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Author Topic: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?  (Read 18564 times)

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Offline SachsGS

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2011, 07:54:07 AM »
That's crazy power! Makes you wonder why the powers that be even bother with 4T$.

Offline citabjockey

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2011, 10:12:59 AM »
Rotary valve is a bit tougher on MX, where you would like to keep the cases narrow. Back in the '70s CanAm built a long tunnel to at least get the carb away from sticking out the side of the engine cases (like a Kawasaki of the time) but its still bigger and heavier than a piston port or case reed engine. Machine work for a disk is also more expensive too. With that dyno chart saying HP significantly past 100  :o for a 250,

I really wonder what a case reed engine could really do? That dyno chart also shows a very 4T linear progression of power the higher you go in the range, no bumps anywhere. WOW. Does seem like it would make a great dirt bike engine (except you would NEVER have enough traction or you would need wheelie bars).  ;D  So, using similar engine control technology could you tone it down to a reasonable HP number for an MX bike? it seems like you could make a single cylinder and have a very usable powerband. 450 4T would not stand a chance against such a 250!

Now, where is it????
Yamaha CT3, RT3, MX125, SC500, Toy Prius, Diesel F250 (it all balances out)

Offline 2T Institute

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2011, 04:37:35 AM »
Rotary valve is a bit tougher on MX, where you would like to keep the cases narrow. Back in the '70s CanAm built a long tunnel to at least get the carb away from sticking out the side of the engine cases (like a Kawasaki of the time) but its still bigger and heavier than a piston port or case reed engine. Machine work for a disk is also more expensive too. With that dyno chart saying HP significantly past 100  :o for a 250,

I really wonder what a case reed engine could really do? That dyno chart also shows a very 4T linear progression of power the higher you go in the range, no bumps anywhere. WOW. Does seem like it would make a great dirt bike engine (except you would NEVER have enough traction or you would need wheelie bars).  ;D  So, using similar engine control technology could you tone it down to a reasonable HP number for an MX bike? it seems like you could make a single cylinder and have a very usable powerband. 450 4T would not stand a chance against such a 250!

Now, where is it????


it's called a Kawasaki Big Horn F9 350(well the engine anyway)

Offline bearorso

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2011, 07:59:55 AM »
The 'favoured' riders / teams are on engines that are into the 60+ HP range, in the 125s. Singles only - the commentators that said they were twins are more than 2 decades behind the rules. The engines based on 125 MXers, dissapeared nearly 2 decades ago, as well.

For dirt use, you'd have to keep the revs up  higher than MX 125 engines, once / if you could adapt to that (and blokes going genuinely fast on worked 250fs, are bouncing around the 10 to 13 +K revs) it would work on the dirt, but you'd have to be bloody talented. Not easy to use in the dirt, due to the Revs required to get into the working zone. That's the hard part with 125MX engines, the RR power spread would make it harder again. But, definitely blazingly fast if you could master it, and, if you could afford to keep it running. HP, costs, basically. If they could have been affordable / reliable to run, and easy enough for the average bloke to use, you would have seen 50HP MX oriented 125s.

The 250 TWINS, in the last years - the 'favoured' riders / teams were into the 120 +HP, just, from what a friend that worked in a 250 team told me.

As I've written many times before, we can blame Aprilia, just as much as Honda, et al, for the demise of 2ts in road racing. When it cost almost as much to lease a first line 250 2t twin, as it did to lease a Moto GP bike, it sure as hell made it easier to go for the 'cheaper' option of warmed over control Honda 600s (I think the engines are at a lower spec thank World Super Sport bikes - at least that's what I've read - how do you go from that level, to Moto GP 800s and 1000s, cleanly?), in bespoke frames. Same goes for the 125s - if you were not a 'favoured' rider, or team, you had / have, not a hope in hell of doing well.


'Controlled' class 125 and 250 2ts would have sorted this out, but the 4t push, is backed by the big boys. Controlled 125s, and 250s, of any stroke type, is what should have been implemented, if there was any sense to the FIM / Dorna series. Fat chance of that ever happening.

Offline 2T Institute

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2011, 04:33:32 PM »
There are NO 60HP 125's or 120HP 250's. Best I have heard of is Jorge Lorenzo's title winning 250 at 109HP. The 125 graph I posted was done in the Aprilia race shop.

There is not reason why a MX 125 could not take a big jump up in performance.The Aprilia does not use RPM or tricky ignitions or big carbs to get it's HP. They use very clever duct geometry and perfect piston and cylinder cooling. Aprilia kept developing engines the Japanese stopped in the late 90's.

Offline Premixed

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2011, 05:27:19 PM »
something you guys are fogetting.  the 125 GP bikes are twin cylinder.  the mx bikes are single.  when you spread load the combustion event over multiple cylinders it is always more efficient. thats why you can get something like 60HP from a 125 twin road bike.  you cant compare the GP bikes to two stroke road going japanese sport bikes because they are heavily restricted from the factory.  the NSR250s make something like 45hp from teh factory, and those things are good for 65+ is you breath on them.

in 2001, the 500gp bikes made 190hp.

you will have to google to find it. but there was a man who combined 2 CR500 jugs and made a 1000cc two stroke.  it made 240hp.

Offline 2T Institute

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2011, 06:43:37 PM »
Maybe a quick check 125cc GP engines have been single cylinder since about 1986. MBA or Morbidelli had the 125 twin and that was banned then they had a 'split single' which was banned also.

