Old essay about fake Two Stroke racing efforts...

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Want to know something INTERESTING???

Once again no disrespect to Mike Sleeter, but ever since they went to press with the whole "Factory for a day" thing and all that, I smelled a RAT in the soup... It didn't seem logical to me that a company would choose this method to showcase the merits of several of their bikes side by side. Don't get me wrong, it could only bolster the 450SXF's credability if the privateer they chose went out there and got ANY sort of results at all..., BUT I was also thinking to myself that it would discredit the 250SX 2t quite a bit to hype this thing the way they did, and give the public the impression that a fast guy from KTM was going out there on the 2 stroke, and then have him pull a "Charlie brown kicks the football" moment and not even qualify, or perhaps run dismally in the main on TV.

We heard fair amount of hype about Factory For A Day "ONE LUCKY PRIVATEER IS GOING TO GET TO RACE HANGTOWN ON MIKE SLEETER'S FACTORY KTM450SXF... BECAUSE MIKE HAS CHOSEN TO RIDE A 250SX TWO STROKE AT HANGTOWN!..." What they aren't telling you is that Mike Sleeter HAS HARDLY EVER QUALIFIED IN THE MOTOCROSS CLASS...

http://www.amadirectlink.com/.../proracing/index.asp

I checked all the AMA Motocross Results Archives going back to Hangtown 07 which is the first national where he did timed qualifying for the Motocross Class. So far, and I have been looking, I haven't been able to find an archive of the results for the 2009 year. I'm still trying though!

His results, while riding a KTM450SXF, were:

Hangtown 2007 - 42nd Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Washougal 2007 - 36th Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Thunder Valley 2007 - 49nth Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Glen Helen 2007 - 37th Place Qualifier KTM450SX

Thunder Valley 2008 - 48th Place Qualifier KTM450SX
Washougal 2008 - 42nd Place Qualifier KTM450SX

Bear in mind, only the top 35 make the cut.

Public Relations is a complex game, with lots of ways to work the angles. I think KTM got exactly what they wanted out of this years Hangtown national. The black helicopters outside tell me that perhaps they got what they planned to get... Their new 350 4T came out shining brighter than Mike Alessi's "Jersey Shore" podium talk. One lucky unknown guy got his golden ticket to the chocolate factory onboard the 450 4T. And, a guy who had never, or almost never, qualified in the Motocross class went out there ON THE 250sx and did it like he always does, and "Took the fall" perfectly.

I'm about to head out to Pennsylvania for a Memorial day weekend of riding, and I should be loading up right now. But I wanted to write this out and post it immediately when I saw how Sleeter's bad results had dissapointed 2 stroke fans. I saw that a few people were scratching their heads while perhaps looking for their answers in the wrong places.

Don't blame the 2 stroke is right! Sleet actually improved on some of his past results and 46th wasn't far off his average. And, he's older now!

KTM is a brilliant marketing machine. They know where it pays to dump a lot of money into promotion... Mike Alessi costs more money than Snooki! They know how to generate positive press. "Unknown guy is FACTORY FOR A DAY!... Makes the main on borrowed 450SX-F!" And, they also know how to use marketing sleight of hand.

If you're like most people, you probably got the impression that Mike Sleeter had a "Factory" KTM 4 stroke that he was vacating for this 1 round so that he could ride the 2 stroke, and having a "Factory" bike, with your number on it, to lend out to one lucky privateer makes it appear that you are a factory guy, granted maybe a less well known factory guy. And being a "Factory" guy who doesn't qualify for the main leaves people with the impression that something had to be wrong, either with the rider, or the bike... Unless those people know that the guy in question hasn't qualified no matter what bike he was on, and of course that fact wasn't in any of the "Factory for a day!" fluff and hype.

It's not that KTM is working to kill their 2 strokes, they make great bikes everyone knows this and states it over and over. But I do believe they're smart enough to know that their 2 stroke lines will sell no matter what press they get. 2 Strokes are selling based on their merits these days. They have begun to regain popularity IN SPITE of more than a decade of steep bias in the rules, and the media. For a long time, the industry tried to stack the deck with mountains of pro 4 stroke hype, and an almost complete media exclusion of the 2 stroke. Now with the backlash to that approach starting to take root, and people like Brian Shuckhart (He qualifies, that's for sure!), John Nicolas, Mike Leavitt, Sedric Soubreyas, John Dowd (MB250 win at 338!), James Stewart (When he's riding, not talking), and Jake Weimer actually doing things that reflect positively on the 2 stroke, it appears that the "Mums the word when it comes to the 2 strokes" approach isn't working as well as it once did. I thought pretty soon some people in the industry would probably start to take a more active approach to downplaying the 2 stroke.

