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Offline Swimr2DaResQ

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2012, 01:43:10 AM »
The Electric push to move away from carbon based fuels is very skewed and misleading. The Toyota Prius for example, is not the most efficient car on the market! It averages 40-45 mpg on a regular basis, and that is with the aid of the electric motor that engages from 0-35 mph, at 35 mph the gasoline engine takes over. The Volswagen Jetta/Rabit/Golf TDI line of cars will get you better mpg than a Prius. On a road trip a few years ago, driving a VW Golf TDI, We averaged 58 mpg for the entire trip, 500+ miles!

I'm sure there is a lot more development coming up for these Hybrid cars, but at what cost? The current batteries in our gasoline and diesel powered vehicles are typically Lead-Acid. Lead-acid batteries are the most widely recycled product in the world because they're 70% lead by weight, the recycling process is simple and a global recycling system already exists, thus there is a desirable profit margin in recycling these Lead-Acid batteries as well as several other types of common batteries. However, the batteries that are being produced for these Hybrid/Electric cars are Lithium-Ion. These lithium batteries use cobalt and nickel, which are far more expensive than titanium, iron, and manganese that were previously used in lithium batteries. The switch to cobalt and nickel was due to an increase in battery performance when using these metals, as opposed to iron, manganese, and titanium. Despite their extremely high metal value, cobalt-based lithium batteries are rarely recycled because the process is so difficult and expensive. There was only one company in the world that had a program for recycling these lithium batteries, Unicore. The reason for this is because it is so damn expensive to recycle these batteries!!! The amount of Cobalt extracted from these batteries does not hold enough value to justify the process, and Unicore's only facility designed for this process is in Sweden! There are several other companies in the US now, Toxco is one, that have been given grants from the US government as part of a stimulus package to develop their own process and facilities to recycle these lithium batteries, there is also a facility in Trail, British Columbia, Canada as well.

The big push to electric/ hybrid cars is intensely backed and funded by the US government, it is part of Obama's pledge to transition the country away from a dependency on foreign oil and foreign-made batteries. Bull s**t!!!!!!!!!!!! There is obviously a profit to be made by producing these batteries, but (and this a huge BUT), by how much is it going to lessen our dependency on crabon based fuels?! Here is a quote from the CEO of Nissan: "Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Nissan, whose electric Leaf was unveiled this month, has said electric vehicle sales will make up 10 percent of the market by 2020, a figure equal to about 65 million units last year." 65 Million units?!!! Where is all the money going to come from to dispose of and /or recycle 65 million units worth of lithium batteries? The consumers, that's who will pay for the cost of the process, and when it's all said and done my 1994 Toyota pick-up(gasoline) that gets about 22 mpg, will still be cheaper to operate and maintain over the next 10 years than a Prius which needs new batteries every 3-5 years(batteries don"t last forever)! And what powers the factories and plants that are disposing of and recycling these batteries, what source of energy do they run on(insert: coughing ...carbon based fuels...bull sh*t!!-Oh , please excuse me, I had a lump of coal stuck in my throat!)?! It is nothing but smoke and mirrors to mislead "us",the consumers, into buying a product that is "GREEN" and saving the planet from Global Warming! There must be a cleaner/ better power source out there than what is currently available, but we cannot simply change our economic dependency on carbon based fuels over night. If the current economic status is a glimpse of things to come, then perhaps we should further development on current technology like DI for 2T's for cleaner transportation.......!!! When the economic status has come out of the dumpster, then it's time to look elsewhere for alternate fuels and power sources!

Apologies for the rant! My .02 cents have been spent!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
"Technology frightens me to death. It's designed by engineers to impress other engineers, and they always come with instruction booklets that are written by engineers for other engineers - which is why almost no technology ever works."

Offline _X_

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2012, 01:50:39 AM »
The future is what you make it! I will two stroke till I die. Sucks to your electric bicycle.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Stusmoke

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2012, 02:01:14 AM »
I would have one.
But I would put clickers in the spokes, A chopper flag and a bicycle bell on it and I would be the coolest kid on my street. ;)
And I would ride around yelling Ring ding ding ding ding. :P

hahaha... A thing I used to do as a youngen would be tape a piece of plastic over the spokes of my bicycle and when I rode it made this braaaaaap sound. Good times.

