the switch over

[Stusmoke]

i've said it before and I'll say it again: This shit cannot last!!! EG:http://www.dirtbikemagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=31AA04B85C6144EEAF8AB54B15C999EA

Those guys are about as out of touch with the "common rider" as the US government is with Al Qaeda. The CRFs are cheap when engine problems arise apparently... *barf*

But seriously, I got told 3 grand for a bottom end job. My 01 YZ250 cost a little over HALF that, for a whole new bike. I started going out to the track again about 8 months ago now... first time I was there I saw about 3 smokers, a 125 and two 250s I think. At this time I was a four stroke rider, simply because I didn't know any better. the next time was 7 months ago, and there were 5. By the way im counting full size bikes alone. The next was 5 months ago and there were a bit fat 10 smokers all screaming around the track, 4 months ago there were still ten and then 1 month ago it went up to 16 two stroke, pure bred, four stroke eating motocross machines. I was so phsyched cos by this time I was doing a shit ton of reading and realising that the four stroke motocross machine is a joke.

lets assume for a moment that the average motocross riders annual income is $70,000 Australian dollars. They have 2 kids and a wife. Take 10 off straight up for food. Bills, another 20, Super contributions probably another 10, 2-10 thousand for emergencies or fixes around the house, maybe 1 grand for school related stuff, and probably another 10 for house repayments maybe. That brings the total up to $51,000 taken off for ordinary expenses alone in the most simplistic life I can think of. Theres car rego, car repayments, fuel costs, taxes and god knows what else. You're left with DICK ALL to pay for a 4 stroke motocross bike. As a result of this thousands upon thousands of people stop riding.
I am shitting no one when I say high school economics or business studies will teach you that the motocross industry can't sustain this four stroke shit. Thats all there is to it.

2 strokes are more fun, cheap as chips, easier to start, much lighter, much better handling, make more ponies per cc, look nicer, sound nicer, have a beautiful smell. I don't understand how people can say no I want a heavy, expensive, boring, hard to start, weighted handling, slower, deafeningly loud, scentless machine

[Recovered]

2 strokes are more fun, cheap as chips, easier to start, much lighter, much better handling, make more ponies per cc, look nicer, sound nicer, have a beautiful smell. I don't understand how people can say no I want a heavy, expensive, boring, hard to start, weighted handling, slower, deafeningly loud, scentless machine

the same way a man can find the crack of another man's ass attractive.

[westsiderippa]

here's my 2 cents, if we want to get to the route of the fix we have got to start hammering the youngsters. its already known that the 85 class is the most important class of future generation mx riders. it develops skill, speed, lightens fear, builds confidence etc...... and its known that the 150f fad BOMBED hard!!!!!!! the 85 is the transition machine to the big bikes. its that transition that is going ALL WRONG. we need to be fighting for reinstatement of the 125 class pro and local levels across the state. 1 huge problem they have been recognizing at least in the nor cal area is there are way to many f-ing classes at the races and people are starting to not race because the days take way to long, not enough laps and not enough riders in the classes. we need to abolish all these BS classes like schoolboy, 250 open, a, b, c, beg, stock, mod, some allow 2t some dont so they add a 2t only class bla bla bla etc..... its a joke. we need to have 125 classes and then a 250 open for the suckers. we need to convince the parents that the proper transition to the big bikes is the 125. the way it used to be, the right way. its like these kids cant wait to be like bam bam one day or there favorite lites rider. all they want to do bang that 250 on the rev limiter and muscle there way around the track forgetting everything they learned about corner speed and technique on the 85. i have seen it, im watching it happen with my friends kids. i have finally convinced 2 buddies to transition there sons to 125's and they are doing awesome!!!!! but it falls back to the classes are not fair and these little guys are no where ready to ride a 250 2t. if we fixed this transitional problem with the youth riders could you imagine the way of dirt bike sales? but then again i guess honda, and suz dont care because they gave up a ton of money by stopping there production of the 85. watch any 85 race an its a sea of blue out there.

[westsiderippa]

imo you would also see a decrease in the amount of youth riders being injured. forcing these kids to race a 250f straight off an 85 is just stupid.

and obviously im talking about the upper levels here, the loretta kids, the mini o kids etc... but these fast kids are the the furture and we need to grasp them and make a change where it will count.