I think that's exactly what KTM did by publicizing Mike Sleeter's hangtown trial on the 250SX. What else could your intentions be when you put a guy who hasn't ever qualified out there on the 2 stroke and give this attempt more press than all of his other national rounds combined have gotten him?....

It smells fishy...

[Jeram]

similarly one could assume the following based on assumptions and hypothesis

1. That KTM were anti-four stroke for allowing Mr Sleeter to ride a 'factory' four stroke for so long without achieving results.

2. perhaps KTM has some 450s that arnt shifting off dealer floors due to the 350s introduction, they need to shift some stock so the promote the 450 at this event.

3. I also heard that honda-ninjas put a packet of thumb tacks in Sleeters 250sx motor, causing it fail; damaging the two stroke image further. hehe

[factoryX]

 The 2012 ktm 450sx-f almost didn't make production this year, and is based of the XC motor. Decoster had to convince KTM to build the 450. As for why he wanted it, in the MXA article DeCoster stated that Dungey would not have rode for KTM if they had dropped the 450.

[Jeram]

didnt realise the 450 was on the way out, nice post.

I think we also need to be careful not to pigeon hole KTM as a 'honda-esque' company
honda has a spite towards two strokes, whereas KTM operates like a business, its all about investment return.

If they did in fact do this publicity stunt to push four strokes over two strokes, it was purely for the sake of business.
And there's nothing wrong with them doing that.
So either way I wouldnt say something was 'fishy'.

again, just my 2c, hope nobody takes offence.

[factoryX]

Yes. The fact that they're pushing their own 350 into the picture means that they've had it with the Japanese BS.  Everything about KTM goes outside the box, Chromoly frames, up-to-date two/four stroke line ups, and their push away from the over powered 450. But, and this is a big but, why not do it with the 250sx?

[Shawn36]

The thread is a little misleading even though the title says "old essay", this little circus happened in what, 2009 or 2010??  Must have been 2010 because Sleeter than the 350 in 2011. 

Anyway, to clear something up Sleeter is not a "factory" rider in any capacity, nor has he ever been.  He was then and is now a KTM employee on the payroll as a development and test rider.  Now he just races amateur nationals.  Yes he was never going to qualify on the 2-stroke, and although this sounds more like conspiracy theory than anything there may be some truth to the twist that some capable privateer could take Sleeter's 450 and qualify on it while he missed the cut.  I don't remember if they actually did put anyone on it or not. 

Dungey's bike is a pretty radical design, not based on anything they had made previously except for the cam-followers which are shared with the 350.  Here's a link for an in-depth look at his bike pre-SX season.

http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/KTM/News/EXCLUSIVE-LOOK-INSIDE-RYAN-DUNGEYS-2013-KTM-450SXF-8333.aspx

[Suzuki TS250/185]

Well, some people might also glady buy a "Rolex" out of some guy's trenchcoat, smiling placidly the whole time. After all, it's just business...

In my book however, it is nothing but a pure sleaze move when the sticky dirtballs in our sport engage in their brand of shady promotion and anti-promotion techniques.


And to Shawn 36 yeah, we all got that part. Thing is, they didn't make that clear at the time in any way shape or form. Doesn't matter if you know already... but hey, most promotion is written for suckers.

KTM makes very good 2 stroke bikes. We all know that. But as far as being "behind" their 2 strokes and willing to back them up with some promotion [***which is the only reason you get to see ANY bike in a pro race, piloted by and expensive pro jock***] they are total cheap sell-outs just like everyone else.

* - Pro racing is a TV commercial.


 

[Super Trucker]

The last year 2-st where raced at the nationals in numbers was 2003, in  2004 there was 2 or 3.  In 05 there should,ve been a 2-st series, but no one wants to step up and start one.  Joe Montana has a better chance of winning the superbowl, than a 2-st making the top ten, time to move on. 

[Suzuki TS250/185]

The last year 2-st where raced at the nationals in numbers was 2003, in  2004 there was 2 or 3.  In 05 there should,ve been a 2-st series, but no one wants to step up and start one.  Joe Montana has a better chance of winning the superbowl, than a 2-st making the top ten, time to move on.

Yeah, but that is only becasue no one can collect a paycheck to ride one... The good guys are all bought up by the time they hit puberty and must ride FOOPERS, which means that ONLY local yocals try to hit the Nat's on a 2 stroke. No one's got any control over them via a paycheck, so they can try, but they are not National caliber riders for the most part.

Out on the track, with equal riders on board, a 2 stoke makes a 4 stroke look like a joke. That is exactly what the OEMs a so afraid of.

[Jeram]

Whoa there, getting a little too 'tin foil hat' for me

There is a big difference between a business legally and legitimately promoting one model over another, it's a simple game of numbers and profit that won't try to understand as I'm not an accountant nor a marketer.

However I can say that it's got nothing in common with pawning stolen watches.

