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Offline kawi250

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Racing and Engine Displacement
« on: March 29, 2010, 07:17:54 PM »
So I'm looking more into how exactly two stroke motors work and i became very intrigued about engine size. why are 250 2 strokes not in the same class as the 250 f's? they are the same engine size just different mechanically. I also have always heard or been told that four strokes have more power, when it seems that is not the case. Sure the type of power maybe different but a 250 2 stroke would leave a 250f in the dust. Shouldn't 450 f's race against 450 2 strokes not 250 2 strokes? Whats the deal with that?

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2010, 07:53:21 PM »
You're exactly right.  Here's the story.  Way back in the mists of time, basically everything was four-stroke.  These were the days when a stripped Harley was a competitive off-road machine, and the major games in town were the British thumpers, like Triumph, BSA, etc.  Two-strokes weren't used much because their powerband was a little freaky and they didn't make very much power anyway.  Then, along comes the expansion chamber, which transforms the two-stroke into a powerful, snarling beast.  I've got a really old two-stroke at home that didn't come with an expansion chamber as we'd call it today, but after we put on a custom aftermarket pipe, it became a radical crazy machine of death.

Okay, so we have these powerful two-strokes hitting the scene, and to top it off they're also very light compared to these four-strokes, which were really just a stone's throw from being full-on street bike motors.  Makes like Husqvarna, Bultaco, Maico, and CZ come in and dominate the four-strokes, and remember at this time the rules just said your displacement had to be X, without any distinction between the two.  By 1974 or so, there wasn't really anyone seriously touting a four-stroke in motocross, and this was incidentally the greatest boom period for the sport.  Everyone and their dog rode motorcycles.

Fas forward to some point (not exactly sure when) in the 1990s.  By this time, the 500cc class, which was the most popular class until the day they ended it, was eliminated.  The big names that had started the two-stroke revolution were almost all relegated to limited production runs and none could mean homologation requirements to race.  A new rule hits the books to encourage more variety in development, because bike technology hadn't really gone much of anywhere in the previous ten years.  Four-strokes would now be allowed to run at 550cc in the 250cc class!  No one jumped on it at first, but eventually Yamaha made the YZ400F, stole the 250cc championship, and it was a media blitz from there.

Pretty soon, they cut the handicap down to 450cc, possibly because KTM made a 525 with some serious balls and it threatened to take over the world.  Naturally, because the four-strokes were (and still are) twice as big, they've got more power (just) and have been making a clean sweep through victory lane for some time now.  Whenever the thought of going back to equal-displacement comes up, the response is immediate and powerful from the major bike manufacturers, who sell almost nothing but four-strokes, and make a killing on parts and service when they inevitably go nuclear.

So, there you go.  They certainly SHOULD compete on equal-displacement, because that encourages innovation and efficiency in design.  But you know, politics.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2010, 08:43:24 PM »
Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline Chris2T

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2010, 08:37:40 AM »
all other things being equal, a 4 stroke's Brake Means Effective Pressure (BMEP) is greater than a 2 stroke's, resulting in stronger explosions in the combustion chamber. So it then becomes a contest of Explosion Frequency (2 stroke) versus Explosion Amplitude (4 stroke). And clearly, Frequency wins, otherwise there would be no need to give the 4 stroke such an Amplitude advantage ;-D

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2010, 05:41:28 PM »
And you can tell the four-strokes are trying desperately to make back ground in frequency.  Hence the ridiculously short stroke and other-worldly RPM.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline JohnN

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2010, 08:24:18 PM »
As was mentioned before, there is only one reason that four-strokes have a displacement advantage, that is due to racing rules. Followed with a huge slice of marketing hype.

If you listen to the announcers at the pro races, they are always saying how powerful the four-stroke machines are. So often when they speak of the two-strokes they use words like "Vintage" or Nostalgic".

