling them to keep the 2 stroke alive.  The only reason they are selling them, in my opinion (since this is all any of this is from all of us), is because they have the tooling and the space plus parts surplus to keep producing and making money on an already set up production run.

The euro's like em or not are actively coming out with new models and participating with keeping the 2 stroke alive.  Its like the euros have the 2 stroke in ICU and Yamaha has put it into a nursing home.  Sure the yz is still alive, but its slowly dying a dull life.

Good lord Cheb,I never said Yamaha was selling the YZ to keep the 2t alive-though in your last line you say the Euro's are.
Here's a little business edjumacation for you.Yamaha,KTM,TM,Husky want your money.None of the execs of any of these companies would give you the sweat off their collective bags if you were dying of thirst.They just want you to buy their products.
If Yamaha can get you to buy their bike without them putting in any more $$ than they have to-they will.It's called business-and,oddly enough,that's what all these companies are-businesses.It's far cheaper for the smaller companies to develop 2t than 4t's and there is a far stronger market for them off road than mx-which is why they do it.If KTM decided tomorrow that 2t's were about to be replaced by the hyper/solar drive,they'd stop building them-immediately.
Some people really need to get over this weird touchy-feely 2t love thing that some of the smaller companies supposedly have.They don't.They love money-the more the better and nothing else matters.
Back before the YZ400, Yamaha engineers pitched the idea to the execs and they were given a small budget to see if it was feasible.It turns out it was and Yamaha made gobs of $$ while all the other companies scrambled(and took a few years)to come out with their own.Do you suppose Yamaha made any money off that?
The 250f was different.Yamaha couldn't see that one happening so wouldn't assign any money to it.The engineer(who's name escapes me but you can google it) designed the engine in his spare time on his kitchen table.
After this,Yamaha agreed to a couple prototypes but had pretty much decided not to bother funding a production run when a few visiting American journalists were allowed a test ride-and reportedly went nuts and told Yamaha they should be importing them to the states.The result was a 5 yr head start on everyone else and the only bike in the 125 class that everyone wanted.That sounds like sound business to me-actually,an absolute coup and a corner on the market.
Yamaha wasn't trying to kill the 2t,any more than Honda was trying to kill the fourstroke back in the early 70's-they just want to sell products and make more $$-as they all do.None of them "love" your favorite bike or care about saving it either-if people want something else and there is no money to be made.

[Stusmoke]

Ford I get it, the yz is a good bike.  Even if you don't consider any R&D Yamaha is just toying with us.  Your foolish if you think they are selling them to keep the 2 stroke alive.  The only reason they are selling them, in my opinion (since this is all any of this is from all of us), is because they have the tooling and the space plus parts surplus to keep producing and making money on an already set up production run.

The euro's like em or not are actively coming out with new models and participating with keeping the 2 stroke alive.  Its like the euros have the 2 stroke in ICU and Yamaha has put it into a nursing home.  Sure the yz is still alive, but its slowly dying a dull life.

Good lord Cheb,I never said Yamaha was selling the YZ to keep the 2t alive-though in your last line you say the Euro's are.
Here's a little business edjumacation for you.Yamaha,KTM,TM,Husky want your money.None of the execs of any of these companies would give you the sweat off their collective bags if you were dying of thirst.They just want you to buy their products.
If Yamaha can get you to buy their bike without them putting in any more $$ than they have to-they will.It's called business-and,oddly enough,that's what all these companies are-businesses.It's far cheaper for the smaller companies to develop 2t than 4t's and there is a far stronger market for them off road than mx-which is why they do it.If KTM decided tomorrow that 2t's were about to be replaced by the hyper/solar drive,they'd stop building them-immediately.
Some people really need to get over this weird touchy-feely 2t love thing that some of the smaller companies supposedly have.They don't.They love money-the more the better and nothing else matters.
Back before the YZ400, Yamaha engineers pitched the idea to the execs and they were given a small budget to see if it was feasible.It turns out it was and Yamaha made gobs of $$ while all the other companies scrambled(and took a few years)to come out with their own.Do you suppose Yamaha made any money off that?
The 250f was different.Yamaha couldn't see that one happening so wouldn't assign any money to it.The engineer(who's name escapes me but you can google it) designed the engine in his spare time on his kitchen table.
After this,Yamaha agreed to a couple prototypes but had pretty much decided not to bother funding a production run when a few visiting American journalists were allowed a test ride-and reportedly went nuts and told Yamaha they should be importing them to the states.The result was a 5 yr head start on everyone else and the only bike in the 125 class that everyone wanted.That sounds like sound business to me-actually,an absolute coup and a corner on the market.
Yamaha wasn't trying to kill the 2t,any more than Honda was trying to kill the fourstroke back in the early 70's-they just want to sell products and make more $$-as they all do.None of them "love" your favorite bike or care about saving it either-if people want something else and there is no money to be made.