Batteries are not the way of the future. Sorry.  Battery cars are currently failing hugely even with government aid. Tesla(Electric Lotus Elise, Government funded) just went under and is no more. The problem with electricity unless tapped from the Air as Tesla intended, there isn't enough to revolutionize the motorized world. Where does electricity come from? Coal, Natural Gas, Damaging Dams, Nuclear Power Plants(Despite human error it could be the greenest form of energy possible , even without the use of Helium 3 AKA Cold Fusion), etc., all of which produce more electricity than turbines or Solar panels could ever hope of equaling. Everyone wants clean energy, problem is that it doesn't exist. Going green is BS.

Also, Battery power = HEAVY... Especially if you want more than 30 minutes of ride time...

This is exactly true. If you mass produce batteries, what are you using? Energy. If you recharge batteries you're using energy. Like I said though, that biobattery a couple of engineers made at MIT caught my attention. Unlimited, self recharging batteries would definitely be going green. If they can do that, it'll breath new life back into the electric car movement.


When gas prices hit 5 a gallon would you ride an electric bike, how about 7, how about 10?  Most will make the switch, some will make it and wish they could be riding (insert favorite bike here), some will not do it ever, all will miss the noise.


In aus, its already about 5 a gallon. We pay by the litre though, how many litrees are there to the gallon? 5 or so I think. Well we pay around 1.55 dollars a litre here.

The future IMO is batteryless electric vehicles which are wifi powered. Tesla worked out how to do this over a century ago and powered his entire workshop. Unfortunatelywestinghouse hated the idea of free unregulated energy so crushed his working idea.

100 years late hp are just working it out again but it's no where near as good as it used to be with tesla

Did I trip u out?

Firstly, yes that tripped me out an awful lot.
I heard some big company in the states was testing a totally remote controlled vehicle that picks out the best route to somewhere by satellite and drives itself there. That was cool I thought. I know that unless a massive movement is made towards greating petrolium/diesel from scratch, building it molecule by molecule, electric has to happen. Either that or go back to the steam engine. Maybe if we could develop a steam engine thats got enough power and can condensate the steam back into water to start over again, that would be a good way to go.

The Electric push to move away from carbon based fuels is very skewed and misleading. The Toyota Prius for example, is not the most efficient car on the market! It averages 40-45 mpg on a regular basis, and that is with the aid of the electric motor that engages from 0-35 mph, at 35 mph the gasoline engine takes over. The Volswagen Jetta/Rabit/Golf TDI line of cars will get you better mpg than a Prius. On a road trip a few years ago, driving a VW Golf TDI, We averaged 58 mpg for the entire trip, 500+ miles!

I'm sure there is a lot more development coming up for these Hybrid cars, but at what cost? The current batteries in our gasoline and diesel powered vehicles are typically Lead-Acid. Lead-acid batteries are the most widely recycled product in the world because they're 70% lead by weight, the recycling process is simple and a global recycling system already exists, thus there is a desirable profit margin in recycling these Lead-Acid batteries as well as several other types of common batteries. However, the batteries that are being produced for these Hybrid/Electric cars are Lithium-Ion. These lithium batteries use cobalt and nickel, which are far more expensive than titanium, iron, and manganese that were previously used in lithium batteries. The switch to cobalt and nickel was due to an increase in battery performance when using these metals, as opposed to iron, manganese, and titanium. Despite their extremely high metal value, cobalt-based lithium batteries are rarely recycled because the process is so difficult and expensive. There was only one company in the world that had a program for recycling these lithium batteries, Unicore. The reason for this is because it is so damn expensive to recycle these batteries!!! The amount of Cobalt extracted from these batteries does not hold enough value to justify the process, and Unicore's only facility designed for this process is in Sweden! There are several other companies in the US now, Toxco is one, that have been given grants from the US government as part of a stimulus package to develop their own process and facilities to recycle these lithium batteries, there is also a facility in Trail, British Columbia, Canada as well.

