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Offline miedosoracing

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2010, 05:25:59 AM »
good to hear you will be traveling this way often.  Maybe I'll go to the actual race next year?  8)
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Offline metal_miracle

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2010, 06:12:32 AM »
Whats holding me back from buying a new bike

is that the asking price for a two stroke gone so high these last few years and the bikes just got bng.

Offline bearorso

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2010, 06:20:05 AM »
It's interesting to see this.

KTM hold their cards relatively close to the chest on their 2t sales - no hard figures seem to be given, but their launch videos always give the impression that 2ts are continuing in sales growth, and I've read that 40 to 50% of their total sales may well be 2ts. Their 2t profits drive/pay for so much of their 4t development.

I rarely see big price cuts / incentive packages to sell off left over 2ts (other than the 125/150 KTM here in OZ), but you see, every year, huge incentives / price cuts on bikes, even the wildy touted 09 Bergs that were supposedly unobtainable.

I often think, just how pissed off must people be, after having paid the full wedge, or near enough, for their new bike, to see it sold for SO much less, or with a whole bunch of goodies, only a few months later? Both of these sale incentives hurt the resale of bikes, and must be doing damage to consumer confidence and loyalty.

I believe that we are seeing, even with Yamaha (and perhaps KTM), little interest in their 2ts - and this will continue whilst they have so very many left over bike stocks . From what I gather, the stocks of unsold bikes, rivals that of the seventies / early 80s when Yamaha tried to take on Honda and become the biggest MC company in the world. But in this case, it's ALL manufacturers, due to the global financial crisis. Bikes  just aren't being bought.

Another thing that I've read enough times on KTM talk, by various "Gurus" there, is that KTM have been selling bikes in the US for a long time, for pretty much cost price (at wholesale level). Done because the US is such a major market for them. Common sense might finally prevail , especially if they, and other companies, realise the massive middle class markets opening in India (KTM/Bajaj would certainly be aware of this) and China, as well as other markets. As it is, it seems the rest of the world is subsidising sales in the US - When I see the price difference (and I know the various duties and tax in US and OZ markets) it's beyond a joke, and I for one will not buy a KTM whilst this is happening.


Perhaps KTM are / have also been caught out by the demand for 2ts, and have not produced enough to satisfy demand, and are supplying more to the the markets where they get a better return on the sale, yet even then , they don't have enough product to meet the demand.

After seeing the efforts by that Dutch (?) dealership , that many had hoped would be the 2011 2t Yamahas, and now the South African dealerships that make the bikes look better , for what would be minimal costs to Yamaha to do, you'd think Yamaha would go that route, at least. I remember an article about Doug Dubachs 250 he used for the 09 (?) 2t challenge, where he fitted one of the 4t swing arms and rear wheel to get an easy few pounds of weight savings - much of it precious unsprung weight. It showed how little cost could be incurred to change an existing, old platform to help continued sales.

Even the lack of a linkage on the new 2t SXs may done specifically by KTM to push sales of the 4ts. Despite what they say in their press kits. So many in the US demand linkage. So , the 4t has the  'new' link, the 2t doesn't........bingo, another  sale of the 4t. By the way, I would much rather have a non link bike - just give me a shock with external bottoming control, such as the Fox RC3, and I'd be as happy as a pig in the proverbial. This is what I intend to do when I make a frame for my 500 - I do AF conversions, but I don't want an AF conversion.  :o :D  I'm lucky, I can make exactly what I want.

Offline JohnN

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2010, 06:43:40 AM »
Bear, you bring up so many excellent points here.

None of the Big 5 manufacturers want to publish their 2 stroke sales figures. For the most part they have been pushed down for multiple reasons, the biggest being that they are pursuing the four-stroke agenda. If you didn't of couldn't see it before this, it is now obvious to even the casual observer.

As for KTM selling their machines at "wholesale" in the USA, I would imagine that is true. Just add up the cost of the components on the machines, you'll come up with a figure that is higher than what the US market pays for the bikes.

Sure it would be easy for Yamaha or KTM to update the two-stroke line-up with minimal cost and maximum benefit. But is this what they want to do? Would this throw the proverbial monkey wrench in the works?

Imagine the issues of a slightly updated two-stroke outselling the latest, greatest four-stroke with all the bells and whistles. It could be a real problem for them. Probably in ways that we are not privy to.

But you bring up a good point, Dubach using a 450 swingarm and rear wheel to lower the un-sprung weight. Updates in the look of the machines to parrot the F models. These things would excite the two-stroke faithful and encourage sales.

Just why did KTM leave the linkage of of the two-stroke models? While the linkage system is the the end all and be all, having it on the two strokes could have added to their sales. That is if they really want to sell more two-strokes.

