Interesting Stuff On Vital MX

[KXwestYZ]

After we had the chat about handicapped 4 strokes I decided to post on the vital mx forum about how its unfair 4 strokes have this handicap, I've always steered clear of other motocross sites cos I thought they woldnt have members who were at all interested in 2 stroke-

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/westyz,777553?page=1#topic_778136

I posted this thread and to be honest I was really impressed that maybe 85% of the responces have been supportive and constructive about the plight of 2 strokes...

Not sure if its same on other sites but thought I'd share this as a positive experience I had. Maybe things are changing out there..

[miedosoracing]

I was surprised you weren't shot on site.     I had posted this a couple days prior. http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Joke-Bad-golfers-and-4-stroke-riders-have-something-in-common,776544 I think the 4 stroke guys are getting worn down.   

[meger z]

well done.But what the 4t people need to understand is swept volume a 2t dose not have the power stroke of a 4t.Although a 4t fires on the 4th stroke that stroke is twice as much as a 2t, because of the the ports on a 2t are open half way down the bore.This is an advantage that the 4ts have as well as twice the displacement and must be used in any argument of 4t =2t 4t people never think of that.   

[Hondacrrider]

All i can say is WOW! These guys are definitely interesting in the way they talk, and the way they view things. One guy said that he had owned a 2 stroke, but had no where near the talent to ride it, he said that his four stroke covered that up. Four strokes are KILLING talent and good form.

[JohnN]

You're a brave man for posting on that site....

Thanks for mentioning the site and acting with dignity and intelligence. I truly believe that by stating the facts as we see them instead of telling folks they are dumb or stupid for their choice to race four-strokes will be the way to bring back the two-strokes.

I'm actually surprised they were so nice to you!! Guy B is the owner of Vital and he commented and even asked a question... usually he just says something brief and not so nice about two-strokes... but then he makes a bunch of money working or the Big 4 manufacturers...

[eprovenzano]

KXwestYZ excellent post, well stated, your expressed you opinion and let others comment without being argumentive.  

In my opinion, the racing would be so much better if it was both strokers and smokers.  I believe that both bikes will handle the track obstacles differently.  For example, (In my opinion) I see the strokers as a bike that prefers to rails turns, and the smoker as one that square up turns more, is easier to change lines, while the torque of the stroker will allow it to get out of a corner to set up for an obstacle differently then the way the smoker puts the power to the ground.  This (again in my opinion) shows there will be more areas on the track where the bikes would react differently.  I see more passing, closer racing, more exciting for us, the MX fan.

[Chris2T]

Interesting replies. I especially liked the one who said the whole "handicap" concept made him look at 4 strokes differently now. If just ONE announcer at a Supercross race would mention that, if just ONE mx magazine could use that angle when reviewing a 4 stroke, it would start seeping into the consciousness of prospective 4 stroke buyers. I know i sure as hell wouldn't want to ride a bike that needed a "handicap" 

If you want to look at the displacement disparity in yet another way, think about if AMA rules forced 125cc 4 strokes against 250cc 2 strokes. Think about that for a moment, it's absolutely laughable right? Unthinkable right? Yet it's perfectly ok the other way around. Just goes to show what a superior engine the 2 stroke is. 

[JETZcorp]

Man, that handicap would lead to a total slaughter, wouldn't it?  The guys on 125 4Ts would be down ten seconds a lap!

[JohnN]

Jetzcorp, that's funny!! It amazing that the four-stroke supporters see their handicap as being straight up racing. They would all cry if it were reversed!!!

Sure the bike (four-stroke) is easy to ride because of a tame power delivery, but it's as slow as a stone! Especially when it's half the size of a two-stroke.