If ktm thought a factory rider could smash the competition on a 250 sx they would Be doing or they would make it run a close second behind the 350. Why? Again it's all about money making!

[factoryX]

Whoa, really disagree on that one. Racing is a form of advertisement, people see pro's riding said bike and they in turn go buy said bike, and since the 350sxf is fairly new it needs as much publicity as possible. And if you are a factory rider you do as you're instructed, its called politics and Honda practically started it.

This is from Mike Coe, Honda Factory rider from the 80's(Trikes).


         For the last National of the year at San Jose in 1985, Chuck gathered together all of the parts for us to test and come up with a combo that we liked best. The testing session was held at Corona Raceway and was just incredible. While typical testing sessions were sometimes like splitting hairs to tell a difference, this day everything we tried kept making the trike faster and faster and faster.When we left the raceway, I was ecstatic at how the trike was running. I KNEW I would be at the front at San Jose NO question. I had just come off of back to back victories at the last two Nationals and was in top form as well. The cylinder that we chose for this race was a VERY custom reworked cylinder. The transfer ports were all epoxied up and recontoured and were VISIBLY modified. There was a boat load of work done to this cylinder. Chuck Miller my mechanic (and now current Honda Race Team Manager!) was convinced that the trike was clearly the best we had (using Turner components) for the season. The stopwatch doesn't lie. Somehow Steve Carter(Marty's mechanic) and Paul Turner felt that this cylinder was no good as it had clearly been run by them prior to making into our "pile" of leftovers for us to test. Well, San Jose comes and we go out and set fast time in practice and Marty(Marty Hart) is struggling. I had absolutley no issue's other than some slight jetting changes that just made my trike even faster. We were looking forward to wining three in a row!
          Chuck and I went to Sizzler that evening for dinner. Afterwards we went back to our hotel and were ready to call it a day. We were in my rental car when we came back to the Hotel and when we got there our Honda Box Van was GONE!!  We both went into a slight panic and Chuck started making frantic calls before calling the Police and reporting it stolen. Just about this time, Wes McCoy, the team manager got ahold of Chuck and informed him that the van wasn't stolen.  We both felt a huge relief, but then we asked, "Were is our van then?" We were informed that Marty was unhappy with how his trike was running, and that his mechanic just wanted to "measure out" my top-end to possibly make a duplicate for Marty to try early the next day. I didn't like the sound of how things were going..... Not the night before the last NAtional of the year!! Wes said "Don't worry, everything will be fine" "Just go and get a good night rest". I did not like it.  Chuck and I drove over to where Paul Turner had a friend with a shop there in San Jose. Nobody expected us to show up there. We parked about a block away and walked up to the open doors of this shop. Heres Wes, Steve, and Paul Turner all thrashing about and there's MY 3 WHEELER all torn apart!! I was LIVID! I started yelling at them asking WTF were they doing!! They just kept saying that they wanted to "copy" it so that Marty might be more competitive. Then Steve gets in my face saying I should be more of a team player and other crap like that. I had been getting royally screwed over for the entire year using the crap Paul Turner/ left over parts. I had it up to here with his and Steve Carter's BS. I let it fly.
             Well, I drive to the race track the following morning and Chuck can't even look me in the eye and looks as if he is really digusted. I get my riding gear on and when I look my trike over it's got a completly different topend on it!! I couldn't F**** believe it!! Chuck assembled my trike with a brand new top end, with no time on it. It promptly stuck in the first practice session. MY heat race just happened to be the first one of the morning. Chuck thrashed like a madman to put on another top end. In his rush, he assembled the engine with another cylinder that had been bored first over, and without realizing it, he put it together with a standard size piston. When I kicked it over it did start, but you can imagine what it sounded like. They promptly called my race to the start and I don't really remember where I finished. Its amazing the thing ran at all By now I'm on fire!  In between races I worked my way over to Marty's area. (we were supposed to be a team, but Steve and Marty always parked away form the rest of Team Honda) Anyway, they see me coming and Wes and Steve rush over to keep me away. Nothing could, and I got close enough to see it. There it was in all its Glory!! Martys trike had MY TOP END AND PIPE mounted. I was stunned to say the least!


Another one:
At the Loretta Lynn's National earlier that year(85) It was a two race deal. The first day was the motocross race which I won. I went 2-1 to Marty's 1-2, giving me the win. The next day was the woods race. I don't know how many of you out there ever ran one of the early woods races, but let me tell you, the start is KEY. After you enter the woods it is single file, no exceptions. There are very few places to pass if you can, but not many.

