Sound Testing unfair to the two stroke

[rlaj1004]

Looks like  you never considered that people raising concerns may actualy legitimate and well founded concerns have you? The club and members are far better to engage with residents instead of dimissing their concerns. Attitude and behaviour can make all the difference, things like the way you enter and leave the venue. Best think that a race track is a privelige not your right, even if the club/track owner is smart you can negotiate a solution where you agree to close a track and move to a better venue councils will probably even assist.
[/quote]

What's "obvious"?  These days if you wish to stick your head in the sand and ignore complaints about noise your doomed. Blaming the complainant isn't going to save a track is it?

2T Institute

Actually I owe you half and apology, I read your post as directed at me as ( Like the way you enter and leave ) kinda skipped over the venue part.
The part where you said I never considered other people raising legitimate concerns is wrong. I do and will but in a case like this, which may be total speculation, it seems that they have done more than enough to cut down noise for the NEW homeowners. But like I said people buy houses near existing business's, airports, factories, even warehouses and then bitch about the noise, traffic etc. In my opinion they shouldn?t have bought there or they can move.
I have seen this happen, there was a family owned track a couple of hours from me. Was in the family for a couple of generations, the city moved in around and the new homeowners started complaining. The owners shortened hours, built fences to no avail. They closed the track a few years ago. You talk about rights, what about the rights of that family to operate and business. In that case a few homeowners put pressure on the city council to take away the rights of one family. Having a track to ride is not a right or a privilege, it?s a business that either benefits the community or not, I can chose to go or not, like shopping at Wal-Mart instead of the local  Mom and Pop.
We as a group have very little recourse when someone starts to complain, unless you have people on the city council that ride, your response to complaints will fall on deaf ears. I doubt they will help move an motocross track and that is hardly a viable option. The tracks around me are 105 acres, 260 acres. So the owners that have invested time, money and sweat get to pack up, try and find a large section of land to spend thousands if not tens of thousands to move their business because some ill informed group of people purchased and house on the edge of their existing business. Our tracks have spent years adding to the soil, sand, mulch to get the dirt to be the best it can be.
Removing rocks, stumps, drilling wells for water, tanks for storage, septic tanks and drain fields for the bathrooms.
Really, move the track??
And it is not about blaming anyone, it is about turning the tide back on the complainers. The track was in operation prior to the new housing. The rights of the owners of the track should be considers, the revenue the track brings in to the area with the riders. How loud really are the bikes, is the complainer a grumpy *&^& that has a hard on for motorcycles in general? ( if you have ever road street bike, trained on a road bike you would have experienced drivers who don't want to share the road)

My point was really was this:

By coddling the whiners we empower them, we need to fight back to keep our tracks open. Continuing to quiet down our bikes and build soundproof fences and ignoring the fact that the track benefits a large group of people and the community is back-ass-wards.
As long as the bikes are within reason, noise wise, and Suzukipride has made and effort to help with the noise, which he has, enough is enough.

[kim wedding]

NOTHING make's me madder than hearing someone say riding a dirt bike isn't a freedom. What are freedom's? Too me riding a 2 stroke m-x bike is the best freedom of all and worth fighting for.  When us rider's have to go before some board of beauracrat's to beg then to not close a track and all they want is more tax'es to spend on some crap. Do they ever pay out of those tax'es for sound proof fence's.

A person can pay money to go to a rock concert   and have ringing in their ear's for a day or two after the concert. I mean real hearing damage. I've never had ringing in my ear's from a m-x bike's.   As loud as bike's are their not excessively loud and again i wish that when people complain about dirt bike noise the city council or judge would tell them to buy some earplug's and get over it. I personally believe when someone want's to infringe on my right's they should lose all their right's. I'm willing to bet if this happen just a couple of time's the crybabies would stop crying about the sound from dirt bike's. One question when did it happen that every freedom we have is up for debate or confication? People that hate dirt bike's or freedom are the one's taking them from us. What ever happen to LAND OF THE FREE HOME OF THE BRAVE.... KIM

[rlaj1004]

Well put Kim

[kim wedding]

