Direct Injection - for and against

[MMS]

Sorry, I have never seen the internal combustion engine that is more than about 30% efficient, regardless of DI or fuel used.

If you search the net for papers by Professor/Doctor Robert Fleck of Queens University Belfast you might find figures in some of them. But certainly it is readily accepted that thermal efficiency in the region of 50% is commonplace in DI engines. Some manufactures claim 70% for the largest diesels but that seems a bit fanciful and I don't believe has ever been independently verified.

[Recovered]

It's obvious that the two-stroke isn't the root of all environmental evil, but that doesn't exactly mean it's doing cleansing work, either.  I'd like to hear the Mad Scientist explanation for the blue haze that hovers over cities in SE Asia, which was notably reduced when the government decided that 4T was the law.

And don't think JETZ is getting soft here, because I should note that this move utterly destroyed the local economy, as no one could afford the maintenance or the "upgrade" itself, in spite of being forced to do so.  The EnviroFit solution, which retrofitted the 2T to DI, proved not only to be cheaper than a regular 2T in the long run (fuel savings) but also cleaner than a 4T.  But the fact remains, the old conventional 2T left a haze, the DI and 4T did not, or at least not to nearly the same extent.

HOWEVER!!!  I think this point might actually be mute in the future.  I present to thee, the future of fuel, algae!  All the carbon in algae-based fuels must first be sucked out of the atmosphere, making an algae fuel (in theory) carbon-neutral.  And because the raw product is virtually identical to crude, your resulting fuel is nearly identical as well, meaning that no modification of the engine is required.  Above everything else, I think this path should be pursued most vigorously, because it would put an end to 100% of these little fuel usage and emissions debates.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm rather passionate about the algae.

FUEL Preview - Algae

Ever been to LA? It has the same TYPE of problem, in that the lay of the land causes gases and particle matter to be trapped, unable to be cleansed out by normal motions of air. The same thing happens in China. It happens here in a town next to me. I can go up to a friends house in the hills overlooking the valley and you can see the trapped pollution. Scientists KNOW this it what actually occurs, but they are now PROVEN crooks, desiring to fleece you of not only money, but your liberties as well.

AND, lets not forget, the chinese were NOT tuning their little underpowered mopeds (obviously). If the 2T was tuned correctly, you wouldn't see the blue fog. It really comes down to ignorance in tuning. Now the chinese are payor theming for it. I don't care about them, nor do I feel sorry for them.

[Recovered]

Sorry, I have never seen the internal combustion engine that is more than about 30% efficient, regardless of DI or fuel used.

If you search the net for papers by Professor/Doctor Robert Fleck of Queens University Belfast you might find figures in some of them. But certainly it is readily accepted that thermal efficiency in the region of 50% is commonplace in DI engines. Some manufactures claim 70% for the largest diesels but that seems a bit fanciful and I don't believe has ever been independently verified.

MMS, help me out here. I did a search and found nothing. I found the Professor, but could find nothing he wrote. Post a link if you can.

Thanks.

[JETZcorp]

LA does have the same type of problem, but LA is also a lot larger.  I mean, if you take some city in which your average citizen depends on a 2T scooter that he must SHARE with other families in the neighborhood, and compare that to the average resident of Los Angeles, you would expect to see massively more pollution coming out of LA.  Yet, filtering masks aren't common in LA, while they are in SE Asia.  This is because their health system is being ravaged by lung disease, at a far greater rate than LA.  And when you take into account that perhaps as much as 1/3 of LA's air pollution was created in SE Asia and delivered via the jet stream, you start to get a feel for the perspective here.

And let's get real here, you're not going to be able to teach everyone over there to tune their carbureted 2T scooters to get rid of it.  They don't have the the money to blow on jets, and they certainly don't have the time to research it and dick around in the garage with their money-maker.  No matter how good a technology CAN be, it doesn't do any good if 99% of the buying public can't access it.  That's where the DI conversion comes in; it allows the bike to roll out of the EnviroFit shop ready to go with no messing around whatsoever.  The cost is covered with a micro-loan by the company.  It's fast, it's easy, and it's cheap on an every-day scale.  And regardless about whether you feel sorry for the Chinese (who are dropping their scooters and buying cars, by the way, thanks in part to Uncle Sam's spending spree), you should still feel sorry for yourself.  Pollution that's made in China doesn't stay in China.  A lot of that haze wafts its way over here and affects the lives and safety of all the Prius-driving hippies that crowd the streets here in Portland.  Pollution doesn't give one flying ---- about borders, and when it comes to coming up with solutions, neither should we.  Go into where there's a problem, fix the problem without creating new ones, and get out.  DI fixed their 2T pollution problem, and it'll fix ours, however small ours may be.  That's not up for debate as far as I'm concerned.  The debate is whether it's the best technology to apply to the problem, in light of other possibilities.  It's easy to blame the problem on public ignorance, but it's an amazingly difficult thing to fix.  The traditional 2T doesn't have to smoke, and we don't have to have a Federal Reserve, but it does, and we still do.

