Maybe not the bikes but the Tracks?

[Cheb44]

Well guys I was reading through a thread on Vital about 450s being to much bike and maybe needing the pros to ride 250s and the 250 class riding 125s, which I would like to see just to get the 125s in the mix.

But, I don't feel like that is our real problem.  Its the tracks, sure we all like watching the guys launch over the triples but are these sky high tracks scaring off potential riders and getting our best riders hurt?

I know that I don't race anymore because I have to much to lose getting myself hurt on a triple.  Sure I don't have to jump them but that is almost as dangerous if "slow guys" are jumping them.  Call it fear if you want but the fact is I have personally attempted to get guys into MX and they won't say it but the crazy jumps scare them off.

Why can't we be happy with large table tops and large doubles.  I wish we would push to more traditional type mx tracks and get away from all this supercross nonsense.

I don't know maybe I am wrong and have just gotten old.

[Cheb44]

Something else I wanted to add, I see more guys going to local "tamer" practice tracks in my area than I see going to the actual mx tracks.  Yeah race days have bigger numbers but I bet they would be even bigger if we tamed the tracks.

[oldermxr]

When everything was in the 2 stroke era the tracks were more tamer but when things changed to the 4 stroke the tracks changed too! Everybody I guess figured that with the 4 strokes making more power that the tracks had to changed and everything had to be bigger. I know it sucks with the bigger triples and the other jumps being bigger also BUT atleast they haven't changed the the corners into man made hard packed burms or hard packed half bowl turns. Some of the local tracks here in my area have done just that with the corners and personally I can't stand the man made hard packed burms or the hard packed half bowl turns. Let the burms build up as the racing goes on during the first moto's then during intermission take the dozer out and level them back out for the second moto's. I still race and jump the jumps as long as I'm comfortable with them If not I'll go over the jump to one side or the other and stay out of the way of others.

[beaner]

I see more guys going to local "tamer" practice tracks in my area than I see going to the actual mx tracks. 

Those are not actual MX tracks. They're wannabe supercross tracks. Our club runs at least half the schedule on natural terrain, real motocross tracks, and that's all I ride now. When I pointed out the number of ambulance trips every time we run one of those man made atrocities in a flat field, they all kind of went Hmm, but they still go there.   

[factoryX]

Uh sorry, tracks today are longer and flatter than they were with two strokes. No, the problem with people getting hurt is because tracks are easier to ride. Easier + Going faster + Stupidity = James Stewart, yes I went there.







lmfao, I don't even know why they call is supercross anymore, they should just call it flat tracking..

[Stusmoke]

Uh sorry, tracks today are longer and flatter than they were with two strokes. No, the problem with people getting hurt is because tracks are easier to ride. Easier + Going faster + Stupidity = James Stewart, yes I went there.







lmfao, I don't even know why they call is supercross anymore, they should just call it flat tracking..

One hundred percent agreed. Yeah you went there, and yeah I agree with you, the guy is an arrogant wanker.

But I think Cheb's post has merit too. There are alot of supercross obstacles getting intoduced into the mx tracks. Supercross is just that; Super. Its not designed for the average weekend warrior that just hits out to the mx track with his buddies to rip up some dirt. Its complex rhythm sections and very tight but fast set out is both extremely challenging and tiring to ride. So what genius decided to start throwing these complex and dangerous obstacles into MX? Its really stupid cos you've got all these guys that want to be fast and they'll end up over jumping or underjumping and eating dirt, often with more than just bruises. This hurts the sport cos they just get scared off. You watch those pro supercross vids and some guys think that looks easy. They'll go out and try it, never ride a dirt bike again cos they nearly died. every. Single. One of those riders has put in thousands upon thousands of hours of practise and each one is VERY talented at what they do. Most of them spent a couple of thousand hours practising for mx before they went supercross and then took it easy to get good at the rhythms, alot of people don't do that.

All its doing is giving the sport a bad name, making it less enjoyable because you don't have the grounds to start jumping that shit and much more dangerous for when the guys that have been at it a long time DO jump that shit.