The big push to electric/ hybrid cars is intensely backed and funded by the US government, it is part of Obama's pledge to transition the country away from a dependency on foreign oil and foreign-made batteries. Bull s**t!!!!!!!!!!!! There is obviously a profit to be made by producing these batteries, but (and this a huge BUT), by how much is it going to lessen our dependency on crabon based fuels?! Here is a quote from the CEO of Nissan: "Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Nissan, whose electric Leaf was unveiled this month, has said electric vehicle sales will make up 10 percent of the market by 2020, a figure equal to about 65 million units last year." 65 Million units?!!! Where is all the money going to come from to dispose of and /or recycle 65 million units worth of lithium batteries? The consumers, that's who will pay for the cost of the process, and when it's all said and done my 1994 Toyota pick-up(gasoline) that gets about 22 mpg, will still be cheaper to operate and maintain over the next 10 years than a Prius which needs new batteries every 3-5 years(batteries don"t last forever)! And what powers the factories and plants that are disposing of and recycling these batteries, what source of energy do they run on(insert: coughing ...carbon based fuels...bull sh*t!!-Oh , please excuse me, I had a lump of coal stuck in my throat!)?! It is nothing but smoke and mirrors to mislead "us",the consumers, into buying a product that is "GREEN" and saving the planet from Global Warming! There must be a cleaner/ better power source out there than what is currently available, but we cannot simply change our economic dependency on carbon based fuels over night. If the current economic status is a glimpse of things to come, then perhaps we should further development on current technology like DI for 2T's for cleaner transportation.......!!! When the economic status has come out of the dumpster, then it's time to look elsewhere for alternate fuels and power sources!

Apologies for the rant! My .02 cents have been spent!


Rants are the best kind. And I completely agree with you. I'm not up to speed on the situation in the USA. I do know that they aren't exactly doing well on the economic side of things. But at the end of the day, whether you make new batteries and dispose of the old ones or just recharge the current ones, you're still relying on the energy generated by the burning of fossil fuels. I ofcourse cannot find the article that I read at school now which is a shame.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline VintageBlueSmoke

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #18 on: July 19, 2012, 11:14:46 AM »
I like it. I'll be buying one when: 1) the price comes down and 2) when battery life is extended (and the price comes down).

I looked into the Zero but was chased away when battery life under load is less than an hour and replacement batteries were +$2000.

I don't want one because of the so call environmental impact. I don't believe that tree hugging hippy BS one bit. I want one because they are freaking NEAT! I could get into all kinds of trouble with one of those. Think about the city parks, hiking trails, jogging trails, sidewalks, skate parks, beaches, [golf courses], etc.

Oh, and in Portugal, you don't need a license or insurance!

Kiss my Burro, tree hugging hippys!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
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Offline citabjockey

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2012, 08:19:48 PM »
Economics will drive this stuff, always does. The Govt may try to push these things along but if its not viable, it has no long term live. Tesla is ahead of its time. Too expensive to really penatrate the market with current conditions. As is stated before the battery recycleing costs will be borne by the consumer. All that said I have a prius and it has been a great commuter car for me since 2000. Do prius owners have to swap out a dead battery pack every 3 to 5 years? no, that is not the case. Does the energy with a battery vehicle come for free? No, and yes it will consume fossil fuels for some time to come (not, years but decades if not centuries). The trick of the electric drive is that it *can* be more efficient in getting you from point A to B with less carbon (a oil fired power plant sucks much more ergs out of a gallon of crude than your car engine does) so it *can* get better mileage. As was stated, my prius gets 44 mpg in the real world. That is with a gas engine so it doesn't *quite* match a jetta TDI but is better than a corolla. I wonder what a diesel hybrid would get? Same ad a TDI on the highway but better in town I bet. At what cost? 2 to 4k for the hybrid drive stuff. For me as an early adopter I have FINALLY broken even on my investment in that car. Now the extra mileage is gravy to me the longer I hold onto it versus a regular car I could have bought 12 years ago. Thats a stinky payback rate but at least I am a bit above water now. And the car really is comfy and QUIET, make the commute much nicer that a typical econo box car so it ended up being worth it to me. Will I do a hybrid again? tough choice but I think not.

So electric dirt bikes... The biggest advantage I can see is with those bikes is that we should be able to have riding areas closer to the general population. If they have no 4T noise to complain about the number of riding areas should at least slow down in rate of decrease (if not open up electric only parks nearby neighborhoods). This is enough of an advantage right there in my book to think these bikes are an OK idea. Plus, riding one really might be a "gas" with an absolute flat torque curve and no engine sound... But the operating cost has to come down and the performance start to get close to one of my current rides for me to consider a purchase. Again, it REALLY is all driven by economics. When gas hits $10 a gallon (not too far with most of the 3rd world now getting with the automobile program driving up demand I am afraid) or even higher, it may be closer than some think. Hard to say really. Future is fuzzy enough to me that I am not making any bets.

Oh and if we could cover the Mojave with solar cells that would give the ENTIRE US enough electricity to run the entire country right now -- at current efficiency levels. There is plenty of power in Sunlight -- we just need to be better at catching it. Again, future sure is unclear here but that really does seem like the ONLY really LONG TERM energy solution -- i.e. grab it from what the sun delivers each day as opposed to extracting what was deposited here thousands of years ago. Of course we are no where near being able to do that in my lifetime (or even my kids) but its were we will have to end up if we are to be around a long time.

