500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!

[Captain Russ 101]

I know alot of guys on here has to remember the 1986 Motocross Des Nations team of David Bailey, Rick "Bad Boy" Johnson and Johnny "O,Show" Omara.  How Johnny Omara on a 125 won against those 500`s on that open track over in Italy was amazing and RJ on is 250. 

[riffraff]

Every U.S. team during the whole 80's decade kicked ass, those where the days 

[eprovenzano]

I remember back in the day... I'm going to show my age here....  Marty Smith (at the time 125cc champ) would compete in the open class on a 125....  He did pretty well. and as I remember reading about it the comments were he had to keep it wide open to keep up with the big bores, and of course the engine blew once or twice...

[CCOADY454]

I remember back in the day... I'm going to show my age here....  Marty Smith (at the time 125cc champ) would compete in the open class on a 125....  He did pretty well. and as I remember reading about it the comments were he had to keep it wide open to keep up with the big bores, and of course the engine blew once or twice...

My old man got 12th in a hare scramble nationals....or maybe it was an enduro.  I can't remember and I've heard the story 100 times.  Anyway, he got 12th in a field of 140 on a 125 back in the late-late 70's.  He said the big bike were trying to power through the deep mud and ended up burying themselves.  He would scoot across and found the better lines.

[JETZcorp]

Reminds me of the story of Hodaka Ace 90s getting good results in big California desert races against big-bore Huskies and such back in the On Any Sunday days.  The little thing had the advantage of being really small, really reliable (designed in Oregon, represent!) and carrying gas in a 500-million-gallon tank.  After getting an early last place, the rest of the race was just a matter of weaving through the broken European bikes.

[ford832]

the rest of the race was just a matter of weaving through the broken European bikes.

Some things never change eh jetz?

[riffraff]

the rest of the race was just a matter of weaving through the broken European bikes.

Some things never change eh jetz?

Stuck your foot in that one didn't you? 

[JETZcorp]

Clearly, Euro bikes weren't particularly reliable in the really early '70s.  Later in the decade they got quite good, but if you bought, say, a 1972 Maico you had better get used to some serious maintenance.  Word on the street at the time was that before you even started the motor, you had to put many hours of work into the bike and get it right.  The guys who put all that into it were the local kings of the world.  The other 98% got tired of it bought Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha.  Even when it became possible to buy a European bike that was good to race right out of the create, Japanese-style, people still remembered the bygone days of loose bolt and ridiculous vibration.  But hey, even with all the weirdness and quirks, if you had enough balls and LocTite, no one was going to catch one of the Big Three (Maico, Husky, CZ).

[SachsGS]

As a collector of vintage motorcycles I've often wondered why there are ,comparitively,so many old Ossa's,CZ's,Maico's etc. still around and so few Yam YZ360's,Suzuki TM's etc. to be found. Surely the sales of the Japanese bikes exceeded that of the Euro's so where are they? And when I find some decrepit rusty old Bultaco the thing still runs, whereas the Japanese bike has been dead for decades.

Futhermore, without hesitation I'll ride that old DKW 30 miles into the bush ,humming the theme to "On Any Sunday" as I go, whereas the Asian bikes are ,at best, a garage queen. 

[JETZcorp]

I think the European bikes of the time were the ones owned and maintained by the more "hardcore" crowd.  When Papa Bear wanted to get his son a new bike for his 16th birthday, he wasn't about to buy some expensive European bike that would take a bunch of maintenance that neither he for his son would know how to to.  Instead, they bought one of those Yamahas or Suzukis, and then, being fairly new to the world of bikes, proceeded to thrash the thing.  Of course, this mentality probably only lasted a few years, as eventually the really hard-core guys started going to the Japanese bikes as well once they started getting really competitively fast.  But still, I think the European bikes managed to maintain a sort of "hand-crafted, low-production" mystique that collectors and restorers have latched onto.  I think this is the effect that has caused the number of Maicos appearing in vintage races, which used to be rather small, to now out-number the Big-Four.  I'm just speculating, of course.

