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Author Topic: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!  (Read 17155 times)

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Offline Turquine

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2010, 04:02:19 PM »
Actually, an '80s Honda XR 80 can easily beat any 500 2stroke, 450 4stroke, or 250 2 or 4stroke. I guarantee it! Of course, the track will be in my back yard. It's really pretty simple, it's the track. Take your 250 2 or 4stroke out on a fast desert loop with a CR or KX 500, Win, and you will eat roost. Only for a little while though, because soon the big 500s will have disappeared into the horizon. As to tracks, sure, on today's wimpy tracks where one rarely gets out of third gear on a big bore, and ridiculous whoops and short straights, a big 500 2stroke is at a bit of a disadvantage. As I've said before, give the bigger bikes just a bit of room to actually hook up and use that power, and they will beat the 250s. I'm talking about lots of 5th gear straights, smoother whoops, and at least one uphill that a 125 would be unable to climb if the rider's life depended on it. Even now, tracks are designed to favor thumpers over 2strokes, everyone knows this. Tracks for an open class machine should be designed for that type of bike. A CR 500 will never beat a CR 250 or CR 250f around a supercross track or a 250 outdoor MX track. They are too tight to take advantage of the extra power. Give it a real open class designed track and it will run off and leave any 250. Especially if it has a couple of really high, steep sandy uphills that would bog a 125. Your thinking is limited to what you currently see being done. Just because nobody's doing it, doesn't mean it could not, or should not be done.

Offline Paul P

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2010, 04:03:48 PM »
The older model Maico engines he's talking about were not more than a couple pounds different from each other, used the same frame, wheels, suspension.  Most tracks started getting slower after the 60's, so an Open bikes lap times were not as fast as the 250's. Jim Ellis had the Southwick track record with a 125 for quite a while, but at the time the track was set up with shorter straights and suited smaller bikes better.
                              Paul

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2010, 07:39:17 PM »
I like that 20lb rule for going between classes.  It's the kind of rule that you just KNOW applies everywhere.  But of course, when Maico say otherwise, they've got to be lying, because we all know that Maico lies about everything.

Anyway, at the risk of turning this into a Maico thread, I think I'll just expand on that "same bike, different engine" thing someone said before.  It's really interesting to see just how much is shared between the different classes of Maicos.  If you look at a 250, 400, and 490, there are only very few things that are different.  First, the 400 and 490 are the same bike.  The only thing different is the bore - even the stroke and transmission ratios are identical.  The 250 varies a bit more, they had reed valves starting in '81, as well as (obviously) a different bore and stroke, different pipe, and different cooling fin design, and different ratios.  The rest was identical though, even the crankcase was the same casting, with a piece inserted to make it smaller.  Even the legendary 760 was built on the same cases, and using the same clutch as the 250.  This is why the weights of these bikes were so similar, because the only place for weight savings was in the barrel, crank, and piston.  I'm not 100% on this, but I would venture a guess that the new ones do this as well.

Anyway, here's something totally different, regarding the first post.  I gathered that part of the point of this thread was to discovery why, if small displacement can be just as fast as, or faster than large displacements, why we are agitating for parity.  For me, my answer is that I don't care which one is faster, I just want it fair.  Even if it turned out that equal-displacement would put the two-stroke at a bigger disadvantage than it's at now, I would argue that they should be equal.  Of course, I think we all know that's not true in aggregate (although on some tracks it may well be).  May the best engine win.  We learned in the 1960s to be colorblind, now it's time the AMA rulemakers learn to be stroke-blind.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline bearorso

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2010, 11:30:38 PM »
On motocross tracks, there has nearly always been little difference in lap times, by same level riders, on various capacity motorcycles. For the most part, motocross tracks don't have much speed to them, in conventional terms. If you put a speedo on an MX bike, plus a timer for how long a 'high' speed was recorded, the average person would be distinctly unimpressed. We  as riders know that 45/50mph through a rough straight can be utterly ballistic and pant staining - to the uninitiated , it's slow. I recall reading that , on the Honda test track, both RJ and Bailey recorded wide open throttle usage for only about 3/5 seconds per lap, and spent most of the time below 1/2  throttle on a full lap on 500s.

I don't know the exact Maximum Average speed for a lap of an approved track (mind you it's not rigidly followed from what I gather) that is specified by the FIM, but it is surprisingly low, I think around the 60 / 80 KPH. So we are not doing a sport that is speed / power dominated like so many motorsports.

