Once again, because it's worth repeating

[Chris2T]

It's been decreed that it is UNFAIR to race equal displacement 4 stroke versus 2 stroke.

4 strokes, given a displacement handicap to compensate for the unfairness, dominate 2 strokes.

The domination is so complete that it has caused the near extinction of the 2 stroke machine

Riders, Magazines, and Manufacturers then trumpet the superiority of the handicapped 4 stroke.

In summary: 4 strokes cannot win on even terms, but when given a handicap are lauded for their superiority = PRETZEL LOGIC

[JohnN]

Chris - you have boiled it down to it's essence. It's simple and easy when looked at that way.

Highly touting an unfair advantage has become the norm. Pretty sad.

A lot of folks are wearing these...

[G-MONEY]

Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.

[JohnN]

Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.

But this is why us two-stroke fans are so upset about the lopsided rules that are currently in place in Pro racing!!

We are not asking that they stop making four-strokes or that they should be banned, we are only looking for a fair race. Straight up displacement is fair. An 80 to 100% displacement advantage is not fair.

[GlennC]

No kidding, I hear four stroke guys constantly brag about new superior technology, Yet cling to the displacement handicap.

With equal displacement you would see the good in both two and four stroke.
I don't hate the fours, I just prefer the lighter weight and higher power of the two stroke.
Some guys will always prefer the smother power and traction of the four stroke.

[miedosoracing]

Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.

I'd have to say I don't agree with that.     I don't think it is possible. The 4 stroke would basically have to run at 2 times the current 2 stroke engine RPM to match HP.  No 4 stroke MX bike could run at 24,000 RPM in my opinion, for even 30 minutes.

[GlennC]

Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.

I'd have to say I don't agree with that.     I don't think it is possible. The 4 stroke would basically have to run at 2 times the current 2 stroke engine RPM to match HP.  No 4 stroke MX bike could run at 24,000 RPM in my opinion, for even 30 minutes.

There are more factors than how often the engine fires, higher compression ratio, and Volumetric efficiency are in the four strokes favor.

It would still be a hand grenade though

[JohnN]

Chris you have it right BUT, we can build a 4t with the same power output as a 2t with equal displacement....its life exspectdency would be about 30 mins of run time but it can be done.

I'd have to say I don't agree with that.     I don't think it is possible. The 4 stroke would basically have to run at 2 times the current 2 stroke engine RPM to match HP.  No 4 stroke MX bike could run at 24,000 RPM in my opinion, for even 30 minutes.

But it could be fun to watch if only for a few minutes!!  

[Super Trucker]

The  4-st.  has  advantages  I  think  everyone  knows  what  they  are. But  that   doesn,t  mean  you  can,t  beat  them. Example  sunday  I   rode  on  a  friday night  supercross  track  for  the 1st time, he  has  22  friday night  races, there  are   riders  that  just  practice and race there, it,s  slippery- thick  dust  on top  of  clay-4-st. track. At  the end  of  the  day  and  after  a   crash, that  put  my  chin  and    injured  my  hand  in  the  ground.  A   vet expert  passed  me  on  a  straight  away, so  I  show  him  how  125,s  do it  and  pass  him  on a  flat  right  corner, then  90 ft. jump,  a  corner  and  a  jump  I  lead  him, he  passes   me  back  on  a  100 ft. plus  table top, I   couldn,t  clear  on  my  stock  06 cr125, the  next   bowl  turn  I   pass  him  on  the  inside  and  cut  his  outside  line  off, I   left  him  room.  We   went  back  and   forth   for  3  laps,  all   the  passes  were  very clean, both  of  us  are   just  having  a  fun  battle.  I   think  it  comes  down  to  seat  time,  who  ever  is  in riding  shape, and  can   hold  a  consistent  pace  and   on  lap  4 or 5  put  a   break  away  lap  in  and  run  riders  down, your  the man  at  the local  level.  It,s  alot  more  work  on a  125, constantly  shifting, clutching, ride the  rear  brake  and  front brake  a  little, to get  the  wheels  to stick, while  wfo  in  3rd gear  to  get  thru  a   fast  slippery  sweeper.