[Hondacrrider]

Mad scientist, are 3 circuit carbs available for cr125's, and if so how much do they cost, I am interested because I am getting kind of tired of having to carry gas in water bottles in my backpack on longer trail rides, and then I still have to drive into a gas station part way through my ride. Although, before I do get a 3 circuit, is there a way to make my bike more efficient while keeping power with my current carb? I will soon have the info on my bike so you guys can help me with setting up my bike for the race season coming up, it's just that i have to hack away the ice covering the door  of my shed holding my dirt bike, a video of the bike revving is on it's way.

[MMS]

MMS, help me out here. I did a search and found nothing. I found the Professor, but could find nothing he wrote. Post a link if you can.

Thanks.

Unfortunately more and more of the research work at QUB is being commercially funded and therefore the results less likely to find their way into the public domain so that probably explains why it can't be found.

I find out stuff at a personal level.

[MMS]

And let's get real here, you're not going to be able to teach everyone over there to tune their carbureted 2T scooters to get rid of it.  They don't have the the money to blow on jets, and they certainly don't have the time to research it and dick around in the garage with their money-maker.  No matter how good a technology CAN be, it doesn't do any good if 99% of the buying public can't access it.  That's where the DI conversion comes in; it allows the bike to roll out of the EnviroFit shop ready to go with no messing around whatsoever.  

I'm very new here but I hope you don't mind me saying that you seem to have a slightly different outlook to some of the others. Could I hazard a guess that you are either younger or maybe just a bit more realistic about things?

It's disappointing to see the vote going against DI as it will reinforce the arguement by some that 2-stroke supporters are just a bunch of "has-beens" wallowing around in a haze of blue smoke and nostalgia. I love 2-strokes, both from a nostalgic point of view (70's road bikes, TZ race bikes, motocrossers) but also because I totally detest the way in which the removal of the two-stroke engine from the motorcycle scene has been engineered in such a callous and deliberate fashion.

But the thing is, the entire motorcycle industry in ambling along OK without 2-strokes and they will not come back at a meaningful level without bringing something new to the table. Telling people that they need to buck up a bit and learn how to set up a carburator, while possibly valid in many cases, simply will not cut it. However a motorcycle launched along the lines of "the 2-stroke is back, it's better than ever, and this is why................" just might.

I've loathed them for years but now have to admit that the very latest 600 sports bikes are absolutely epic, the handling, practicality, weight, reliability, and sadly now even the fun factor of them blows any stroker away simply because they are about 15 or 20 years more advanced than any 2-stroke road bike. This situation will eventually extend to motocross as well and the stroker will not have a way back, I love my Maicos but I also like to ride the best machinery available and if things don't change that may eventually by default have to be a 4-stroke purely from a chassis/suspension/braking development point of view. (*edit*-could I just add that if this unhappy situation does arise it will NOT be a Japanese bike, I will certainly not support those who wielded the knife in the first place)

I sincerely hope not but I also hope that some of the marketing people at KTM or Aprilia who might be considering investing money in DI 2-strokes aren't watching this forum to help gauge opinion.

[JohnN]

MMS - You have just succinctly put into words what I have been feeling about DI and what will be required to bring two-strokes back to the forefront.

Just "repackaging" what had been done in the past just will not cut it. There are boatloads of reasons that folks switch over to four-strokes, some real and some imagined. But when reading comments from four-stroke supporters one of the biggest reasons that they prefer the 4 over the 2 is.... now get this... they don't have to mix the gas!!

Some of the other reasons include torque (yes I realize that a bigger displacement bike has more torque) and ease of clearing obstacles without worry. Another is the lack of having to shift so much, in fact on the wish list of many four-stroke racers is the Recluse clutch!

Of course the bikes are shiny and new and have the "latest" styling and suspension. But almost every reason for these guys to love the bikes is for ease of riding. Your pour gasoline into the tank and ride! Simple.

For two-strokes to make a serious comeback on all levels, they will need to have some kind of "easy button" for marketing purposes to help sway legions of racers to switch. Telling them that they're stupid will do absolutely nothing to help our cause, and in fact hurt it in many ways.

I have heard second hand, that KTM does have test bikes that are DI. One of the guys that rode it thought it was great... the question is when will KTM release these machines? Or will they never do so?

It seems to me that shiny and new is a huge selling point for millions. Ease of use is the second....