Well said. And to you're previous post which involved something along the lines of: I wonder how many people presenting their opinions on the bikes in question have actually extensively worked on them". No is the answer for me, I haven't. I'm just formulating my own opinion based on the technical specifications and things that sometimes change.
I do think that sometimes people hear that the FMF owner loves two strokes and they really take that to heart. Heres a question for you: Telstra (an Australian telecommunications company) has contracts for both the Apple Iphone and the Samsung competitor (even though its blowing it away, lets not go there). But they advertise them both? strange... Why? Cos they wanna sell the bastards. Half of the guys in the shop will say they love Iphones when they may very well hate them. Its just business. My point here is basically what ford said: Just cos a company appears and says they love something doesn't mean they really do. They love whatever earns them money and will advertise it to the nth degree. If hardly anyone and I mean about 1000 people in each country bought a four stroke motocross bike for a couple of years in a row, but KTM sold hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of 2 stroke mxers, you can bet your bottom dollar that all the companies even honda would start producing two strokes again in a flash

[Jeram]

Ford I get it, the yz is a good bike.  Even if you don't consider any R&D Yamaha is just toying with us.  Your foolish if you think they are selling them to keep the 2 stroke alive.  The only reason they are selling them, in my opinion (since this is all any of this is from all of us), is because they have the tooling and the space plus parts surplus to keep producing and making money on an already set up production run.

The euro's like em or not are actively coming out with new models and participating with keeping the 2 stroke alive.  Its like the euros have the 2 stroke in ICU and Yamaha has put it into a nursing home.  Sure the yz is still alive, but its slowly dying a dull life.

Good lord Cheb,I never said Yamaha was selling the YZ to keep the 2t alive-though in your last line you say the Euro's are.
Here's a little business edjumacation for you.Yamaha,KTM,TM,Husky want your money.None of the execs of any of these companies would give you the sweat off their collective bags if you were dying of thirst.They just want you to buy their products.
If Yamaha can get you to buy their bike without them putting in any more $$ than they have to-they will.It's called business-and,oddly enough,that's what all these companies are-businesses.It's far cheaper for the smaller companies to develop 2t than 4t's and there is a far stronger market for them off road than mx-which is why they do it.If KTM decided tomorrow that 2t's were about to be replaced by the hyper/solar drive,they'd stop building them-immediately.
Some people really need to get over this weird touchy-feely 2t love thing that some of the smaller companies supposedly have.They don't.They love money-the more the better and nothing else matters.
Back before the YZ400, Yamaha engineers pitched the idea to the execs and they were given a small budget to see if it was feasible.It turns out it was and Yamaha made gobs of $$ while all the other companies scrambled(and took a few years)to come out with their own.Do you suppose Yamaha made any money off that?
The 250f was different.Yamaha couldn't see that one happening so wouldn't assign any money to it.The engineer(who's name escapes me but you can google it) designed the engine in his spare time on his kitchen table.
After this,Yamaha agreed to a couple prototypes but had pretty much decided not to bother funding a production run when a few visiting American journalists were allowed a test ride-and reportedly went nuts and told Yamaha they should be importing them to the states.The result was a 5 yr head start on everyone else and the only bike in the 125 class that everyone wanted.That sounds like sound business to me-actually,an absolute coup and a corner on the market.
Yamaha wasn't trying to kill the 2t,any more than Honda was trying to kill the fourstroke back in the early 70's-they just want to sell products and make more $$-as they all do.None of them "love" your favorite bike or care about saving it either-if people want something else and there is no money to be made.

not a bad post.