In the meantime, I will go riding on my 380 tomorrow morning. And have a blast doing it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »
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Offline Stusmoke

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2012, 02:04:55 AM »
I like it. I'll be buying one when: 1) the price comes down and 2) when battery life is extended (and the price comes down).

I looked into the Zero but was chased away when battery life under load is less than an hour and replacement batteries were +$2000.

I don't want one because of the so call environmental impact. I don't believe that tree hugging hippy BS one bit. I want one because they are freaking NEAT! I could get into all kinds of trouble with one of those. Think about the city parks, hiking trails, jogging trails, sidewalks, skate parks, beaches, [golf courses], etc.

Oh, and in Portugal, you don't need a license or insurance!

Kiss my Burro, tree hugging hippys!



2x except for the part about buying one. It would take a couple of things for me to buy one: 1.) Price plummet. 2.) Gas price sky rocket 3.) a tunable, punchy, narrow range powerband with a clutch simulation and of course: A premix smell generator :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Jeram

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2012, 04:01:02 PM »
toyota unveiled its recent EV concept this week.

conductor plates on the road surface which power/charge your vehicle as you drive on main roads via low voltage.

they also mentioned they had worked out how to pass electricity through 300mm of solid concrete, interesting.


doesnt really relate to off roading, but interesting non the less.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline factoryX

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2012, 04:12:00 PM »


So electric dirt bikes... The biggest advantage I can see is with those bikes is that we should be able to have riding areas closer to the general population. If they have no 4T noise to complain about the number of riding areas should at least slow down in rate of decrease (if not open up electric only parks nearby neighborhoods). This is enough of an advantage right there in my book to think these bikes are an OK idea. Plus, riding one really might be a "gas" with an absolute flat torque curve and no engine sound... But the operating cost has to come down and the performance start to get close to one of my current rides for me to consider a purchase. Again, it REALLY is all driven by economics. When gas hits $10 a gallon (not too far with most of the 3rd world now getting with the automobile program driving up demand I am afraid) or even higher, it may be closer than some think. Hard to say really. Future is fuzzy enough to me that I am not making any bets.



Not when the people/government is trying to cut close riding/hiking areas due to soil erosion, never mind its their job to maintain them! The problem with solar panels is the cost out weighs the benefits! And if the nation were to go "All Electric" there would be energy usage ten times the current amount now used. Imagine the environmental impact of installing said Solar panels in the Mojave! But hey its for the greater good right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »


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Offline Stusmoke

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2012, 12:36:14 AM »
toyota unveiled its recent EV concept this week.

conductor plates on the road surface which power/charge your vehicle as you drive on main roads via low voltage.

they also mentioned they had worked out how to pass electricity through 300mm of solid concrete, interesting.


doesnt really relate to off roading, but interesting non the less.

Thats clever, But how are they getting that voltage through the rubber on the tires? The resistance must be massive. You were right it is interesting, thanks for posting that up.



So electric dirt bikes... The biggest advantage I can see is with those bikes is that we should be able to have riding areas closer to the general population. If they have no 4T noise to complain about the number of riding areas should at least slow down in rate of decrease (if not open up electric only parks nearby neighborhoods). This is enough of an advantage right there in my book to think these bikes are an OK idea. Plus, riding one really might be a "gas" with an absolute flat torque curve and no engine sound... But the operating cost has to come down and the performance start to get close to one of my current rides for me to consider a purchase. Again, it REALLY is all driven by economics. When gas hits $10 a gallon (not too far with most of the 3rd world now getting with the automobile program driving up demand I am afraid) or even higher, it may be closer than some think. Hard to say really. Future is fuzzy enough to me that I am not making any bets.



Not when the people/government is trying to cut close riding/hiking areas due to soil erosion, never mind its their job to maintain them! The problem with solar panels is the cost out weighs the benefits! And if the nation were to go "All Electric" there would be energy usage ten times the current amount now used. Imagine the environmental impact of installing said Solar panels in the Mojave! But hey its for the greater good right?

Touche. You've got a point. If it could be done systematically over a period of 10-20 years that would help out the environment in that its not being dealt this massive blow in one year. Spread out the project of putting solar pannels in every house over a decent period of time and that should lessen the load I think. Overtime, not burning coal for electricity would ultimately pay for itself. It would take a fair while though I think.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline factoryX

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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2012, 02:34:00 AM »

Touche. You've got a point. If it could be done systematically over a period of 10-20 years that would help out the environment in that its not being dealt this massive blow in one year. Spread out the project of putting solar pannels in every house over a decent period of time and that should lessen the load I think. Overtime, not burning coal for electricity would ultimately pay for itself. It would take a fair while though I think.