There seems to be more here then meets the eye.

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Offline bearorso

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2010, 07:02:46 AM »
 KTM at least pay some attention to their 2t line - just enough to keep them selling Very Well indeed.

The profits that they make, from 2, and Only 2, 2t engine units, that have had Minimal changes in over 10 (or more) years - just basic upgrades and developments, has enabled KTM to make the RFS, the XC4, the RC4, RF4, the new 350 engine, the various LC4s, the LC8s, RC8s, the split cylinder/cases Berg and the Sloper Bergs plus the ill-fated bloody car, have been their saviour.

Without the big sales / minimal production and development costs, that makes for big profits,  of the 2 basic 2t platforms, I believe KTM would have gone belly up, during the last few years.

Offline teriks

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2010, 12:18:14 PM »
<snip>
Just why did KTM leave the linkage of of the two-stroke models? While the linkage system is the the end all and be all, having it on the two strokes could have added to their sales. That is if they really want to sell more two-strokes.

I for one am glad they did not re-introduce the linkage on the two-strokes. (Even though I have to live with my 2006 250 sx for a while)
Why? Same as a couple of the reasons going two-stroke, simplicity and weight. (And if I were riding enduro, ground clearance).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2010, 12:27:33 PM by teriks »

Offline JohnN

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2010, 12:38:08 PM »
Quote
While the linkage system is the the end all and be all, having it on the two strokes could have added to their sales.

The above should read;

While the linkage system is NOT the end all and be all, having it on the two strokes could have added to their sales.

And of course it is only speculation on my part....
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Offline ACMX

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2010, 12:56:28 AM »
If I got a dollar for every time this worn out phrase has been touted by folks on other message boards, I'd have enough to buy a brand new two-stroke!!

This thread on Vital MX says it all. A guy who is interested in buying a brand new two-stroke. Yet is unable to buy one from his local dealer. Or any dealer in a two state area for that matter!

http://www.vitalmx.com/forums/MotoRelated,20/Vote-With-Your-Wallet,997759

So what's the deal? There are other manufacturers that continue to build, sell, service and update two-strokes. Will we support these smaller manufacturers or wait for the Big 4 (okay Big 5) to wake up, update their badly dated two-stroke machines, and begin selling them again to the two-stroke fans?

A disturbing rumor that I heard a while ago is that all of the other manufacturers are waiting to see what big red will do before they release a two-stroke. From all the negative news from the Red camp, it's sounds as though that time will not be coming from Japan or Austria (.... India)..

So it appears to me that our only real hope is to buy new machines from those manufacturers willing to build what we want. When I buy my next bike, I know who will be getting my money.

If they're waiting on Honda to release a 2 stroke we'll never see any new Suzukis or the like.

I really wish Suzuki would bring their 2 strokes back, and even Kawasaki if they fix their motor and actually get it to compete with the other 2 strokes. If Suzuki brought their 2 strokes back I'd have one in a heart beat, I kick myself for passing up on a clean 08 a while back (I'll find another I'm sure, but I'd love a new one!).

If Yamaha updates the 2012 2 strokes with something beyond stickers or a gold colored chain / wave rotor brakes I'll have a coronary, thats if they're even around then. With how abysmal their sales have been for the 4 strokes I wouldn't be surprised if someone up top kills the 2 strokes to save some money and push their 4 strokes harder. (Yes I know the smart thing would be to kill off the thing bleeding money (4 strokes) but I can bet they wouldn't do that).

Suki still produces two strokes and distributes them. Just not in the U.S :(
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Offline juliend

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2010, 03:57:17 AM »
does any1 have the numbers from ktm of how many 2 strokes compared to 4 strokes they have sold this past year?

Dunno what 2010 is looking like, but for 2009 KTM's 2 stoke sales were greater than 40% of all off-road bike sales. Pretty impressive.....


As far as the linkage, they did "extensive testing", and found that the snappier engine on the 2t performed better with the PDS setup than with the linkage setup used on the fours. So they kept it.... 


Offline MXLord327

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2010, 06:00:40 AM »
That's what they say in their sales literature anyway, I wonder if it is really true.  My guess is that it is just a cost issue - they probably still have a lot of PDS parts in house and want to use them up.

Offline Super Trucker

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Re: Want a two-stroke? We're told vote with our wallets...
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2010, 10:34:52 AM »
If  KTM  put  a  linkage  on there  bikes, they,d  lose  the  straight  carb  and  air boot. With  the  pds  shock, they  have a  power  advantage. It,s   possible   to  have  a  linkage  and  have the  carb  and  boot  be  straight  yet, but  they  would  have to  redesign  everything. And  that cost  money.