Let's change the question to how can we forward our cause and make it shiny, new and easy for the regular guy?

[Recovered]

Jetzcorp gets the prize You said it...you want DI to fix stupid. It wont fix stupid. It won't fix bad rings. It won't fix leaky crank seals. It won't fix shitty oils. It won't fix stupid. We, as a group, need to STOP looking at China and India as a bellweather to guide what we do here. Your post makes my point EXACTLY.

3 circuit carbs are available for everything and anything. But you still need to understand tune up.

The brakes on a 1999 euro bike (read:anything Brembo) will stop as good or better than anything 2010. I know what the comic books write. They exist to sell you products and services YOU DON'T NEED.

If you like vintage Maico's, you would like new Maico's. The problem is with the "vintage" guys, especially Maico "vintage" guys. 99.99% of these guys have never seen a new Maico, yet they slam them with authority, like they have a knowledge of them. I posted a link on the forum somewhere of an article that John posted. A guy got off his late model HONDA 4T, sold it, because his 1981 490 Maico was BETTER in all aspects than his Honda was. Here is a guy who tells the truth. He was FASTER on it too. Let's see...air cooled, conventional forks, 2 shocks, and he says it is a better bike. And a steel frame.

It's time to get real and stop BS'ing ourselves and each other. The problem is with US, the guys who can't/won't/don't know how/won't listen/don't care how to tune your junky, smoking pig up.

I could care less about China, India, Japan or 4T's. Air cooled or not, your bike should not smoke or spooge. 99% of them do both. It's shameful.

Don't forget, the same people who are wearing dust masks in China smoke enough cigs to kill a dinosaur. That's right, CHINA SMOKES, way more than in the USA. Look it up. So don't tell me it' all 2T problems over there.
DI will NOT fix stupid, like I said to begin with. We were told that 4T's would make off road motorcycling better. It was a lie. DI will NOT save the 2T. That's what the who issue is.

Rant over, but know this. I could write a book to TEACH tune up. 75% of the riding population COULD learn something from it. But I read threads like this, and I come to the understanding that I would be wasting my time.

[MMS]

I could write a book to TEACH tune up. 75% of the riding population COULD learn something from it. But I read threads like this, and I come to the understanding that I would be wasting my time.

Exactly, and that is where you loose YOUR arguement. The buying public is changing and how and what they are sold must change also. You don't need to write a tune up book, the market is full of them but people don't want them. They don't even want to go to the bother of reading what's in the books never mind go to the bother of putting it into practice.

As John says, where do you turn when people rejoice in not having to perform that soul destroying task (sarc) of not having to mix petrol. Never mind they'll have to change engine oil and filters more often than their underwear. Face the fact that if the buying public were smart and shrewd they'd never have went for the 4-stroke agenda in the first place, but swallow it they did, hook line and sinker!

I'll give the list of bikes I own at present, not to impress but to clarfiy my own stand point,

1974 RD350
1975 GT380
1978 RD400
1979 RD400
1984 NS400R
1984 RD500
1985 RG500
1994 NSR250 SE MC28
1981 490 MAICO
1984 500 MAICO (2 off)

So, I like my 2-strokes. But I own and run a motorcycle shop and make my living riding and working at all the modern stuff as well and more importantly spend all day every day dealing the motorcycle buying/riding/owning public. I have sitting in my workshop a TM125 crosser that I fixed for a guy a few months ago (nothing major, the bike is sound), Ohlins shock, Ohlins forks!!!!!!!!, Brembo brakes, sand cast crank cases, best of everything but he can't sell it because people "aren't sure about it".

I mean my god, what is there not to be sure about with a list of components like that? The problem is in reality that it doesn't say Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha or Suzuki on it, that's what they're not sure about. Disgusting?....................yes, disheartening?.....................yes, sickening?............................yes, but sadly also reality. 

[Recovered]

And your claim is DI will fix stupid?

Not gonna happen.

KTM is sitting on it (that's the rumor) and won't release it. They would have the corner on the market. Yet and still they sit on it. Why? It won't fix stupid.

The 4T didn't fix stupid, only amplified the problem.

And you are correct about the book. Why do you think I have't done it yet? Because it won't fix stupid. People will continue on with what they do, even if proven wrong. They would rather go on the internet, or worse yet, write Motocross Action and get their tune up there. How stupid is that?

I have found people are lazy (in more ways than one) and you can't fix that either.

So, I stand by my original statement. Not because I am smart (I'm not, I just refuse to ignore facts and lie to myself) but because I know stupid can't  be fixed. I have been "in the business" most of my life. So I get it. In fact, I'm so synical...I'll stop here.

