KTM 2 stroke fuel injection

[eprovenzano]

I tend to agree as well....  nothing against the project Uniflow is putting together, (its an amazing project BTW)

[rlaj1004]

I am more intersted in the horsepower the injected 2S's would seem to put out. After reading the article about the injected quad on TSM it seems that they would benifit substantially.

So Uniflow, have you got any estimates? do you expect an jump in HP?

[SachsGS]

I think DI will appear on dirt bikes,after all, we already have numerous EFI and DI snowmobiles/outboards on the market that are demonstratively superior to their carbed cousins. Here in western Canada would a retailer dare try to market a carbed sled? Not a chance unless they want to go broke.Mass production of electronic devices is cheap and they are very reliable, would I go back to points and a carb on my Ford truck? No way.

On the U.S. Ebay site there is a EFI 170cc Derbi GPR for sale.   

[VintageBlueSmoke]

Yeah, I gotta agree, Comparatively speaking the amount of damaging gasses a 2t motorcycle puts out are a fart in space to other things on this planet.
Injecting a 2t dirt bike defeats half the purpose of why we ride them in the first place, simplicity, reliability and price. lets leave them the way the are, carbs give a bike character

Gotta disagree.

The third world and other "developing countries" are chock full of small 2T engines and they put out FAR MORE harmful gasses than the developed (4$) world. We 'might not' see it on MX bikes in the very near future, but you WILL see more and more 2T bikes being targeted for India, China, Brasil, and a host of smaller places like Thailand, the PI, Malasya, etc. Eventually we'll catch up!

As for being "more complex", well we all fought it on our cars, trucks and dune buggies. VW (or Porsche) powered buggies gave way to V6 Mercrusier motors (Chevy V6) because of availability of carbed versions. But eventually even WE evolved. My rock crawler has FI and I would be dead without it!

[citabjockey]

I think you may be right. But its not a slam dunk. While the complexity of the injection stuff is undeniable there are advantages even on a pure dirt bike (but probably not for a motocrosser) like increased range, no flooding when the bike is on its side, no messing with jets AT ALL, no pinging or blubbering, yada yada. Right? Potentially the power band would be superior and perhaps with higher peak as well.

As stated by others, all this stuff has been made to work on other platforms with extreme reliability. The challenge on a dirt bike is the sheer cleanliness required and the pounding the components will take. Much more than on a snowmobile or an outboard on both counts.

Even with DI/FI stuff on it a two stroke engine STILL would not have cams, valves, springs, chains. And would still make far superior HP per CC.  I have to believe that mass produced FI equipment has to be cheaper to manufacture that all that precision machined valve gear nonsense. You still would be able to pop the jug off in 20 minutes. The advantages remain.

Without this I feel that the two stroke may be a dead end for our dirt bikes - in the long run. Unless something big happens (or AMA/FIM change the rules back to what they should be), and the Euro regs are as you say there really is little reason to continue making them from a bean counter point of view. KTM somehow has the wherewithal to keep development programs going for both 4T and 2T. How long can that last?

Keep dreaming because you aint ever going to see a direct injection two stroke dirt bike, for a host of technical and cost reasons.
EuroX emissions targets are NOT based on the individual models but are calculated across the entire model range, the idea being manufacturers can still have thirsty sport/competition models that don't meet the targets but the everyday commuter vehicles are well under the target so on average it balances out.
So there is not a single reason manufacturers would spend a gazzillion Euros to make a model compliant when they can make an existing compliant model further under the target

[Uniflow]

A little back ground, I too hate electronics and for a long time would not have anything to do with EFI. Didn't trust it, didn't understand it and couldn't afford it. Some years ago I helped develop a microlight engine using an EA 81 Subaru block as the base, I ran Mikuni 2x 36 round slides @ $160 each. With the new heads I designed we got 118 HP but being aviation carb icing was a potential problem ( round slides not as affected as butterfly carbs ). We were forced to go EFI. I ended up using the Link system on these engines, now up to 130 HP with a manifold change as well. It took me a long time to come to terms with EFI.
So when caught with a problem on the Bighorn with the engine far too wide, large carb stuck out the side and problems with fueling on E90 I thought perhaps I'll have a go at EFI and get rid of the carb, how hard could it be?? Now I see why It's taken a long time for the twostroke to catch up on EFI, there have been many issues but whats changed is the computers are now so good ( fast ) port injection is now possible. This is a game changer. Yes it's more expensive and yes it's heavier but the gains I think are worth it. The YZ 250 should have a smoother power delivery and by having a larger intake make more power although this is only a byproduct. Power delivery control is what I'm after.
I've got too many projects on the go ( that's why the 250 EFI isn't running yet ) but this weekend we should have the bike finished and ready to start. I'll video it if you like.

[teriks]

Video? Yes please

On another note, Arctic cat have an interesting variation on the FI/DI theme in it's new 600 twostroke.
http://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Tech-Insight-Inside-the-new-Arctic-Cat-600-C-TEC2-Engine
Plenty of cooling of the small end there.

[2T Institute]

Gotta disagree.

The third world and other "developing countries" are chock full of small 2T engines and they put out FAR MORE harmful gasses than the developed (4$) world.

I see so someone on a 125 two stroke bike weaving through Bangkok traffic uses more fuel than 1 person in their Hummer/F150 in a LA traffic jam?