The Aprilia 250 fires both cylinders at the same time, but multi's do make more top end than a single. However in 250cc National (single cylinder) karting which is under going a resurgence here a CR250 powered kart lowered a lap record by 3 seconds, was very close to the twins.

The customer GP 250's are massively lighter than the road going bikes(they have to be) most are around the 100kg mark, the road bikes around 130kgs.

Can anyone find eveidence of the Trick Racing CR500 twin running?

Offline factoryX

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2011, 07:51:09 PM »
I have to look but there was a twin cylinder cr500 hill climb vid on myspace about 4-5 years back. Nevermind, it was twin engined cr500, lmfao

http://www.myspace.com/video/austin941/cr1000/4072493
« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 08:40:48 PM by factoryX »


I ride an 03 yz250, wait 04, wait 05, what ever, they're all the same #$@% YOU!

Offline TMKIWI

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2011, 08:16:15 PM »
That 250 power curve is flatter then I imagined.
Nice. ;D
If you don't fall off you are not going hard enough

Offline 2T Institute

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2011, 09:39:00 PM »

Offline Premixed

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2011, 03:23:01 AM »
yea, these littlte dudes were rotary valve.


Offline mrhp

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2011, 09:34:08 PM »
The KTM mx engine is about as good as it gets power wise, and it's actually too peaky for many mx riders out of the box.  It's about a 36hp motor.

KTM certainly knows how to build more power than that - their gp efforts I'd put in the high 40's or very low 50's...but they never made it work for an mx bike...



The yz motor is around the 32-33 mark on that scale - and has an awesome character - rolls on at various throttle openings very low in the rpm range.  makes them easy to ride - and easy to corner very fast....which turns good lap times because the rider can get on the throttle early and smoothly while cranked over.


Im told an honest 39-40hp is the absolute limit gp ktm 125 saw that would hold up during a race.  Between huge RPM fluctuations and the riders over revving them in the air, the dirt, and poor cooling compared to a road race bike..and whatever other elements...it does not seem over 40 is possible for an mx 125. 

Im told husky had 40 hp motors that wouldnt make it one race, 38hp motors that were 50/50, and 36 horse motors that would make every race to the finish line...

In any event - the pipe designs are certainly much more aggressive for the gp bikes than the mx bike...and I thikn that plays a role.  I've always wanted to build a "GP" style engine and try it on the moto track - but experience tells me it will suck..as with common modifications that currently add power - some rideability almost always goes out the window!

Even 4 strokes experience this - as many dirt track engines are just too hard to ride fast on an mx track, and although they crank out lots of hp - they go slower...even with a dyno chart that looks brilliant compared to any two stroke (of half displacement)

Offline SachsGS

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2011, 07:59:04 AM »
I was always told that the gap between the torque peak and horsepower peak was too narrow on a GP 2T (or 4T) engine to make it suitable for the dirt and now the suggestion has been put forth that it is more of a reliability based issue,any comments?

Offline Super Trucker

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2011, 10:56:33 AM »
Given both road racing gp and mx 125's run the same engine, does anyone have any info in terms of what hp each makes, as well as the rpm of the redline ?
I imagine the gp bike would be tuned as the ultimate top end screamer but would like to know the difference between the two.

Not really Ben, they are the same bore/stroke but ends there. I hear stories of 40odd HP MX 125's but have yet to see the dyno graph. GP 125's are not peaky at all they are very forgiving, they have peak power at about 12,700. The gold standard for many years has been the Aprilia RSW and followed by the RSA, developed by Jan Thiel. Which is a 54 X54.5mm 125 rotary valve engine, has a 120mm long rod connected to a 107g piston with a 0.8mm ring.42mm magnesium flatslide Delorto carb with S-DAS 2 electronic control.Fully programmable ignition that controls ignition/power valve and power jet. The S-DAS system links ,ignition to power valve to TPS to gear position to fueling to detonation(the 250 to lean angle), so in an instant if the detonation counter has hits, ignition is retarded fuel is added, if the dets stop, timing restored and fuel reduced......all in the blink of an eye.
Pipes are universaly titanium construction.
Safe to say a decent 125 GP engine in a MX frame would lap the best mx engines, unfortunately this is the last year for 125GP at a world championship level. You will not find a better tuned 2T engine
HP


 
  SRS racing in Itali sells a .8 ring piston, called the racing piston, for Honda 125,s. Pistons for other makes are available, flat top for the RM, etc. Would a .8 ring piston have a shorter life span and how many hours do you think it would last ? thanks

Offline 2T Institute

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Re: 125cc gp vs 125cc mx?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2011, 10:09:04 PM »
The real problem is piston cooling, something which Aprilia spent lots of time working on. Fill them full of fuel start them run WOT untill the tank is dry be it on a dyno or track and it will not overheat or detonate. A 125 mx v's GP still has the same shape curve albeit a bit higher up the rev range than the mxer. 125GP bikes have a great spread of power due to the servo contrlled power valve. A typical life span of a GP piston is 500kms which is about 3 meetings(less in a GP team with GP budgets), pipe designs are not 'aggressive' at all they are just designed how they should be. I can assure you the Aprilia GP 125 runs roughly similar port timing to mxers.How hard do you think you would have to ride a 125 with 15 more HP/8-10ftlbs torque at any point in the rev range?

You can get a 0.7mm ring even the thin rings are to stop the ring getting trapped, I have seen no problems and no reduced life span using them. Try Wossner 54mm 125 rings they are pretty much 0.8mm