[Paul P]

Yes, that is only speculation. Your post sounds like one of the older magazines that were getting a lot of revenue from one of the 'big four'. Having been around and riding all different bikes back then, I've had first hand experience racing both Euro and Asian. The bikes from Japan were not of high quality until the works bikes were shelved in the US. The Euro bikes held together much better than they were made out to be. The biggest reason the Euro bikes were passed over was that they were more expensive than the bikes from Japan. The exchange rate was very much in favor of the Japanese brands. A Suzuki TM 250 cost approx. $800 while a Maico or Husqvarna was about $1200. With the TM you still had to buy good shocks, flywheel weights to help the motor put power to the ground, fork kits or forks, good tires, decent grips, frame mods, good motor mount bolts that wouldn't snap when you tighten them, handlebars, ect. Most of the items to change came as standard equipment on the Euro bikes.
   A freind of mine was an avid racer throughout the 70's and when the Suzuki TM125 came out he had the first one I had ever seen. He made good money and previously rode a Husky 400. He was more of a 125 rider, so the Husky was a handful in the power. He wore the TM out in three months, frame, motor, forks, shocks, wheels were all trashed. His results were not very good, either. He bought 5 of them, one every three months before he came to his senses and bought a Bultaco 250. With the Bul, his results were immediately improved. He only spent money on normal wear items.
  I ride a variety of Euro bikes still, and they just keep running, they all have been very reliable and I would take any of them riding anywhere with no worries of a breakdown or worry that I had to work on one of them for two days before I went riding like you were led to believe by the magazines of the day or by the Motocross Action statements about the old bikes.
                                           Paul
                     
   

[JETZcorp]

Well, there we go.  I guess I was just trusting the magazines too much, because they did a huge amount of ragging on Euro bikes for build quality.  Especially Maicos, which even Super Hunky in his books says took a lot of preparation after opening the crate.

Still, going back to the original post I made that started this, I absolutely don't think they were as reliable as the Hodakas.  Those things were legendary for their lasting power, such that they ran one around the entire coast of Australia (or maybe just a big part of it, I'm not sure, but we're definitely talking a couple thousand miles of harsh climate) with no maintenance except gas and spark plugs.  It's easy to forget Hodaka today, but they're the ones who invented trail riding in America, and were just about the first ones to make something reliable as an axe.  But of course, they only lasted a little over a decade.

[Paul P]

WOw, you're gettin out there now. I've heard from actual riders talking about trail riding in the 40's and 50's, but they never mentioned Hodaka's on the trail, just Triumph, BSA, Royal Enfield, AJS, Villers, ect.  From my memories of Hodaka's, their motors were not a strong point.
  Again, they were cheap to buy and repair, thus the 'McDonalds' way of thinking for the masses of people trying to get into dirt bikes. I'd much rather have a Zundapp or Sachs, similar trannys to Hodaka, but at least they had powerful, very reliable motors.
   I bought a Maico 400 in 1977, uncrated it/serviced it, and a half hour later I was ripping around a track with it. After the break-in, check bolts and torque,nothing fell off, not even loosen in the first two months of racing. I raced the entire year, 35 races, two nights a week useing 3-4 gallons of gas, without any motor servicing needed; parts or repairs. I did inspect the primary chain and piston/ring, but I do that with any race bike. I spent Zero dollars to keep that bike running all season! I'm not counting tires or chain/ sprockets, grips or oil and spare filters.
  The Suzuki RM I bought the year before cost me as much in repairs and worn out engine and chassis parts as I initially paid for the bike. Sounds a lot like the way the big 4 are trying to get us with the 4 strokes today. 

[Chokey]

By producing the 300 cc WANKEL engine,it was debatet what it realy was,because it fired 3 times in one revolution so some people claimed it was therefore a 900 cc.

That's actually not true, although many people believe it to be so. A single-rotor Wankel only fires once per eccentric shaft (crankshaft) rotation. The shaft rotates three times for every single rotation of the rotor. That's why a single rotor Wankel is comparable to a single cylinder reciprocating engine.

[JETZcorp]

Well hell, a four-stroke only fires 0.5 times per crankshaft rotation, so a 250F should actually be called a 125F by that logic?