[Stusmoke]

Dude... you're trying to tell me that getting on a 250F after an 85 is stupid? I went from an XR100R to a 250F then to my YZ250 and I had zero issues other than the bike being a piece of shit and constantly breaking down. NO injuries! The 250F should be the transition to a 125, not the other way around. They're easier to ride, and a good way for a smaller person to get comfortable on a full size bike without having to wring its neck to achieve power. Im not saying the 250Fs are good machines by any stretch of the imagination, if they revved alot lower they would be great. What im saying is, getting to know a track on a bike that can tract well, easier to ride nice and smooth power will by no means result in more injuries. Again if it was even remotely feasable the 250F motocross machine would be fine in my book, if people wanna take that path thats their problem. But for a younster to have to get comfortable on a full size bike, I can gaurantee you they're going to have a better time of it if they don't have to worry about clutching and all the other technical stuff (in comparison to the four stroke) that comes with riding a 125. Not to mention if they do have a major accident which they will be more likely to have on a 125 it might scare them off the bike. You've said it yourself, a kid will have great riding skill and experience coming off of a 85. I just think its a better idea to let them get used to the extra weight, height, power and handling of a full size bike on something thats less of a handful. Not to mention imagine the grin on their faces when they jumped on their 125 

I'd also add that my above points are based on the assumption that the transitioning kid has solid financial backing, if not, go straight to the 125

[Recovered]

stu, i think what people are getting at, is that you have to mod the ever loving piss out of the 250Fs to be competitive, and once you do that, you are not only completely broke, but the thing makes 43hp which is a bit too much for a 15 yr old that weighs 120lbs, not to mention the 227lb dry weight. 

on the other hand you have the 125 which is infinitely cheap, 199lbs, 35ish hp (all of which is concentrated in 2,000RPM window) which are other important reasons why it is a better stepping stone.

but I agree, a 250Fs performance is turd-esque regardless.  They are just so lackluster and lukewarm, really like an XR with good suspension.

[eprovenzano]

The last time I was at the track / riding area, I saw more and more smokers.  I even saw many, many older smokers (80's, to mid 90's) just out for a day in the woods...  why because it was inexpensive to rebuild the ol smoker, and just go out and have some grins.  I even saw a mid 70's trials bike.  The owner was having a ball, but the lack of any real suspension was beating him up pretty good...  but the smile on his face said it all...  priceless   

As I posted before, I know of a local racer who was looking for a 125 as a practice, somtimes race bike.  He said he needs better corner speed, and wants to "save" his bike for race day.  What better way to get into riding shape, re-learn proper riding/racing skills than training on a 125...  plus as he stated, the maint cost of basically zero.  Plus he said "I'd like to try the two stroke only races". 

[VintageBlueSmoke]

Not to gang up on you Stu, but the article is pretty good. First, they admit right off the bat to the 2$ being cheaper to rebuild but they also point out that in the class, no one wants to give up the advantage the 450 gives you. What they are saying is "So if you are going the 450F route, this is what you should know." That is pretty responsible coming from an industry magazine.

You also go on about the average motocrosser...let me tell you that if you were to go to Loretta's, you'd shit yourself at what "amateur" racing costs. The "average kid" on a Cobra's parent has over $10,000 invested in one little bike alone...and they have 2 or 3. Those kids usually race multiple classes, so add 2 or 3 bikes for each class. Often, there are more than 1 kid (siblings) so add the additional bikes for them. Then there are the tow rigs, sponsor ship swag, graphics, logos, mechanics,...dude, it is f'in crazy. The only thing missing were the "Monster Girls" and Jeff Emig spouting the "Awesome Horsepower of these fabulous 4-stroke engines!" and I bet they are all there now! To be competitive in the 125 Schoolboy Mod class, you got to have very deep pockets indeed.

Premixed and westsiderippa's comments about the 85 class are important point though. Yes, you (and I) may have done just fine coming off our XR's onto the big bikes but not everyone is so lucky (gifted?). So many kids are hurt needlessly because of this big performance gap. Imagine if it was your 15 year old who was just paralyzed or killed. Do you think you'd allow his 11 year old brother to continue to race? That is just not one customer lost, that is 10 customers lost because that parent will not be positively promoting the sport and influencing his friends and neighbors to buy dirt bikes and come out and race against his kids. Then there is the other negative reaction in the community. The "think of the children" knee jerk reactionaries come out of the woodwork and not even know the injured child or the circumstances of the accident but feel the need to speak out against these crazy dangerous motorcyclists!

I'm glad you are passionate about the sport and 2 strokes, but don't let that passion overwhelm the facts and real issues.

