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Author Topic: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum  (Read 15683 times)

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Offline Out of Order

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2010, 07:50:37 PM »
Weigh a Ducati frame and any modern chink frame. You will be surprised to know that a steel frame is actually lighter if built right. Meaning triangulated.

Offline eprovenzano

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2010, 05:58:12 AM »
One other thing to consider...  Metal does fatigue, regardless if its alum or steel...  The steel frame is much easier to have repaired then the alum.  Most of us have a steel welder and could make the repair if needed, but access to an alum welder would require a trip to a specialty shop.
Eric Provenzano
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Offline 2smoker

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2010, 06:24:45 AM »
I am all over pop-can made frame! Look at the Aprilia 550 ,TM's and the new 4 stroke Yami! :-* They make the bike stand-out and it blends better with everything else!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 06:30:12 AM by 2smoker »
Formula over substance will ALWAYS sell more.

Recovered

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2010, 07:15:51 AM »
Mad,I am aware of the benefits of water cooling.That being said as a woods bike I wouldn't mind an air cooled engine.I have ripped radiators off after some big crashes in the woods the ended my day of racing.So you add up the cost of the ended day and the cost of repair during the week could get a little costly.maybe I am just getting cheap in my old age.   :)

Buy some radiators guards!!
Well rad guards are good on side impacts.I'll give you on example where they don't help.on my cr500 I crashed real hard in a rock garden during a hs and flipped the bike 2-3 times bike skipping across the rock garden after that.Well it pushed the pipe up so far that it mangled and tore the mounts off.Might have been better if i didn't have the guards for that one.Doesn't happen often but is costly when it does.

Other than the radiators, would an air cooled bike have finished the day after the same crash? What about the rider? After a crash like that, I go home. I don't get a paycheck from it. I think most guys would call it a day. If it happens to a pro, they keep radiators etc. in the trailer. They would bolt them on and go. Still not seeing the benefit of air cooling.

Offline offroader

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2010, 08:44:33 AM »
mad,i think an air cooled bike would have finished as long as the exhust stayed in the manifold.The rider would have finished also as he had no broken bones.As far as spare rads and replaceing them when you are in a hs in the middle of the woods it is not possible to replace them especially if the hoses are ripped off or the rad is puncutered and puking coolant out of it.As you know you would wind with an overheating problem.Now you would need a top end and a new rad.lol Like i said doesn't happen often and water cooling is not a major complaint and maybe i am just getting old that is why i said air cooled.

Offline ford832

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2010, 03:52:47 PM »
In many cases,steel frames are heavier than aluminum frames-it depends on the frame.Honda's early CR frames were heavy and also way too stiff.In later years,they thinned them out in order to feed some flex in to the chassis.If the bike I wanted had an aluminum frame,I'd buy it though I would prefer a steel.A couple things always bothered me about aluminum frames.One,the aforementioned bolt in the aluminum frame though most have a steel insert though when a friend has one of his spin in the frame of his CRF-well,there it was as the insert was made inside the frame.The other concern was the thickness.The spars look pretty beasty but in most cases the wall thickness is very thin.Having had aluminum frame guards a few times over the years I eventually switched to plastic as my boots tended to rub them either through or paper thin over the course of a season.I couldn't help but wonder how thin my buddys CRF spars had become over 3 years where his knees rubbed against them.Unfortunately he declined my suggestion we drill a hole to measure it-all in the name of science of course.As for the reasoning being it,Honda initially seemed to start it as an engineering exercise but these days it's all economics.Steel frames need to be bent,welded,gusseted cleaned,primed painted etc and have more individual parts.Aluminum frames generally consist of no more than 5-6 pieces that are either cast,forged or extruded.It's more cost effective these days to mass produce an aluminum frame than a steel one.Does anyone honestly think the companies would offer a much more expensive unit that performs the same function no better and charge the same $$ for the bike?Didn't think so.On the other hand,I'm glad my bike has an aluminum swingarm instead of a steel one.Of course,the swingarm is an unsprung unit so you can't really compare them as similar in function either.
I'd rather a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

Offline admiral

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2010, 05:08:24 PM »
i just hate working on aluminum frame bikes. everything is so hard to get to with those huge spars. as far as air cooled engines, i remember how they over heated in slow going/hard use and then the jetting was all over the place when hot. i don't miss air cooling at all. 

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2010, 07:41:54 PM »
I will certainly admit, an air-cooled bike likes to have some speed on its side.  Motocross used to be a faster sport than today, but I imagine a high-rev-low-speed racing environment like Supercross would really put the strain on an air-cooled machine.  For the kind of riding I like to do, however, which largely consists of desert and forest roads (yes, you can go from deep forest to barren desert in five minutes here in Oregon) there's always a lot of air flowing over the cylinder.

There are a lot of things I love about my Husky, but I've always been dissatisfied with its cooling.  It fell victim to the widespread fin-shaving campaigns everyone was participating in during the early-80s, and it shows.  I was drilling my friend on bike identification (because I could) and showed him a string of Huskies, asking for displacement.  I showed him a lot of '70s models, then I showed him an '82 250.  He thought it was a 125!  Even Maico, who were always great with cooling, sold their soul a bit.  While their cylinder looked the same, and the fins actually stayed fairly consistent, they constantly removed more and more of them.  Take a look at an '83 and compare it to a '74 radial.  Have a look at the distance between the lowest fin and the cases.  On the '83, you could put a beer there.  On the '74, you might fit slice of bread, if you mash it with your fingers.

No wonder everyone switched to water cooling.  The air cooling didn't work, because they took 50% of the cooling surface away whilst cranking the power ever higher!  That's not to say the big fins worked as well as radiators; they didn't, but they got the job done as well as needed, and gave the bikes yet another layer of personality that we have been duped out of lately.  Well, I should say, the personality that the rest of you have been duped out of. :P


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline JohnN

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2010, 08:09:14 PM »
I love fins......









Just not on dirt bikes.... sorry  :D :D
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Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 08:21:28 PM »
You forgot some.











By the way, did you notice that three out of the eight "fin" pictures we posted were associated with Maico (or Mako)?  There's the Mako brand fins, the Mako shark, and of course, the Maico motor!


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline TotalNZ

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2010, 08:40:39 PM »
I've seen a number of steel frames crack and even break in half, even a relativly late model KTM.
Can't remember seeing an alloy frame broken in half.
With the obstacles you encounter in modern motocross ie jumps with 100ft or over gaps strength is a big issue.

Offline JohnN

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2010, 04:50:53 AM »
Total NZ - for your viewing pleasure!!  ;D



To clarify, the bike was a "home grown" CR500 conversion. From eye-witness accounts the weld separated at the front "Y" part of the frame. This caused extreme stress on the rest of the frame and after a big jump, racer Scott Elderfield found that his bike was two instead of one!
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Offline offroader

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2010, 05:47:51 AM »
Now that could make for a really bad day! :o

Offline losec

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2010, 09:08:01 AM »
well at least engine maintenance will be easier than ever  ::)
I never crash -I just make unexpected decelerations

Offline TotalNZ

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Re: Frame weight difference between steel and aluminum
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2010, 03:16:46 PM »
Total NZ - for your viewing pleasure!!  ;D



To clarify, the bike was a "home grown" CR500 conversion. From eye-witness accounts the weld separated at the front "Y" part of the frame. This caused extreme stress on the rest of the frame and after a big jump, racer Scott Elderfield found that his bike was two instead of one!
Ouch, that could've been nasty.
Well now i've seen a broken ally frame for sure.
There doesn't seem to be much damage to the bike, did he feel it start to go and pullover i wonder.
She would've been a sweet ride before that little mishap.