Just my 2 cents worth. Good topic Cheb

[factoryX]

But here is another problem, the current track layouts were developed for 4 stroke power characteristics. Long flat straights to obtain faster speeds(For show), flat 90 degree turns(So the rider doesn't lay the bike down due to the gyro effect from 4 stroke motors), 1-2ft tall whoops(Engine braking/Gyro effect = Endo), jumps placed farther away from the turn to reach the momentum required to clear flatter/longer jumps(For show), etc..

[VintageBlueSmoke]

OK! Good topic but (as usual) I have something to disagree with. If you were going to boil it down to the problem with motocross today...the problems is money and its relentless pursuit. People are not racing for fun anymore, they are not searching for sponsors to support their racing habit. They are trying to strike it rich. Promoters want TV time to sell to sponsors - that's where the big bucks are! If we were running around on grass tracks or up and down hill sides, it wouldn't be on TV and no one would make any money. Disagree? Look at other forms of motorcycling...desert, cross country, Enduro. Competition is much better there and much more interesting, but if you are not IN it, you'll never SEE it. No one is striking it rich there. None of those guys have even been on MTV much less have their own show.

When Supercross came along, it made the sport of motocross TV friendly but it also generated the need for bigger and more dangerous obstacles to keep that audience's attention for 7 minutes of programming and 3 minutes of commercials. But motorsports in general are not gladiator sports and TV knows it must balance the carnage within the event. You can't show death and dismemberment on TV without offending your audience (yet). They also don't want to block camera angles with berms and jumps so gone are those gigantic hills that block the view - and gone are the 2-strokes that fill the stadiums with a blue haze that blocks visibility.

Motocross was sacred for a time. You had the outdoors on one hand, that tradition which built the sport and on the other, Supercross. It was like Broadway and Film - coexisting unequally (financially) but both sides of the same coin. But promoters and fans were not satisfied. Outdoors started pushing their "gimmicks" to satisfy TV and fans with little concern for the riders. In Europe, they resisted the trend and put it in the rules that there would be no double jumps (unless naturally there) and limits in the rules for promoters and track designers. But then, since the FIM had sold off the rights to the World Championship to private promoters (today YouthStream), they succumbed to the argument that since the Supercross and Motocross stars are one and the same, it shouldn't bother them to leap a few jumps and allowed these Supercross obstacles to appease the TV audiences. Today, there is little difference between Motocross and Supercross except on is Outdoors which allows higher speeds.

Interestingly, I was watching the MX1 and MX2 event in France yesterday and was going to comment. There were a couple of camera angles, They'd follow the riders up the hill and into a turn and pause right on a UFO Knee Protector billboard. Even after the bikes were through, empty part of the track, for just 2 seconds - pause and cut away. Then the rhythm section into a hairpin. Big Fox billboard and Parts-Europe banner. Of course, you'd sell your best spots where they would be seen on TV, but it almost seemed like the racing was secondary to the amount of time each banner was displayed. Like the contract said, "we'll guarantee to show your banner for a minimum of 1 minute on TV (30 laps with 2 seconds per lap) - more if a rider goes down there!" I was also watching Thunder Valley but I wasn't so cenacle about it. I'm sure it was the same, I was just distracted by other things to notice.

[xandyx]

even in indoor supercross tracks, you have wider corners than it used, back in the days. someday even a road rider with small cojones to jump big tables and triples can go to a track and race, as it seems that don't require much skills.

[citabjockey]

I have to agree with the first poster -- i have the same perspective. I used to race back in the day and would LOVE to race again but cannot risk the stupid jumps.

Seems like a outdoor tracks could have multiple paths laid out such that the promoter can have different classes where some would bypass the sky shots (maybe with a set of off-camber S turns that requires skill without setting up riders for broken bones) and others would do the sky shots. The spectators could use the jumps for good viewing during those flatter races. Keep the Hills, reasonable jumps, deep loam, sand, whoops (but bypass the deep rhythm sections too) and there could be vintage racing every weekend -- just move a few cones and some tape around to have two courses in one. The way things are right now, all of my local tracks are off-limits to me.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

Ok, I went off on a rant there. I agree the tracks have changed for the worst. We were discussing our two main tracks here this weekend and some possible solutions. TV of course isn't an issue to us but the track developers really do not care what we, the riders, think. The tracks on TV are like that so theirs are too.