Equivalency is about having an equal playing field, in each class. The open class, with bikes of either stroke, will have engines that can put out more usable power than even the best can make use of, in a variety of capacities. The open class enables designers/engineers and Riders to try different approaches.

Smaller capacity bikes have always gone fast int terms of lap times. And there are those talented riders ( well, the average rider to - I could always get consistently faster lap times on my 125s/ small capacity 4t/2t hybrids, than I could get on my open class bikes that I raced at the same time - but I had more fun and better results on the open class bikes), whose style / preferences in a bike enable them to go faster on a smaller capacity bike. Especially when on a track with bikes of , generally, equal performance levels. And the very highly talented riders, who are really suited to the smaller capacity bike, can do well against bigger bikes whilst on the same track, at the same time. But they are in the minority. The bigger bikes  use/can use different lines, that interfere with the lines (generally about keeping momentum) of the smaller bikes, cutting momentum, and thus beating them. Examples could go on and on.

 To me, the premier , Open class has always been about riding the most demanding and difficult to master bikes, simple as that. That is why it was regarded with such respect, for so long.

450s I've regarded as open classers all along - 250 2ts get eaten by them because of the difference in grunt that the 450s have Only because of the capacity handicap. 4 strokes Do Not have more torque than a 2t of equal capacity, with the same relative level of tuning,  it's one of the most BS statements that I continually hear / read with regards to 4ts - They Only have the advantage in torque  Because  of their extra capacity - even 2t advocates seem not to understand this most basic point at times.


I ride a CRE500 - because it's rock axe reliable, Easy to ride, simple and I'm off the 'get the latest model treadmill', for the time being. And it costs little to run. I don't find it scary / intimidating 99.9%  of the time, and I certainly can scare myself just as much when I occasionally get on a 450 4t open classer - both examples of MCs  that have more power than I , or any of you, I would suspect, could use in my sort of terrain.

We need a return to 3 classes, and equal capacity rules between 2 an 4 strokes. And a return to the premier class being the Open class.

PS, when I checked the AMA pro rules, I saw the maximum capacity written as 450cc - I saw no reference to it being now an open class, as I think someone has stated above.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 11:39:41 PM by bearorso »

Offline meger z

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2010, 01:31:30 AM »
500s are faster than 250s i  went to a 2t round at Pontriless 250s up against 500s the 500s left them for dead on the hills .The 500s won by a long way ,get the right track and nothing will live with a big 5  .

Offline ford832

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2010, 07:48:15 AM »
I like that 20lb rule for going between classes.  It's the kind of rule that you just KNOW applies everywhere.  But of course, when Maico say otherwise, they've got to be lying, because we all know that Maico lies about everything.

Lol,you crack me up Jetz :D.As hard as this is for you to believe,there are more motorcycles out there than Maico's.
The 20lb differential isn't a rule,(and I never said it was-i believe the term was "more or less")it's just approximately accurate.The fact that this figure may not apply to Maico's old or new isn't  going to stop the world from spinning and really has no bearing on anything at all.
I'll try again-using 125's and 250's as examples.250's typically have a slightly larger heavier chassis.The engines are heavier as are many of the bits and pieces.Trans,clutch,rear rim/tire,kickstarter,ex pipe/muffler etc,etc.All this adds up to a heavier bike.
As for the Maico's,like the KTM example I cited previously,it's not uncommon for a small manufacturer to use a shared chassis and a couple of engine castings for their entire line.It's just smart business from an economical point of view.
On the upside,if you buy a small bore from a company like this,you tend to end up with a durable,overbuilt machine that will last a good long time.The downside,of course,is that you also end up with a porker as compared to most of the competition.For me,I'd pay a weight penalty to get more durability-within reason of course.
My second KTM was built a fair bit lighter than my first-not enough to notice but things like aluminum spoke nipples and thinner,weaker bits and pieces bothered me-though I never had any issues.
The modern day 250f's are very close in weight to a 250 2t though the engines are still heavier.The chassis on these have been lightened so much  in recent years I think they'll soon be bordering or fragility.The 2t chassis haven't changed much and tend to be heavier.
As for the claimed Maico weights,if their claimed figures are like every other manufacturer on the planet and tend to be on the optimistic side,the dry weight(no fluids at all)of the 250 puts it well on the heavy side for a 250 mx-no doubt due to the shared parts with the bigger bores.There's no magic Maico superiority at work here-just common sense and a small company trying to build a full line of bikes relatively economically.I think if they have the quality down(time will tell)they're a bike I'd like to own.If I do however,I won't rave about them being the best thing ever-and I'm not going to tell you I've got one either :P ;)
« Last Edit: May 30, 2010, 07:55:42 AM by ford832 »
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Offline SachsGS

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2010, 09:47:49 AM »
When I first got my Maico 380 a friend of mine quickly weighed it on the same scale he used for his Husky WR250 and Gasser 250 and,I forget the exact figures but, he found the Maico to be lighter then both of the other bikes.