It would cost $50,000-$150,000us per house!! You do the math! The housing market here in the states is already on the fritz, can you imagine what this would do? The Chevy volt here in the states for $37,000, was actually costing tax payers hundreds of thousands of tax dollars per car!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »


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Offline Stusmoke

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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2012, 08:45:01 AM »

Touche. You've got a point. If it could be done systematically over a period of 10-20 years that would help out the environment in that its not being dealt this massive blow in one year. Spread out the project of putting solar pannels in every house over a decent period of time and that should lessen the load I think. Overtime, not burning coal for electricity would ultimately pay for itself. It would take a fair while though I think.

It would cost $50,000-$150,000us per house!! You do the math! The housing market here in the states is already on the fritz, can you imagine what this would do? The Chevy volt here in the states for $37,000, was actually costing tax payers hundreds of thousands of tax dollars per car!

I'm not familiar at all with the situation in the USA sorry. I'm making generalizations in Aus. I don't think its that expensive here but then again I haven't looked into it at all. That would be totally unfeesable to do though you're right.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2012, 01:45:39 PM »
solar panels are old hat fellas, they cost alot to produce (dollars) and only start making + CO2 net emmissions after atleast 50% service life.

The future for solar is photo-voltaic electroplating and coatings.

a study found that if the 1 years market supply (USA only) of corrugated iron roof sheeting was coated with the current coatings it would be able to power the enter USA. They are currently trying to now find practical, safe and offordable ways to introduce this to the market.

it can also be coated on glass, plastics and ceramics.

in 10 years, the panels on your car may be solar panels that trickle charge your battery, and the window next to your desk at work powers your computer
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Offline Jeram

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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2012, 01:50:31 PM »
toyota unveiled its recent EV concept this week.

conductor plates on the road surface which power/charge your vehicle as you drive on main roads via low voltage.

they also mentioned they had worked out how to pass electricity through 300mm of solid concrete, interesting.


doescont really relate to off roading, but interesting non the less.

Thats clever, But how are they getting that voltage through the rubber on the tires? The resistance must be massive. You were right it is interesting, thanks for posting that up.


yes, but nothings stopping them from having a small strip of conducting material impregnated in the rubber tyre.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Stusmoke

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Is This the future of dirt bikes?
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2012, 11:24:06 PM »
toyota unveiled its recent EV concept this week.

conductor plates on the road surface which power/charge your vehicle as you drive on main roads via low voltage.

they also mentioned they had worked out how to pass electricity through 300mm of solid concrete, interesting.


doescont really relate to off roading, but interesting non the less.

Thats clever, But how are they getting that voltage through the rubber on the tires? The resistance must be massive. You were right it is interesting, thanks for posting that up.


yes, but nothings stopping them from having a small strip of conducting material impregnated in the rubber tyre.


I really should've seen that one coming lol. Excuse my stupidity :P

solar panels are old hat fellas, they cost alot to produce (dollars) and only start making + CO2 net emmissions after atleast 50% service life.

The future for solar is photo-voltaic electroplating and coatings.

a study found that if the 1 years market supply (USA only) of corrugated iron roof sheeting was coated with the current coatings it would be able to power the enter USA. They are currently trying to now find practical, safe and offordable ways to introduce this to the market.

it can also be coated on glass, plastics and ceramics.

in 10 years, the panels on your car may be solar panels that trickle charge your battery, and the window next to your desk at work powers your computer

Thats cool. Have you got a link for hte study? I'd like to read that. The coating must be pretty expensive though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »

Offline Jeram

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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2012, 12:24:07 AM »
The coatings seem to be really cheap, for glass they simply screen print a thin layer of an oxidised titanium with a dye.
Its much less efficient than traditional cells, but once you consider than the surface area can be many many magnitudes bigger (10^6 or more) you start to see the advantages

Unfortunately I can find the article I was referencing, but here is a website which gives you a brief overveiw of the tech

http://www.pv-magazine.com/archive/articles/beitrag/pv-for-glass-and-steel-_100004813/86/?tx_ttnews%5BbackCat%5D=177&cHash=b9a17e3f108d940b8190423d516fbaa2#axzz21OcSgOif
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 04:00:00 PM by ' »