[Dirtbikeologist]

don't let that passion overwhelm the facts and real issues

Absolutely.  The real facts are that four strokes are completely entrenched in the industry and they are not going away.  We will continue to argue over which one is better (and have fun doing so) but the facts are that they are simply different.  A 125 and a 250F are different bikes with different personalities and different power delivery.  I own one of each - I prefer the 2T but some riders will always prefer the 4T, they are willing to pay more for it with open eyes, and that's OK for them.  But the 250F is significantly more expensive and difficult to maintain for the local rider/racer and people need to be aware of that.  The industry needs to do a better job of warning people of that.  Anyone looking for the lowest price barrier to enter the sport should look into a used 125, but a new rider researching options for entering the sport will not likely get to that conclusion.  Good thing for TSM educating the public, and good thing more and more 2Ts are appearing at the tracks and trails. 

Sure at the competition level of Loretta's everything is expensive.  So let's look at the facts of Loretta's, or the GNCC or any other other racing series that has taken away the unfair displacement advantage of four strokes and allow 250s and 250Fs to race against each other.  There the facts are clear that at that level of competition the only difference between 2T and 4T is rider preference.  It is not so much about making the four strokes go away - that will never happen - it is about making the AMA unfair displacement advantage go away.  The industry will eventually catch up again...

[eprovenzano]

It is not so much about making the four strokes go away - that will never happen - it is about making the AMA unfair displacement advantage go away.  The industry will eventually catch up again...

Well said....

[Super Trucker]

This subject is wore out, there,s been numerous threads on this. The hottest  selling 2-st in the midwest is a 125, guys just want to have fun riding. The 700 plus racers at the local tracks 96 to 01, will never happen in mx again. The cost of racing now is just too high, that,s why everyone just rides now. Everone is to busy now to sit all day at a race to get 4or5 lap motos in, a regular local race win, doesn,t mean much anymore since hardly anyone is there. The largest turnout in vet racing is the RacerX vet series in the midwest and that,s full of cherry pickers.

[Recovered]

Danny Chandler lived in a van as a 15-16 yr old amateur.  He couldnt read or write until he was about 20 years old.

Talent does not come from money all the time.  It is a shame to think of all the legends that will never materialize because of the ridiculous cost rise of the last 7-8 years.

[citabjockey]

The Heart of MX Movie, on Loretta's. I love the "budget" kid who is in the 450 class on a KX250.

[Stusmoke]

Theres an AWFUL lot of information posted that was either directed or related to my postings so I'll do my best to respond to all of it let me know if I ignored you.

stu, i think what people are getting at, is that you have to mod the ever loving piss out of the 250Fs to be competitive, and once you do that, you are not only completely broke, but the thing makes 43hp which is a bit too much for a 15 yr old that weighs 120lbs, not to mention the 227lb dry weight. 

on the other hand you have the 125 which is infinitely cheap, 199lbs, 35ish hp (all of which is concentrated in 2,000RPM window) which are other important reasons why it is a better stepping stone.

but I agree, a 250Fs performance is turd-esque regardless.  They are just so lackluster and lukewarm, really like an XR with good suspension.

I realise that the 125 class (yes eat shit AMA i'll call it what its really called) is extremely competitive in terms of the maximum legal horsepower you can squeeze out of your engine, from what i've read even more so than the 250s. I'm not trying to say spend the first couple of seasons on a 250F if you're coming off an 85, god no, I'm saying ride it for maybe see if you can borrow your dad or mates 250F for a WEEKEND to get used to the fact that you DO have extra kilos under you, you have a shit ton more power under you and its gonna take some getting used to. The power is THERE, doesn't mean you have to use it. Preload the shit out of it, get it down to a decent height for the kid for the weekend. The power is there, its up to the rider to use it so whether it makes 43 horsepower or 4.3 is irrelevant, its should be used to gently ease into the bigger size without having to worry about clutching to stay on the pipe. Although having said that for a kid coming off an 85 it probably wouldn't make that much difference. But a hard hitting and narrow powerband for a kid thats riding their first full size bike has GOT to be more dangerous than a kid on a lazy fag machine. It doesn't need to be a competitive machine for just getting used to it.

Not to gang up on you Stu, but the article is pretty good. First, they admit right off the bat to the 2$ being cheaper to rebuild but they also point out that in the class, no one wants to give up the advantage the 450 gives you. What they are saying is "So if you are going the 450F route, this is what you should know." That is pretty responsible coming from an industry magazine.