[Super Trucker]

Sorry  the  double  post,  he  was  on  a   450  Suzuki.  On  friday  night  the  track  had  something  diff., a  sunday  district  points, and  tripplecross  points. He   lead  vet a   for  2.5  laps,  so  he,s  a   solid   rider, the   125   coming  in  and  tru  corners  is   alot  faster. Like   the old  phrase  you  corner  for  dough  and  jump  for  show.

[JohnN]

Nice Story!! I love it...

The thing is when you get into the Pro ranks, the displacement advantage takes a step up. When you have the best racers in the world, on the best machines that money can supply and put them up against a journeyman Pro with some work done to his bike, you really start to see the advantages of displacement.

Unfortunately many consumers base their bike buying choices on what they see winning races at the Pro level. You can beat them over and over at the local level without making a dent. In fact many times you can hear the four-stroke doubters say that the two-stroke racer is cheating!!! How's that for a turn around?

By sustaining a displacement difference, we cause a boatload of problems. As can be seen by this simple example, the cheater bike is thought to be better and when the bike it's supposed to beat easily (cause it's smaller) actually beats the bigger one, they claim they are cheating....

Were the rules equal displacement, that silly argument would have no basis....

[Super Trucker]

Yeah  I  agree  John,  the  national  tracks  are  totaly  different, and  the  skill  of  the  riders.  It,s   been   done  at  the  top level, in  03  Pichon  on  a   RM250  spanked   Everts  on  his  450  the  1st   3  rounds. One  race  was  in  Holland ,  Everts  is   prob.  the  best  sand  racer  ever, and  Pichon   ran  him  down, battled, then  pulled  away. I  have  the  dvd, when  Pichon  caught  him, Everts  tried  to  knock   Pichon  down, you  could  see  Pichon  was  pissed, and  went  after   him, of  course  Pichon  passed  him  in  a  corner.

[scotty dog]

Didnt RC give everts a riding lesson at an MXdN? Was it 05? RC was on a CR 250, Everts was on his YZ 450. I might have the year wrong but i remember seeing the pics a while back....

[2smoker]

The  4-st.  has  advantages  I  think  everyone  knows  what  they  are. But  that   doesn,t  mean  you  can,t  beat  them. Example  sunday  I   rode  on  a  friday night  supercross  track  for  the 1st time, he  has  22  friday night  races, there  are   riders  that  just  practice and race there, it,s  slippery- thick  dust  on top  of  clay-4-st. track. At  the end  of  the  day  and  after  a   crash, that  put  my  chin  and    injured  my  hand  in  the  ground.  A   vet expert  passed  me  on  a  straight  away, so  I  show  him  how  125,s  do it  and  pass  him  on a  flat  right  corner, then  90 ft. jump,  a  corner  and  a  jump  I  lead  him, he  passes   me  back  on  a  100 ft. plus  table top, I   couldn,t  clear  on  my  stock  06 cr125, the  next   bowl  turn  I   pass  him  on  the  inside  and  cut  his  outside  line  off, I   left  him  room.  We   went  back  and   forth   for  3  laps,  all   the  passes  were  very clean, both  of  us  are   just  having  a  fun  battle.  I   think  it  comes  down  to  seat  time,  who  ever  is  in riding  shape, and  can   hold  a  consistent  pace  and   on  lap  4 or 5  put  a   break  away  lap  in  and  run  riders  down, your  the man  at  the local  level.  It,s  alot  more  work  on a  125, constantly  shifting, clutching, ride the  rear  brake  and  front brake  a  little, to get  the  wheels  to stick, while  wfo  in  3rd gear  to  get  thru  a   fast  slippery  sweeper.

What up with the SPACE between       every    words?? LOL using a Cambodian keyboard or what? lol

[2smoker]

Didnt RC give everts a riding lesson at an MXdN? Was it 05? RC was on a CR 250, Everts was on his YZ 450. I might have the year wrong but i remember seeing the pics a while back....

Remember Pastrana at the nations with his mighty 125???