One thing I pointed out was that "back in the day" tracks were rougher. Braking bumps were larger than the whoop sections today and often continued around the corners (especially on sand tracks!). Ruts were left to develop and then merge and smooth out themselves. The only thing "groomed" was the start and maybe some jump faces. Now when we hear them complain about a rough track, and I guess they are rough considering you are trying to clear a 70 triple, but you get no sympathy from us "Old Timers". (Our track is currently in bad shape due to the rains and has rain ruts all through it. Some guys got out there with shovels to smooth it for our practice session but I wanted them to leave it. "We want to go fast" they whined. Only one guy later went faster than me when I was in the ruts!)

I am not sure I agree that turns in Supercross, or motocross for that matter, are not as tight as they used to be. Tracks today are basically the same design and width that they always were, but the obstacles are what is different. I will say this about the turns though. A track designer carves the track and maybe lays in the dirt for a berm but it is up to the riders to bed that berm in and most of that dirt is wasted as it is in the wrong spot. The problem is that most riders, 2 or 4 stroke only follow the route laid before them and don't MAKE their own lines. Watch the ALL 4-Stroke races and you'll see basically 2 lines through a corner. Neither is best for a 2-stroke. If you are the only 2 stroke out there, you have to make your own lines because the route of the 4-stroke is not the fastest for you.

Jumping a big gap isn't any different than jumping a table, except it looks WAY cooler or unless you don't clear it. Whoops today are small and in straights rather than bike deep holes all the way around the track. Sure, jump faces are not so steep (I'm glad for that!) and moved out of the exit of corners further and sure, they are not as big, but riders are jumping just as high so they can clear the big gaps. I don't have a good answer for gaps. I don't like jumping them. I don't like risking what's left of my body. But I also know that they are not going away. Riders need to learn to jump them if only to progress to the next level. However, local tracks SHOULD find a happy medium between tracks that are laid out for pro riders and then again, tracks laid out for the rest of us.

I did like that section of Freestone though...The 12 Pack. The big jump into whoops that only a maniac like Baggett would jump into, then you had the choice of the double at the end (far side of the camera), or the sweeper (near side of the camera). I'd like to see more of that as well as the hill turn that some of those guys were cutting the corner in the air.

I worked on a re-design for our track since we have so much work ahead. I hope I can convince them to change it.

[Cheb44]

Here is another thought I had after reading some of the posts.  I think as well that the tracks are designed for exciting TV.  Lets be honest though, most people watching are riders, a lot of folks don't remember or weren't around for the "heyday" of motocross.  More riders equals more viewers.  The sport was much more accessible to the average joe.  That's really what my post is griping about, we have alienated the average young kid from wanting to ride at the tracks.  Sure us older guys understand we don't have to go out there and be competitive to have fun but as a young kid if you don't feel like you can win or compete then race you won't.

Of course its not just the tracks as we all know its the bikes and the high cost of maintaining and owning them, which is one reason we are fighting this fight we have.

[Stusmoke]

I'm not sure what age group you mean by young but I'll offer a 16 year olds perspective:

You're right. While I don't feel it, alot of my "mates" feel like they are out there to be competitive and are layering on all the race-legal performance mods they can get whether or not their financial situation permits it. Stupid right? They make it look like they're out there to make the big bucks.

Ok, I went off on a rant there. I agree the tracks have changed for the worst. We were discussing our two main tracks here this weekend and some possible solutions. TV of course isn't an issue to us but the track developers really do not care what we, the riders, think. The tracks on TV are like that so theirs are too.

One thing I pointed out was that "back in the day" tracks were rougher. Braking bumps were larger than the whoop sections today and often continued around the corners (especially on sand tracks!). Ruts were left to develop and then merge and smooth out themselves. The only thing "groomed" was the start and maybe some jump faces. Now when we hear them complain about a rough track, and I guess they are rough considering you are trying to clear a 70 triple, but you get no sympathy from us "Old Timers". (Our track is currently in bad shape due to the rains and has rain ruts all through it. Some guys got out there with shovels to smooth it for our practice session but I wanted them to leave it. "We want to go fast" they whined. Only one guy later went faster than me when I was in the ruts!)

