Direct Injection - for and against

[Out of Order]

All I have to say is WOW!!! I just read this after my computer was down since last night. Oh Commie China and Commie Al Gore are idiots. Al needs to preach his climate change in China, they'll listen to him. This is all I'm going to say about this subject, because if I do I'll be sent to Gitmo for hating Al Gore and commies.

Envirofit looks promising, but will the poor people of SE Asia buy it. Here is a little lesson about SE Asia countries, most of them are communist countries. Meaning they don't give dodo about there people or anything. They would rather put a bullet some where it don't belong for stupid reasons. Ok enough about this subject, time to move on.

Will KTM bring out a DI two stroke? Like Mad said, I'll believe it when I see it. Is it possible to DI two strokes, hell yea. You just need higher CPU speed, like a 32 bit proccesor. That's because the injectors need to inject at a certain time. Funny thing is 32 bit proccesors have been out for cars for a while and are not that expensive, but it's still an infant technology. Years ago I saw an article that had the Bimota V-Due 500, they took the stock ECU off and put a Motec M400 on it. It worked like a champ, no problem at all. But there are two problems, one the motec is over $4000, secondly I can't find the article on the net anymore. So some one took it off the net. Don't know why

Finally the biggest problem is the AMA. They changed into one big fascist company that would make Benito Mussolini a very very happy man, and would make me a pissed off man. The Japanese want control over everything, and the big culprit is Honda. People see this, but their so dumb they still buy brand new $10000 bikes from them. I will always refuse to buy a over priced, over weight POS 4 stroke.

That's what I think and I'm sticking to it !!! Next.

[Chris2T]

i can't discuss this subject without being a little schizophrenic.

On one hand i dearly love all the great qualities of the traditional 2 stroke - the whole visceral appeal of the sound, smell, feel, look, cost, ease of maintenance, getting so much from so little, etc. they are just the perfect egnine, imo.

On the other, if 2 stroke mx bikes don't change with the times i can't imagine they would stick around. And i'm not talking about emissions, i'm talking advancements in performance and technology. Half the remaining 2 strokes are based on old designs. It's simply a matter of time before the technology just gets too old to compete at any level. the writing is on the wall and carburetors are clearly on the way out. sad but true. Small manufacturers like Maico and Ossa are keeping the flame going, but it will take a much larger effort using more advanced technology. If the YZ250 had a complete revamp and at least adopted EFI it would be a start. Aren't there any Big 4 executives who are passionate two stroke lovers like us?

One thing that i'm not schizophrenic about is the desire to see displacement parity brought back to motocross. Nothing that needs a handicap to win should ever be considered the top form of racing. the worst is the people in charge who pretend there's nothing wrong. I can't express the level of disgust i have for them.

[MMS]

tell me why, if this "technology" exists, why no one is banking on delivering it to the market.

Well firstly Orbital have been doing this longer than anyone so they're not only streets ahead of everyone else, they have a list of patents out on it and related componentry as long as your driveway. So it'll be very difficult for anybody to bring anything decent directly injected to the game without their assistance.

Secondly, they're not soft enough to roll over and let the Japanese walk all over them and they've obviously taken a lesson from Mr Kaden at MZ all those years ago and have made sure not to give them the chance to steal it either!

Against that, anything they've been involved with has worked and worked  bloody well. I see no reason to doubt that an off-road motorcycle using a DI 2-stroke engine and their know-how would be any different.

[Chris2T]

tell me why, if this "technology" exists, why no one is banking on delivering it to the market.

Well firstly Orbital have been doing this longer than anyone so they're not only streets ahead of everyone else, they have a list of patents out on it and related componentry as long as your driveway. So it'll be very difficult for anybody to bring anything decent directly injected to the game without their assistance.

Secondly, they're not soft enough to roll over and let the Japanese walk all over them and they've obviously taken a lesson from Mr Kaden at MZ all those years ago and have made sure not to give them the chance to steal it either!

Against that, anything they've been involved with has worked and worked  bloody well. I see no reason to doubt that an off-road motorcycle using a DI 2-stroke engine and their know-how would be any different.

Actually, BRP's E-tec is more advanced than Orbitals engine. E-tec's injectors do all the work while Orbital has an external air pump to assist. The difference is that the E-tec's voice-coil injectors can work at much higher rpm than Orbitals. The Orbital engine is said to be extremely reliable, as is the E-tec. Madscientist i appreciate your input but i've been around 2 strokes for 40 years or so and don;t like being lectured to. The fact is there's a worldwide effort to eradicate 2 strokes because of their emissions, and the eradication has taken hold. You don;t really believe that a sudden awakening to the benefits of good carb tuning is going to reverse things do you??

[ford832]

Personally,I'm still waiting for BRP to resurrect the can am dirt bike line.They have the technology,skidoo and outboard both.Seems to me it's a pretty short step for them.

[meger z]

take a look at this company http://www.2si.com/index.htm

[JohnN]

Hey!! It's got fins!! I know someone who is going to love this....



I'm trying to figure out what the extra piston is for, looks like a "super-charger" possibly to compress the fuel air mixture?? I'll have to read the site later.....

Very interesting... thanks for the link.

[Hondacrrider]

Madscientist- I don't think that stupid generally exists as much as you make it seem. I think that 'uneducated' exists more than anything.

[JETZcorp]

I don't like that design.  All that gibberish above the piston just says "four-stroke" to me.  Not that my weird little idea doesn't suffer that same problem, but still.

[Out of Order]

I don't like that design.

JETZcorp doesn't like this design. But it don't have electronics or a solenoid to control fuel. I'm not really sure how that injection system is supposed to work, could be like mechanical injection. I'll stick to a BRP or Orbital type system.   

[JETZcorp]

It's nice that there's no electronics to deal with, but then, you can also say that about a carbed 4T.  What we're looking at here looks, to me at least, to be a big heavy 4T style pig that just happens to fire every other stroke.  50% ain't too horrible, but I don't think it's right for bikes.  I could see that having a future in cars, though.

[reefmuncher]

Hey read through this topic a little while back, just though I'd join and jump in! 

I'm a road bike fan so my views are more based on I like two strokes but unless they mean certain environmental standards then there is no way they can be licenced with increasingly stricker standards.

So for me I am totally for Direct Injection if it brings back a type of motorcycle which is more powerful per cc and lighter. I figure if they did then tuning firms would invest time in developing such bikes and it would be a win win for everyone involved.

Aparently the issue and reason why DI is not being pushed is that emission standards are still such that they can be met fairly easily with fourstrokes. If the standards get more strict, then it might become more attractive for advanced twostrokes to be developed. 

[GPRRacing52]

maybe this article is interesting.    http://www.2stroke-tuning.nl/media/artikelen/2takt_ktm.pdf

[reefmuncher]

Yeah really cool article that!!

[MMS]

Nothing to do with fuel injection but during the 08 season the 125 KTM also run a kinetic energy recovery system (KERS), so Bartol perfected a system to run on a 125 GP bike which even the mighty budgets in F1 have struggled with.

The man is god like, what a shame we have been deprived of seeing what sort of 500cc GP bike he could have built, maybe we will get some comfort from him being more involved with the off-road side of things from now on.