KTM Fuel Injection.

[evo550]

For some of you this will be a bitter taste, but this interview was in the latest ADB in a side bar to 2014 KTM test.
Titled, "Are injected two-strokes a myth"
Joachim Sauer, KTM Production Manager.

We have been working a lot in recent years in order to get the injection system ready for our two-strokes.
I went out into the market and visited lots of dealers and spoke to hundreds of riders and asked them if they would like an injected two-stroke. Everybody said "Great when will it be ready" I then said " Would you still love it if it was the price was close to the 450/500exc, also instead of just carburetor and ignition, you would have to deal with pumps and all the complexities of the system, which adds 2kg of weight. It would make the whole thing so difficult to deal with you would not be able to change a piston at home".
From the beginning, I could see their enthusiasm get less and less, and at the end, out of 100 people, only about 5 people wanted such a system. So we decided we won't introduce a system until the rules (Homologation) force us to. This will probably happen with year model 2017. But if we had to do it next year we would be ready. But we want to keep it back and do some more testing.

So there you have it, straight from the horses mouth....

[TMKIWI]

Makes sense.
I for 1 would like one but I can see why other people are not so keen.
Everyone wants the simplicity of the 2 stroke, but in the future there may not be any choice if we want to buy a new smoker. Thats if the manufactors want to build them.

[shanes]

i for one would much rather the keep it simple approach , less weight easy to work on . i go to the track to ride and enjoy myself , last thing i want to be doing is having to plug a lap top in after a session , means there is just more stuff to go wrong .

i have to deal with electronics on the superbike and they piss me off .

[lauterbacher]

      I  think the whole issue is a bunch of crap and the real question was never asked and responded to, that is most people are unhappy wth you on the two stroke front because we don't see any true R@D on the two stroke motor as it sits.it seems that you Mr KTM put all your RD into the four strokes while just playing both sides of the fence and doing nothing to the two strokes. what say ye

[evo550]

      I  think the whole issue is a bunch of crap and the real question was never asked and responded to, that is most people are unhappy wth you on the two stroke front because we don't see any true R@D on the two stroke motor as it sits.it seems that you Mr KTM put all your RD into the four strokes while just playing both sides of the fence and doing nothing to the two strokes. what say ye

What ? "Most people are unhappy with you on the two stroke front because we don't see any true R@D"
What are the names of these "Most people" every one I know with KTM 2t's are stoked with them.
The article also goes onto discuss the difficulties in getting new bikes Homologated with AMA and FIM,an example of 2 years for a headlight change on the exc range was given, imagine the difficulties of getting a injected bike through the beaucrates..

[SachsGS]

Rumor has it that one of the main reasons Husqvarna has new owners is so that they could have access to BMW developed 2T injection technology. Don't forget that Ossa already has injected 2Ts.

[evo550]

As the article says, KTM already have it ready to go, but it would appear the market doesn't want 4t type complications and price tag $$$.
So unless they are required by law, why would they.

[chump6784]

Why would FI stop the consumer being able to change the top end at home? I can see at adding a little more complexity but not that much

[bearorso]

That they have said for the last few years that they would not introduce DFI / EFI / whatever they have ready now (well ready for the last few years), has been common knowledge for years now. That, is nothing new, at all.

The cost / complexity and difficulty of service, sound like a load of horse **** to me. Unless they have developed a ridiculous system and /or are paying someone like Orbital crazy licensing fees. Pumps etc mentioned, hints that they've done a high pressure , in head system, such as Orbitals, that others have used.

High pressure, in head DFI - not really the best solution for a 2t. There are other ways to do it, that are simpler, and cheaper.

Pierer made note of BMW / Huskies interesting 2t tech they had in his main interview with Alan Cathcart, as being of main interest to him with Huskies future - I was surprised it was part of the purchase, but it must have been.

Perhaps they are going back to the drawing board, and they have had their eyes opened by seeing and acquiring something much better / simpler / cheaper than they had developed. It wouldn't be the first time that a company and it's engineers, became so self involved, that they stuffed up right royally.