I am not sure I agree that turns in Supercross, or motocross for that matter, are not as tight as they used to be. Tracks today are basically the same design and width that they always were, but the obstacles are what is different. I will say this about the turns though. A track designer carves the track and maybe lays in the dirt for a berm but it is up to the riders to bed that berm in and most of that dirt is wasted as it is in the wrong spot. The problem is that most riders, 2 or 4 stroke only follow the route laid before them and don't MAKE their own lines. Watch the ALL 4-Stroke races and you'll see basically 2 lines through a corner. Neither is best for a 2-stroke. If you are the only 2 stroke out there, you have to make your own lines because the route of the 4-stroke is not the fastest for you.

Jumping a big gap isn't any different than jumping a table, except it looks WAY cooler or unless you don't clear it. Whoops today are small and in straights rather than bike deep holes all the way around the track. Sure, jump faces are not so steep (I'm glad for that!) and moved out of the exit of corners further and sure, they are not as big, but riders are jumping just as high so they can clear the big gaps. I don't have a good answer for gaps. I don't like jumping them. I don't like risking what's left of my body. But I also know that they are not going away. Riders need to learn to jump them if only to progress to the next level. However, local tracks SHOULD find a happy medium between tracks that are laid out for pro riders and then again, tracks laid out for the rest of us.

I did like that section of Freestone though...The 12 Pack. The big jump into whoops that only a maniac like Baggett would jump into, then you had the choice of the double at the end (far side of the camera), or the sweeper (near side of the camera). I'd like to see more of that as well as the hill turn that some of those guys were cutting the corner in the air.

I worked on a re-design for our track since we have so much work ahead. I hope I can convince them to change it.

I also agree with your original post but I didn't wanna be a post whore so I didn't include that. Stupercross, as it shall hence forth be known by me, has become a pretty huge tv statement. The tracks have been changed for the four jokes extra weight and as accurately pointed out by WTFactoryx; their gyro effect. These two attributes ARE a factor in the four stroke engine and has to be tailored for. The tracks have most definitely been changed for the four stroke:



Watch that then look at the 2012 Vegas round. Everything is just so damn different. Where are the berms, where are the 180 degree turns? Gone my friends... The four joke can't pull it off and that made them look bad so they had to change it.

But thats getting off topic. I think the first step it getting good at the stupercross obstacles in mx would be corner speed; alot of these obstacles are straight out of corners and thus, if you don't maintain your speed you could be on a date with the dirt. If you watch the pros come out of a really slow and hard corner into a section of quads and triples, you'll notice they take the first one very slow to land perfectly on the downward slope of the next jump. That lets them pick up speed and they increase the jumping length from there as they pick up more and more speed. Now picture a kid trying to pull that off. theres gonna be three things happen: splat, scream, and an add on ebay for a hardly used dirt bike that scared him off them forever.

And all of a sudden you have very few new riders to the sport and it caves in on itself. So not only are these supercross jumps and obstacles dangerous, annoying and take away from the fun factor, they are taking riders from the sport

[Cheb44]

Exactly, we have a big problem on several levels.  As far as tracks go I would be happy if they just took out some of the gaps, leave the length that should make everyone happy.  It may be awhile till we, as two strokers, have enough power to get the tracks back in our favor.

No matter what I want to see this sport I love grow, and we can't do it if people are worried about crippling themselves.  It will always be dangerous but it could be made both challenging and safer.

[Stusmoke]

You said it mate.

Now I'm pretty weird in that I have very little regard for the safety of my body. Theres a couple of reasons for this: Lack of intelligence and me being very into technology; with that in mind I'm fairly confident that by the time my various knee, shoulder elbow etc injuries really start catching up to me I can just swap it out for something else. I'll be the darth vader of the motocross world...

Anyway thats just the nerd in me talking my point was: If someone comes out of a corner and sees the motocross equivilent of the grand fucking canyon in front of them there is two things they can do: Panic brake, often resulting in an endo and pain. Or Panic GAS. Depending on their cornering speed this can sometimes be the better option.

Whatever way you slice it, the sport can't grow if amateur ridings are axing themselves on these fucking things