I think you may be right. But its not a slam dunk. While the complexity of the injection stuff is undeniable there are advantages even on a pure dirt bike (but probably not for a motocrosser) like increased range, no flooding when the bike is on its side, no messing with jets AT ALL, no pinging or blubbering, yada yada. Right? Potentially the power band would be superior and perhaps with higher peak as well.

Injection is not that complex but a optimised 2T engine IS very complex, EFI componets are rugged and reliable.How long does it take to change a main jet? Bikes shouldn't be on their side  Fuel economy would be better but throttle response and HP and spread is down to the engine and pipe.

On the U.S. Ebay site there is a EFI 170cc Derbi GPR for sale.   

 All the work and a 45cc capacity increase that made 5hp LESS than what we get from a carbed RS125. Was so good it's up for sale.

I am more intersted in the horsepower the injected 2S's would seem to put out. After reading the article about the injected quad on TSM it seems that they would benifit substantially.

Read the above and did you EVER see a bike(other than the 30 second dyno run) or a vehicle with a 2T engine run in a race or the road that was set up by the infamous High Gain Tuning?

[citabjockey]

You know darn well he was talking collectively. And a 125 Bangkok two stroke probably puts out more unburned hydrocarbons then that hummer (perhaps even two of them).

I see so someone on a 125 two stroke bike weaving through Bangkok traffic uses more fuel than 1 person in their Hummer/F150 in a LA traffic jam?

[msmola2002]

Yes, because there is only one.

[scottydog]

You know darn well he was talking collectively. And a 125 Bangkok two stroke probably puts out more unburned hydrocarbons then that hummer (perhaps even two of them).

I see so someone on a 125 two stroke bike weaving through Bangkok traffic uses more fuel than 1 person in their Hummer/F150 in a LA traffic jam?

That only means anything if you believe in all that global warming stuff,
apparently there's  been no warming in last 18 years

[VintageBlueSmoke]

@ 2T Institute - I was refering to exhaust emissions, not amount of fuel used. The developing countries, with their growing need for resources and their lack of reulation and enforcement is where the problem lies and where solutions will be found. Across Europe and America, 2T are a very small part of the problem and 2T off-road machines don't even make up 1% of that. Of the 2T portion of the problem, first is the lawn and garden, then the marine industry. They pretty much eliminated the 2T from the roads in America and only places like Italy and Spain have much with the scooter industry.

@ msmola2002 - Nice pic. Now consider that a 2T motorcycle equals 20 of those cars. Each.

@ citabjocky - You'd be surprised how clean a Hummer is these days. They need a lot of fuel to push them around but what comes out the pipe is negligable in comparison to an unregulated, lead fuel burning, 2 cylinder snow mobile engine pushing a Tuk-Tuk in the PI.

[gpnewhouse7]

We have a couple of 200hp Newhollands with 7.5l diesel engines that use adblue and I can easily believe that they are better for the atmosphere than the YZ in the garage will be (doesn't run yet), they just steam out of the exhaust no smoke at all.

[evo550]

Yeah, I gotta agree, Comparatively speaking the amount of damaging gasses a 2t motorcycle puts out are a fart in space to other things on this planet.
Injecting a 2t dirt bike defeats half the purpose of why we ride them in the first place, simplicity, reliability and price. lets leave them the way the are, carbs give a bike character

Gotta disagree.

The third world and other "developing countries" are chock full of small 2T engines and they put out FAR MORE harmful gasses than the developed (4$) world. We 'might not' see it on MX bikes in the very near future, but you WILL see more and more 2T bikes being targeted for India, China, Brasil, and a host of smaller places like Thailand, the PI, Malasya, etc. Eventually we'll catch up!

As for being "more complex", well we all fought it on our cars, trucks and dune buggies. VW (or Porsche) powered buggies gave way to V6 Mercrusier motors (Chevy V6) because of availability of carbed versions. But eventually even WE evolved. My rock crawler has FI and I would be dead without it!

Yeah, If 2t motorcycles where the only contributors, I was comparing them to say manufacturing in china or India or Jet aircraft dumping their gasses into the upper atmosphere or Agriculture. Swapping a 2t motorcycle from carb to DI is going to make negligible difference. Environazi's and politicians pick their targets well and they are usually the smallest and weakest, so it gives everyone the impression they are changing the world, when they are actually doing nothing.
A fairly old paper, but it outlines transportation contributors to greenhouse gasses in the U.S. not a 2t anything in sight.
http://www.c2es.org/docUploads/ustransp.pdf

[Stusmoke]

@ 2T Institute - I was refering to exhaust emissions, not amount of fuel used. The developing countries, with their growing need for resources and their lack of reulation and enforcement is where the problem lies and where solutions will be found. Across Europe and America, 2T are a very small part of the problem and 2T off-road machines don't even make up 1% of that. Of the 2T portion of the problem, first is the lawn and garden, then the marine industry. They pretty much eliminated the 2T from the roads in America and only places like Italy and Spain have much with the scooter industry.

@ msmola2002 - Nice pic. Now consider that a 2T motorcycle equals 20 of those cars. Each.

@ citabjocky - You'd be surprised how clean a Hummer is these days. They need a lot of fuel to push them around but what comes out the pipe is negligable in comparison to an unregulated, lead fuel burning, 2 cylinder snow mobile engine pushing a Tuk-Tuk in the PI.

When you say a 2t motorcycle do you mean for example a YZ250? Or a 250cc road racer? Is that accurate? 20 cars to one two stroke? That seems alot...