BUT...........many have DI and such, but none have adapted it to a dirt bike yet. It will be more trouble than it's worth, even if you don't premix. That's why one guy I knew had a 4T...he didn't wan't to premix. I doubt he could run a pop up toaster.

[2smoker]

The Asia Development Bank estimates there are 100-million two-stroke vehicles in South and Southeast Asia - each producing the pollution equivalent of 50 modern automobiles. The combined emissions of these 100 million vehicles equates to 10 times the emissions of all of the automobiles in the world....

Envirofit is using Orbital's OCP technology in retrofit kits to convert millions of two-stroke taxis to direct injection in the Philippines. Three-wheel taxis used in that country, which are roofed sidecars attached to motorcycles, are blamed for much of the heavy air pollution in Manila and other major cities in the Philippines and Southeast Asia.

Envirofit says its OCP kits reduce carbon monoxide emissions by 76 percent, carbon dioxide by 26 percent (one ton per retrofit per year), and hydrocarbon emissions by 89 percent, and two-stroke oil consumption is reduced by 35 percent, The heavy exhaust smoke disappear using this systems. Moreover, the 35 percent increase in fuel efficiency results in annual savings of ~$470 to the taxi drivers; thus, the ~$350 kit pays for itself within a year, and thereafter the drivers' incomes are increased substantially (~40 percent) for the remaining 15-20 year life of their vehicles.

The OCP two-stroke system is also used in Mercury's Optimax DFI outboard engines, in Tohatsu's TLDI DFI outboard engines, in Bombardier's SeaDoo personal watercraft, and in motorscooters manufactured by Aprilia, Piaggio, Peugeot and Kymco.

[JETZcorp]

You say over and over again that DI can't fix stupid.  Thing is, it has.  The stupid is still there in spades in SE Asia, as with everywhere else.  The DI bikes don't smoke.  The carbureted bikes do.  These are the same people with the same level of stupid, the only variable here is the bike, and the problem is fixed.

And remember, we're talking about fixing stupid in the emissions department.  I'm not claiming that DI is going to fix the stupid that causes a bike to run with less-than-perfect power.  You're right there.  But, it will fix the stupid that would cause Al Gore to douse our beloved two-strokes in biodiesel if he ever saw one.  It's definitely a sad fact of life that people in general don't want to dedicate hours upon hours upon hours tinkering with their bike as though they were the tech crew for a Le Mans racer.  It would be nice if we could all do that.  It would also be nice if world poverty and warfare were ended, too.

If the MARKET is so lazy that they don't even want to mix oil and gas, then we need to craft the 2T for this market.  That's how the forces of economics work.  When you complain about how the public is the problem, and that they should change to conform to the old technology... Well...  Let's just say that sounds distinctly "Honda" to me.  Not so extreme, and certainly the idea of writing the book is less ethically horrible, but the principle is still the same.  Don't fix the bike, fix the people.  Not feelin' it here, boss.

[2smoker]

I would like to participate/spectate to any indoor Motocross races without choking on the air and having red eyes... I can deal without the smoke, just give me the sound and the snappy power of a 2 stroke and I will be more than happy! All the modern  DI systems that I know so far improved performance and reduced emissions big time without adding weight to the old concept? What is the problems?

Btw Mad, How do you know tha KTM won't release their DI 2 stroke?

[Recovered]

I would like to participate/spectate to any indoor Motocross races without choking on the air and having red eyes... I can deal without the smoke, just give me the sound and the snappy power of a 2 stroke and I will be more than happy! All the modern  DI systems that I know so far improved performance and reduced emissions big time without adding weight to the old concept? What is the problems?

Btw Mad, How do you know tha KTM won't release their DI 2 stroke?

We have been hearing about it for years. Have you seen one yet?

Head to a off road race and count how many pros are on KTM 2T's. Maybe 1. Yup, KTM's commitment to 2T's is right there.

Jetzcorp, again, let me say, if you think that DI will allow you to pour in oil and it will work the world over, in a RACE BIKE (I could give a rats ass about scooters)...I'll see it when it happens. As for Al Gore, pay very close attention here. He comes from a tobacco and oil family. He doesn't care if your dirt bike smokes or not. He doesn't want you on one PERIOD. You need to grasp that. DI won't fix that. If you think it will, you are setting yourself up for serious heartbreak. And, you constantly change the parameters. One minute it's that chinese are dying of lung cancer from 2T smoke (ignoring the fact that 99% of the population smokes cigs), the next is Al gore is peeing in your corn flakes. They have cars that are junk. Again, DI WON'T FIX STUPID. It will raise costs, the bikes won't look as "pretty" and they will still need some form of tune. Reality check here. When Mad Scientist says DI won't fix stupid, you need to look further than the end of your tail pipe.