But the one part they always leave out is that in order to be competitive, the four-stroke require an almost double displacement handicap. Kind of a funny thing to leave out, don't you think? :o :o

The goofy thing is that because the top pro racers use four-strokes (while being paid huge sums of money to do so) many regular riders/racers follow along with what their favorite racer uses. It snow-balled into a run-away freight train.

Now we have loud obnoxious machines that more and more people are being injured on (because it's "easier" to ride) and which are closing down race tracks and practice areas all over the world. Not only that but they cost more to own for any length of time... in fact it's rare to see a 5 year old used four-stroke that anyone would be willing to buy.
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline grumpy

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2010, 11:46:59 PM »
in fact it's rare to see a 5 year old used four-stroke that anyone would be willing to buy.

More truthful words are rarely uttered.
The AMA 4 stroke displacement rule is simply the AMA's Rich Kid's Handicap Rule!

Offline Paul P

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2010, 07:00:34 AM »
I'm so glad to see a Walter Kaaden bit on this site. Suzuki should have a photo of him in their office thanking his genius for their early world titles after the MZ rider jumped ship. I'm pretty sure there is a story on the internet about that.
   In 2001 after the Unadilla National I was at the Dearlers ride day. I pitted with another famous Massachusetts rider and friends with my 81 Maico 490 to have a little fun on the National track. The riders KTM mechanic told me I should get a new KTM 520 as the 4 stroke is the new rage. I told him no way, too heavy, too expensive if they break, the motors need to be twice as big to be competitve, and not as fast as my 490. He was stunned by my answer, as if I didn't know what I was talking about.
  If you ever get the chance to ride a properly set up Maico 490, do it. Mine has changed a lot of people's idea of an 'outdated' bike. The most common response is the motor is like riding a 4stroke, but it's a 2 stroke.
   

Offline opfermanmotors

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2010, 11:45:13 AM »


"Expansion chambers were first designed by East German Walter KaadenWalter KaadenWalter Kaaden was a German engineer who improved the performance of two-stroke engines by understanding the role of resonance waves in the exhaust system. Working for the MZ Motorrad- und Zweiradwerk part of the Industrieverband Fahrzeugbau , he laid the foundations of the modern two-stroke engine during the cold warCold WarThe Cold War was the continuing state of political conflict, military tension, and economic competition existing after World War II , primarily between the USSR and its satellite states, and the powers of the Western world, including the United States.

They first appeared in the west on Japanese motorcycles after East German motorcycle racer Ernst Degner. Ernst Degner was a German Grand Prix motorcycle road racer defected to the west while racing for MZ (MZ Motorrad- und Zweiradwerk GmbH, a German motorcycle manufacturer) in the 1961 Swedish Grand Prix. He hid the blueprints under his racing leathers and defected during the race by riding off the track and claiming asylum. He did not finish the race. He later provided the blueprints to Japan's Suzuki."

Modest beginings start with a single blow of a horn, man.

Offline Chris2T

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2010, 06:49:27 AM »
i often wonder how in the world Kaaden ever dreamed that thing up?! i mean using soundwaves to make an engine breath more effectively? wayyyyy out there. i would have NEVER invented that. Given enough time i "may" have invented the wheel, but the expansion chamber? never!  ;D

Offline JETZcorp

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Re: Racing and Engine Displacement
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2010, 08:55:19 PM »
And come to think of it, whoever thought that by taking a piece of metal and flinging it back and forth, you could make a machine that would move people and freight from point A to point B?  How did that thought process occur?

"ZZZZ"
"ZZZZ"
"Wah, woah, oh my god!"
"Otto, what is it?"
"Ah, I just had this really weird dream.  There was this metal thing, going up and down in a tube, with fire and smoke.  It was in this machine, and somehow it was making the machine move as fast as a locomotive.  And there were millions of these machines!  All over the place!"
"Metal thing going up and down in a tube?"
"Yeah, like this!"
*makes hand gesture
"Honey, go back to bed.  And try m********ing less often, it's messing with your head."


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?