How can a m-x track make in tax'es as much as a mcdonald's. M-X track's have a limited appeal. WE'RE A SUB-CULTURE, AND STILL A FREEDOM. I mean decide if we  the people can afford tax'es or insurance cause between paying the two it's starting to feel like the power's that be are after my freedom as well as your'es.... IF the neighbor's are complaining about track noise or bad behavior on the spectator's fault. Then address each problem on it's own. UNRULY spectator's leaving you're property should be dealt with by the police ( loud drunk rude peeing on the lawn kind of degenerante's). I hate running into that kind of character. Afraid they'll pee on my shoe's . THAT'S why i support  public stripping and whipping for criminal outlaw's. I ,also support it for  e.p.a.(EVIL PEOPLE ALLIANCE), CORUPT POLITICAN'S, CORUPT JUDGE'S AND LAWYER, AND ANY FREEDOM HATING MADMAN.


I told you this post ril'es me up!!  I mean some freedom's we all share, but the one's that each man carries in their selv'es are the sweetest one's and most precious to some of us. I COUNT MYSELF AMOUNG THEM.KIM

[rlaj1004]

Ok Kim, gonna have to put you in time out soon. 
I agree, to me this is the same crap we deal with at work, or schools, society,  One idiot does something well idiotic and we get a knee jerk reaction. You see it all the time.
We (society) have decided not to point fingers at the offenders, OMG don't punish the individual, change the rules so that moron doesn't have the chance to do that again.  Restrict everybody
 
I do think a track can produce alot of revenue for a city, depending on the location. Property taxes would definitly be higher for a 1-200 acre track then MCd's. And on busy weekends, every local resturant has a stream of trucks with trailers/bikes runnnig through them. But I live in a small town area, it probably wouldn't have the same impact on larger cities.

Back to the original post, Suzuki, have you gone into the complainers neighborhood and listened, or even took some sound readings yourself. Hard data is hard to refute. If you end up in city meetings with data that says, our tracks are quieter than than the mower he is using it may show he is just a wanker ( always wanted to use that word )

I like the "EPA", you have a sign up sheet,  but (corupt politicians), isn't that an oxy moron, just politicians will do, its the same thing.

[motoxr377]

I grew up racing at Frozen! 

yes, but at what distance?

Says on that diagram it is from the washington marina - A quick google finds one in DC, across the potomac from ronnie reagan airport.

It's about 2 miles northeast of the runway (using my fat fingers to approximate distance on google maps). Assuming the plane does not turn and stays at the approx north south bearing of the runway, it is probably half a mile east of the plane taking off at whatever altitude the plane is at so that may be up to 3/4 of a mile away.

The 130 is probably next to the thing.

the 104db figure from gravelly point is a park that starts about 500' from the end of the runway, so pretty close, depending on where they put the meter.


and for racerx - Manowar, viking metal rockers formerly of auburn NY, (home of frozen ocean mx, useless tidbit of the day) has recorded noise levels of up to 139dB.

[opfermanmotors]

If you buy a house next to a train track do you potest the train company to move the track? If you buy a house next to an airport, do you protest to move the aiport?  If you buy a house next to a busy highway do you protest to move the highway?

They do it because of the perseption is that they can and they don't like the dirt bikes to begin with.  I've been in neighborhoods where a train was next to the houses, the houses completely rock and shake when the train goes by and sometimes they go by at 5am.  People there suck it up or don't buy a house there.

[riffraff]

Actually they have shut down airports due to houses being built by them and the new home owners complaining

[factoryX]

In this time and age, large air ports won't be moved. Smaller ones like the air port you work at would be a different story. It all comes down to lawyers and entitlements. This is why you stand your ground, and don't even give an inch.

[bearorso]

It sounds like the local track, or, more likely, the people setting the testing standards, are not doing things correctly, when it comes to the sound testing, between the 4ts and 2ts. Unless you're running a short muffler / badly packed / burnt out muffler, a later model (and not so later model) 2t should be able to get lower sound readings than the majority of std piped modern 4t MXers.

But, that's besides the point. The noise standards / testing, is what has been set by whoever it is that set them.

So, meet them. Unless the standards 'they' require, are outrageous. Give 'em an inch, and they'll take a mile? Yes, it can happen. But, "give them an inch, then use the results to stop them from taking a mile", is a pretty good tactic. Meet a reasonable standard, then fight the ****ers from a stronger stand point. It can, and does, work, with dealing with a lot of  mongrels that want to control things. It's worked over the years, and very recently, for my friends and I, with regards to dealing with councils and environmental 'police'.