I think honda is the exception to the rule through.

Their company values are still heavily influenced by the companies founder

[SachsGS]

How does one make a little bit of money in the motorcycle industry?
Start off with a lot of money.

The owners of companies like TM and Gas Gas build motorcycles because they love motorcycles,period,end of story.If their sole motive was to generate profits they would have invested money in other capitalist ventures that offer a greater return for less effort expended,at less risk.All these small Euro concerns are run by enthusiasts who are crazy about the sport and the businesses are an extension of their passions.Senor Bulto,owner of Bultaco motorcycles,was usually found trail riding his motorcycles when he wasn't building them.

Yamaha,on the other hand,is a very large manufacturing concern beholden to it's shareholders,which is why we have the moldy old YZ125 and YZ250.

The YZ400 4T was designed on an engineer's kitchen table,not that 250 hand grenade.

[ford832]

How does one make a little bit of money in the motorcycle industry?
Start off with a lot of money.

The owners of companies like TM and Gas Gas build motorcycles because they love motorcycles,period,end of story.If their sole motive was to generate profits they would have invested money in other capitalist ventures that offer a greater return for less effort expended,at less risk.All these small Euro concerns are run by enthusiasts who are crazy about the sport and the businesses are an extension of their passions.Senor Bulto,owner of Bultaco motorcycles,was usually found trail riding his motorcycles when he wasn't building them.

Yamaha,on the other hand,is a very large manufacturing concern beholden to it's shareholders,which is why we have the moldy old YZ125 and YZ250.

The YZ400 4T was designed on an engineer's kitchen table,not that 250 hand grenade.

Lol,my dealer was always fond of that first bit of wisdom.
I disagree with your last line though-here you go......

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmotocrossactionmag.com%2FYamaha%2FNews%2FDesigner-Yoshhiharu-Nakayama-3937.aspx&ei=oVbaT8CPAqjy2QWU6oG6Bg&usg=AFQjCNEQf6SA0L51iAwXfkwNFaN6obRh2g&sig2=__EvFW09Miey5YQSZ-Bi_Q

I'd disagree with love over money theme of the euro's as well.Every business's first thought is to make money-otherwise they die.The reason for profit may be more profit or to feed the addiction,but the end result is the same.
There's no doubt that many of the smaller euro companies are likely more "enthusiasts" than many of the japanese though.
Did you ever see any vids or pics of any KTM employee ride day/celebrations?They're all hammered and doing stupid sh!t on their bikes.

Regarding the euro money making theme,Ossa and GasGas just announced a partial merger to become more "profitable"(ahem ).
The interesting thing I'd see here is that Ossa already has a FI 2t,GasGas has many more resources than Ossa.I'm thinking maybe a FI 300 GasGas next year. One more thing to consider,GasGas has ties to Yamaha as they continue to use a Yamaha engine in their 250f.Maybe some of that will get traded along.Things could get interesting for 2013.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ca&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ara.cat%2Feconomia%2FGas_Gas-Ossa-trial_0_713928690.html

[SachsGS]

Not to argue nitpicking details but I have a reference to a 2007 MXA article that contradicts the MXA article you mentioned.I don't know what to believe anymore.

Many small business owners first thoughts are (myself included) "Hey this is fun!",the second thought is "Now how do I make a living at this?".

Derby is kaput,Honda has shut down Montesa production, I hope the Spanish motorcycle industry hangs in there.

[Cheb44]

Yipes man I never said they aren't trying to make money, though I do agree with the other post that there is a bit more of a love relationship with some of the companies.  Believe it or not some people do things because they love it and not because it makes them the most money.

My point is exactly what you said, who wants my money? Yamaha, by making the 2 stroke still, at least seems interested in receiving my money, but I think that KTM, as an example, is trying much harder to get my "2 stroke loving" money.  Last I checked this website was dedicated to trying to revamp and bring back the 2 stroke not drag it along cause it still makes some money for some.

Who's abandoned the 2 stroke the most?  Yamaha or KTM?

BTW this is good healthy debate and not at all meant to be insulting, so please don't take it that way.