Offline ford832

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2010, 01:13:26 PM »
Your Maico was what,about 225 lbs or so w/o fuel?That's a reasonable weight.Gasgas and Husky of those years were a little overweight-around 230+ or so I believe.
I'd rather a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2010, 12:26:21 AM »
I will say, when I converted the weight for the new 250 MMX from kilograms into pounds, I was a little disappointed at how much heavier it was than when we put my dad's '77 250 on the scales.  That damn thing was, like, 205lbs with most (like, 90%) of the fluids drained.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2010, 01:14:06 AM »
Maico was a small factory, not only are half the parts the same between the different CC's, but they are also the same between series of years, some parts even back to the early 70s (the wrist pin & bearing is the same from 1970 to 2003 at least reguardless of CC). 

For example, the frame is usually the same.  In 1981, for example, the cases are the same.  The 250 and 490 engine cases are EXACTLY the same.  So how do they fit a smaller crank?  There are inserts in the crank housing to make the volume smaller. 



Check it out from the diagram.  Same shifting forks, etc (of course need to look up the parts numbers to see that detail).  Some of the gears may even be the same.  Anyhow, the diagram clearly shows crank inserts if you look at the crank housing area, those are for the 250.  The case part #'s are the same.  I juse put shifting forks from a 1986 Mstar 250 for a 500 transmission.  They are the same. 

So Nanny nanny boo boo to the weight difference for Maico!

Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline TotalNZ

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2010, 02:38:56 AM »
I reckon the net weight of the bike is irrespective with modern bikes all around the same dry weight, 2t or 4. the 4's and big bore 2t's or always gonna have bigger engine internals and larger rotating mass, this makes them want to stand up when you gas them and makes them feel heavier.
Try holding a little 10inch wheel by the axles when spinning, then try and turn it from horizontal to vertical. it's pretty easy but you can feel the resistance, then try it with a BMX bike wheel and you'll notice a big difference and much more resistance.  That's why 4's feel heavy, that and the lazy power delivery and flat powerband.

Offline ford832

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2010, 03:37:36 AM »


So Nanny nanny boo boo



Lol,you've got kids too eh opfermanmotors? :D
I'd rather a full bottle in front of me than a full frontal lobotomy.

Offline Helmut Clasen

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2010, 06:02:39 AM »
I do not get it, in the old days 250 2 strokes were always faster then the 500 2 strokes. So why do we think that it is not fair to race a 250 2 stroke against 450 4 strokes. Why should all of a sudden a 450 2 stroke be faster then a 450 4 stroke?


500 cc off road bikes are FASTER,but depend on what track the 250,s are QUICKER.
Again,depend on what kind of track,the 125 cc bikes can be QUICKER then 250-500.


3xSACHS MC-GS 250 1977
1xHercules GS 250  1976
1xHercules GS 350  1976
1xCan-Am 175 TNT 1975
1xZuendapp GS 125 19072-73
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy

Offline SachsGS

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2010, 08:39:43 AM »
Helmut, didn't Sachs make some proto-type big bore two strokes in the 1970's?

Offline Helmut Clasen

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Re: 500 2 strokes always were slower then 250 2 strokes!!
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2010, 08:55:12 AM »
Speaking about off road SACHS,the largest engine Sachs developed was the over bored 250 into 255 cc ( 1976 ) just to bring it to the US market.They called it a 350 but it was only 255cc.




By producing the 300 cc WANKEL engine,it was debatet what it realy was,because it fired 3 times in one revolution so some people claimed it was therefore a 900 cc.





3xSACHS MC-GS 250 1977
1xHercules GS 250  1976
1xHercules GS 350  1976
1xCan-Am 175 TNT 1975
1xZuendapp GS 125 19072-73
http://speedy_c.tripod.com
http://picasaweb.google.com/vindurospeedy