Donny Luce gets the holeshot and is riding very well. I think I'm in 4th or 5th and making good time. It is a long race. 3 hours or something. Guess what? These races are dead engine start. When the flag drops, you have to kick over your machine and go! Unknown to me at the start, Marty's trike fouls the plug and does NOT START! By the time his mechanic figures out he has a fouled plug its 5+ minutes later. Well, they get this BIG Idea thinking NO one will know. They throw Marty's trike in his box van and take it down the road some miles to where the course comes out near the road. They unload, throw in a new plug, and they wait until they can hear racers approaching. Then Marty takes off..... IN THE LEAD! Since it is such a long race you have to pit for fuel and goggles and stuff. Donny held the lead from the start, and I was being filled in during the pit stops of my positions and of the mounting fiasco with Marty and the race. It was clear that some serious stuff was going to hit the fan. Marty stayed in front and Donny was credited for second place and I was third I believe at the finish. Kawasaki had watched the stuff with Marty unfold and they protested.  The Promoter (Dave Coombs) was a very honorable guy, but Honda had such an influence on these promotors that he said he couldn't act appropriately. He said that Marty SHOULD be DQ'd, and that Donny should be the victor, and me second. After hours of behind the scene gesturing, they finally came out with the results. Donny first, MARTY SECOND and me third. Still totally bogus!!! I actually pulled in to the Kawasaki pits after the race because I was so mad at what was happening! Chuck informed me that if Marty didn't get at least 2nd place, he would have no shot at the points title.

[cnrcpla]

Look at it this way: If you were running a business, and you found a way to make more money, lets say selling a product "worth" 8k, over a product worth 6k, would you still try and make efforts to sell the 6k product over the 8k one? Its the same principal for factories selling MX machines. They would rather make the extra 2k selling the expensive bikes over the less expensive bikes. Obviously the 8k bike are four strokes and 6k ones are 2t's, but why would the factories try to make a 6k bike more appealing to the consumer when they can be making 2k more on something? They want to invest their money were they will make the most back, and if that means advertizing 4$ and making it look so much better, then that is what they will do. It all comes down to making the most money...

[Jeram]

exactly

[chump6784]

And you wonder where the tin foil hat term comes from. Ktm sell every full size 2 stroke bike they make every year, most at full price. They don't need to advertise them, its the thumpers that need selling

[evilscientistmoose]

If some of you want an idea of what two-strokes are up against, at least with the Japanese companies....I recently posted an article (okay, maybe I posted it quite some time ago) on the TSM Facebook page, where Superbike/Grand Prix racing over in Europe was being discussed. It was revealed that the Japanese had spent at least a billion dollars on their all-new 4-stroke bikes in an attempt to displace the old two-stroke 'junk'....meanwhile, grand prix race teams are dropping like flies, due to how insane the costs are to race a 4-stroke engine.

To that end, there's not much anyone can do other than simply stay away from The Big Four. KTM and Husqvarna are listening to you (somewhat), and if pride can be swallowed, there are plenty of screaming deals in the used market out there, and we all know how cheap it is to refurbish a two-stroke bike.

KTM's pushing the 4-stroke bike? They're simply trying to recoup investment, especially with the 4-stroke machinery. Once EFI hits 2-strokes full steam, however, the game is up, and Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Kawasaki are all sitting on billions of dollars worth of modern-day wagon wheels. KTM is already selling everything they make concerning the 2-stroke market, correct? I wouldn't panic about their pushing 4-strokes, especially if they're quietly updating the bikes we're concerned about, right?

Want to solve a problem? Quit hoping that the Japanese are going to change their way of thinking, they're not going to fall on their swords, especially with that much money sitting on 4-stroke investments; keep in mind that Honda is screwing up pretty much everywhere right now, most everything they're selling in the car business is bombing spectacularly, especially the 'new' Civic, which is quite possibly the biggest dud they've introduced in quite some time...and will be redesigned...again...for either 2013 or 2014...immediately right after the 2012 'new' release that just occurred, it's that big of a turd.

Honda is also facing criticism all up and down their vehicle line, because while the bodies have been spruced up a bit, most of the drivetrain that's in those flashy, brand-new 2012 Honda cars is pretty much rehashed crap from 5-10 years ago. Hell, the Odyssey minivan, with it's tragic failure rate of a transmission (they can't build an auto tranny to save their lives)...it still has the same, basic 3.5L V6 from....1999, but with a couple of mild changes.

In addition, apparently, according to Honda north America, there are no Japanese words for 'Road Noise', or 'Noise Reduction', so therefore, you can't drive one of these heaps without ear protection. My 2000 Odyssey is the loudest heap I've owned in quite some time, and this comes from a guy who daily-drives a beater 1989 Chevy DisAstro van with almost-open exhaust, and at least two door panels missing.

The auto magazines have been howling, as well.

In other words, either switch brands to a company that at least quietly wants your business...start hoarding used equipment, or build your own bikes. Japan apparently doesn't give two shits about you...on every possible level.