A quieter muffler required - fit one.

A lot of extra noise beyond what is coming from the end of the muffler, comes from resonance within / of the expansion chamber. Pipe guards - fitted properly, can attenuate a lot of noise.

An old tube, over the chamber, can seriously reduce chamber noise. Daggy?, shit yes but cheap, and with a bit of experimentation, not that bad in producing other pollutants, such as burning rubber.

Things that vibrate - there's a Lot of them on a bike, especially a non counter balanced 2t - such as exhaust springs / loose pipes, even the shock spring . Just revving your bike, and looking at the shock spring can have you seeing big vibration / hearing a lot of noise from said spring. Just rotating it can help, before changing pre-load (think of the spring as a tuning fork, and you'll have a basic understanding of it, and it's 'frequency changes - of course, set it back to what it Should be, if you need to take the extra, or less, pre-load route, when you actually ride the bike). Foam in the air box vents, can lower noise, without messing with your bikes power - intake noise, is a big component of noise output.

  As for the "idea" of the extended stinger  into the convergent cone of the chamber - well howdy - it's been done for years, by those of us that know of it, and, funnily, it's recommended in a couple of "old school" 2t tuning books that come in for a fair bit of ridicule, from a few here, quite often. I think you'll find it in Gorden Jennings book, in the section on exhausts. It works well - I've done exactly that to most of my 2ts I've had over a fair few decades now. Even if they have been "track only" bikes, be they dirt, or tar.  I much prefer to have a quieter bike, over a louder one. Anyone with a bit of grey matter between their ears, usually does.

[Jeram]

  As for the "idea" of the extended stinger  into the convergent cone of the chamber - well howdy - it's been done for years, by those of us that know of it, and, funnily, it's recommended in a couple of "old school" 2t tuning books that come in for a fair bit of ridicule, from a few here, quite often. I think you'll find it in Gorden Jennings book, in the section on exhausts.

Yes it is from Gordon Jenning's book.
Whether he was actually the first person to apply such a technique, I would doubt it but thats not the point.

But I suppose what your trying to say is that I can't pick and choose sections of his book based on objective thinking and descision making to decide what is fact and what is non-fact?, I have to either believe in it all or believe it none of it?
Thats starting to sound more like religion than science!

The great thing about science is that it is natural for theories and ideas overtime to be superseeded, with the previous knowledge being ruled obsolete by more recent studies and reports.

But just because a large portion of his book has been superseeded over time by more modern technologies does not mean that there aren't pages in the book which are still correct and useful today.

The reason the stinger pipe theory is still relevant today is that the theory behind it is very basic.
Why reinvent the wheel?

[VintageBlueSmoke]

Portugal is very interested in supporting the FIM's noise regulations and tests at every sanctioned race. I was kind of surprised at the results of tech inspection and sound testing at the National in Faial this weekend. I looked at a lot of the bikes scores. I was specially interested in the stock vs aftermarket, 250f vs 450f, 2 vs 4 stroke, and new pretty bike vs  old ragged dog comparisons. The thing was, every one of them was between 105 and 115 db. My KTM SX144 was 108, while the CR500 was 110 db and the team Yamaha 450F was 112 db.

Now I don't know what the required number is anymore but it just shocked me they were so close. And my guess is that the 500  prolly never had the silencer repacked!

I think maybe someone should do a sound check at the start and see what 40 450Fs reach before they let off for the first turn.

In your case though, no matter what, these neighbors would complain though even if it was electric motorcycles. Crowds, annuoncers, traffic, trash, all piss off the "locals". The sound is just easy to get you on.

[Jeram]

they are big differences in sound!

Keep in mind that the decibel scale is not linear it is exponential

If my math is still up to scratch there is a 151% difference between a bike with 108dB and a bike with 112bB0.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

I should have pointed out that there were plenty of 250F and 450F's win the 108 to 110 db range.

The other thing - as others have pointed out is how the sound carries. The lower frequencies (deeper tones) of the 4-strokes seem to carry farther and penetrate obstacles better - like house walls.