If a tiny, re-start up company like Ossa can do a superbly working   EFI - I've ridden the bike, and it' 'carburates' superbly, and starts easily, the drongos that are having problems with respect to starting, just aren't doing it the way the bike requires - a much bigger company such as KTM should do better, with whatever they have developed. Perhaps they haven't. Classic

 Sauer may just be protecting sales of 4ts. They've sunk multi millions into so many 4t engine designs, that, whilst they can still sell every ancient 2t they produce with Big Profit margins, why bother putting out new 2ts? So, BS a fair amount about the "costs" of a new 2t.

I'd really hoped that BM / Husky would thoroughly gazump KTM with regards to 2ts - well, it certainly won't happen now, with KTM getting their hands on Husky. Lets hope that some other company(s)  'c o c k s  their leg' on KTM, and not just teeny tiny Ossa.

[Jeram]

What a crock of ****...

I dont see any reason why you couldnt still change a piston at home... they've been using high pressure DFI on snowmobiles for years and rebuilds are no more difficult than any other.

[SachsGS]

X2. Let me get this right, KTM is selling oodles of EFI 4T$ but the market would not embrace an EFI/DFI 2T that would  still be cheaper, lighter and easier to maintain the a 4T? Somehow I don't think so.

[citabjockey]

If its true that they sell every two stroke they build right now, why would they change? Ramping production on a new system costs money.  Oh, and every KTM FI two stroke sale is probably a four stroke sale they loose. They have very little monetary incentive to bring these out.

Also, if they could jump through the EPA hoops in the states to make their DI bikes legal on the street in the US of A, well, that would be a new market and they *might* be able to sell more bikes. But of course one street legal two stroke sale would again be a loss of a four stroke EXC sale. I guess not much gain there either (which burns me up). Not to mention all the service and parts business they get with all the four strokes running around.

If it ain't broke the corporation is not going to "fix" it.

Nope, its going to take competition to make this happen.

So if another company brought out an injected two stroke that worked well and competed with their products then its a whole new game. So if Ossa can finally get that FI enduro bike out there then we may see some action because each OSSA enduro sale would be a KTM sale lost. True even if the OSSA is not EPA legal. The FI threat posed by Husky with respect to this has been delt with already as mentioned earlier.

So what can we do to support Ossa or anyone else that could nudge KTM in the proper direction?

I can clearly picture a 250 FI two stroke motocrosser with fuel/ignition/power valve mapping to setup a powerband much like that of a 250F.  Lap times would improve tons. THAT bike would sell like hotcakes.

[factoryX]

This isn't the first thread about ktm's stand on EFI. The fact that they have efi two strokes and are holding out until the market becomes restricted due to BS environmental laws says two things: EFI two strokes are more efficient in every way, and we're protecting our 4 stroke sales. Husky was supposedly about to blow the doors away with their own efi two strokes, and all of a sudden KTM now owns them? " title="Roll Eyes" class="smiley">

As for being more difficult to maintain? lmfao, once efi is set correctly you won't have to touch it again unless something minor goes like a fuel pump(3-15 minute job). People talk about wanting to run alcohol's in two strokes, a little dirty secret is that you have to run fuel pumps to keep the fuel flowing fast enough(Burns at a higher rate), and people have been doing that for the last 30+ years. Hell, even my dad 85 TRI-Z 250 two stroke trike runs one. 

[Lsroutlaw]

Wow that's disappointing to read. All KTM reps should know better then to allow this kind of crap to be spewed out. He needs to be let go. Maintenance harder? I would like a explanation on how replacing a top end would be any different? I have a FI 2t happy to report my top end is as easy as ever to replace! Tuning with FI = a laptop, much easier and would only need to be tweaked for people with mods. Anyone who picks a 2t over a 4t now knows most motor issue's are caused by people's inability to jet for temp and elevation changes, FI fixes this. More expensive? Yeah maybe but not a bunch. These parts needed are readily available and mass produced. FI has been around for a long time. It seems weird to me that the 2T dirtbike market is left in the dark ages on this. Conspiracy, agenda, traverstry, maybe a gross injustice.....sarcasm aside, that explanation by a KTM rep is an insult to every 2T fan.

[rookie]

i would prefer to keep the carb

simple and proven, and i can jet it myself!

and most important, is low cost!