[miedosoracing]

Here's the question I posed for my good friend who argues with me about 2 and 4 strokes weekly.  I have always said, if the 4 stroke wouldn't have had handicaps, the 4 strokes would have never taken off like they did and the 2 strokes wouldn't have died. He said yes they would have bla bla bla. Same ol same ol about demand etc.  So this weekend while arguing I said, Ok, let's take a look at what you say and I say. If it would have been 125 4 stroke and 250 4 stroke from the beginning, and no 450F, would it still be 4 stroke rules. He paused and said, well, and really couldn't answer well. I said it would be about 50/50 in my opinion, and he somewhat agreed. He did mention the manufactures were pushing the 4 strokes with advertisement etc.  But I opened his mind up with that question.  Sure when compared to the 2 strokes the 450f is the key to their arguments.  But when you take that bike out completely, then you get a ....?

The reason I say 50% each is as follows. First, the 4 stroke is better for beginners.  The 4 stroke is better for women. The 4 stroke is better for some, in how they race.  But on shear power and the better bike, the others would sell. So again, my opinion is 50/50 or somewhere close. 

[JohnN]

You have hit upon the root of the entire problem... the only reason there are four-strokes in motocross is because of the handi-cap allowing them almost double displacement.

Any one that argues that the four-strokes would have taken off if they were equal displacement is sadly mistaken, it would never have happened at all.

Now that we are at this point, the four-stroke supporter argument has changed, as it has over the course of it's rein. Now they are saying that no one liked two-strokes, they were this, they were that... all conveniently avoiding the one and only reason... bigger displacement!!

I truly see this as the largest swindle in motocross history. A total shame!

The only way to get these folks to see the "light" is to be respectful to them, they are just confused and convinced their opinion is correct. Yelling at them and calling them names will have a tremendously detrimental effect and not help our cause one iota.

Which has been so brilliantly demonstrated by KXwestYZ in his initial post on Vital and in his follow up responses. Amazing and wonderful results can be achieved by following his example. Thanks again!

[guybmoto]

Guy B is the owner of Vital and he commented and even asked a question... usually he just says something brief and not so nice about two-strokes... but then he makes a bunch of money working or the Big 4 manufacturers...

John, since RupX pointed out TSM on Vital today, I figured it'd be worth stopping by to clear up a couple things that I noticed.

1. You're mistaken. I don't own Vital MX. I'm an employee here.

2. As far as me making a bunch of money working "or" the Big 4...I also happened to notice in another thread that someone commented that Yamaha was an advertiser on Vital. The last time I checked, they were still interested in selling two-strokes, too. Yes, they advertise. But that doesn't dictate opinion. The same goes for the other manufacturers.

3. Yes, I occasionally have fun with some of the two-stroke aficionados over on Vital. But that's generally when they bring up the notion that there's some kind of secret society where I'm supposed to talk up four-strokes, and talk down two-strokes. Or that I'm getting paid off. To clarify for the crew here, I grew up watching and riding two-strokes. I get that they're fun to ride, cheaper to maintain, etc. Yes, I still love the smell and sound of a two-stroke, etc.

4. I did notice one other thread where there was a quote from me in Racer X. "I think two-strokes are sort of like a past relationship. You  remember the good parts, and quickly forget the bad parts. There's a lot of nostalgia for the scent, and the sound, but the equipment and racing itself is better now." I don't remember the exact context of the thread that came from, but it's a personal opinion, and I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about from last summer.

During the intermission race at Unadilla during last year's National that featured both vintage and modern two-strokes, I was watching the riders drop into the Screw-U section, and back out. I also watched the pro class guys through there during one of their motos. Where a lot of the two-stroke guys were having trouble keeping the front end down, and were busy fanning the clutch, while almost universally, the four-stroke guys were motoring smoothly up the hill. There's a lot less flailing on the four-strokes. That's part of what prompted my comment.

Anyway, that's it for my quick stop by here. Have fun, and watch out for the black helicoptors.

[KTMguy]

I got to agree that there is a conspiracy theory theme to alot of 2 stroke fans posts.

I just like riding them, and I would love to see some at the pro races.

And i hope to see some manufacturers continue to develop new technologies to fully use the 2 stroke potential. Because I plan on continuing to purchase new bikes.

I think we can all agree on this.

[guybmoto]

I'll second it.

[KTMguy]

That is a funny ass quote though