You also go on about the average motocrosser...let me tell you that if you were to go to Loretta's, you'd shit yourself at what "amateur" racing costs. The "average kid" on a Cobra's parent has over $10,000 invested in one little bike alone...and they have 2 or 3. Those kids usually race multiple classes, so add 2 or 3 bikes for each class. Often, there are more than 1 kid (siblings) so add the additional bikes for them. Then there are the tow rigs, sponsor ship swag, graphics, logos, mechanics,...dude, it is f'in crazy. The only thing missing were the "Monster Girls" and Jeff Emig spouting the "Awesome Horsepower of these fabulous 4-stroke engines!" and I bet they are all there now! To be competitive in the 125 Schoolboy Mod class, you got to have very deep pockets indeed.

Premixed and westsiderippa's comments about the 85 class are important point though. Yes, you (and I) may have done just fine coming off our XR's onto the big bikes but not everyone is so lucky (gifted?). So many kids are hurt needlessly because of this big performance gap. Imagine if it was your 15 year old who was just paralyzed or killed. Do you think you'd allow his 11 year old brother to continue to race? That is just not one customer lost, that is 10 customers lost because that parent will not be positively promoting the sport and influencing his friends and neighbors to buy dirt bikes and come out and race against his kids. Then there is the other negative reaction in the community. The "think of the children" knee jerk reactionaries come out of the woodwork and not even know the injured child or the circumstances of the accident but feel the need to speak out against these crazy dangerous motorcyclists!

I'm glad you are passionate about the sport and 2 strokes, but don't let that passion overwhelm the facts and real issues.

What you've described there is by no means what I would consider an average racer. Thats basically professional without the nametag and speed.

Who cares about the twats that wanna protect people from their own freewill? No one is making these kids race they race because they want to. Injuries are not because of the performance gap. I've narrowed dirt bike injuries down to 4 reasons: People being stupid on the bike, People trying something or riding above their skill level, not wearing proper protective gear and just random, freak, pure bad luck that resulted in a crash or just making a simple mistake. That pretty much covers any scenario in my opinion (please leave yours). If you just put a kid on a full size bike and say go race it of course they're going to hurt themselves.

don't let that passion overwhelm the facts and real issues

Absolutely.  The real facts are that four strokes are completely entrenched in the industry and they are not going away.  We will continue to argue over which one is better (and have fun doing so) but the facts are that they are simply different.  A 125 and a 250F are different bikes with different personalities and different power delivery.  I own one of each - I prefer the 2T but some riders will always prefer the 4T, they are willing to pay more for it with open eyes, and that's OK for them.  But the 250F is significantly more expensive and difficult to maintain for the local rider/racer and people need to be aware of that.  The industry needs to do a better job of warning people of that.  Anyone looking for the lowest price barrier to enter the sport should look into a used 125, but a new rider researching options for entering the sport will not likely get to that conclusion.  Good thing for TSM educating the public, and good thing more and more 2Ts are appearing at the tracks and trails. 

Sure at the competition level of Loretta's everything is expensive.  So let's look at the facts of Loretta's, or the GNCC or any other other racing series that has taken away the unfair displacement advantage of four strokes and allow 250s and 250Fs to race against each other.  There the facts are clear that at that level of competition the only difference between 2T and 4T is rider preference.  It is not so much about making the four strokes go away - that will never happen - it is about making the AMA unfair displacement advantage go away.  The industry will eventually catch up again...

I agree with most things you've said, and I don't want 4 strokes to go away. Seriously if people are sweet with dumping that much money into a bike thats their issue and I think that LOW REVVING bikes would be great for introducing a kid to the demands of a motocross track. Allowing 250s to compete against 250Fs is doing exactly to four stroke lovers what they did to us and that doesn't fly with me. We are all crying out for better displacement rules, but I think drop the maximum four stroke displacement for the 125 class down to 200 maximum. That evens out the horsepower numbers but still allows people who just like four strokes to be competitive. Not to mention people get to carry on with the traditional 125 displacement.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

Not to be argumentative but...

...hard hitting and narrow powerband for a kid thats riding their first full size bike has GOT to be more dangerous than...

Actually no. Nothing to so narrow in power (except a weed eater!) than an 85. A 125 is very similar except it is taller and has more of everything. The 250F is not just heavier, but heavier up high. That makes it hard on growing bodies to hold up - especially off-road where most dirt bikers actually ride (since MX has gotten so competitive and expensive). You can't just expect anyone, especially a kid to have the common sense to ease into a larger bike. That learning curve is too steep and they may not know they are in over their head until they actually are. If everyone did, we all might as well ride 250's.

I also beg to differ about the cost of racing. Family racing is few and far between. Most "family" tracks are run by assholes who have run all the fast guys off. And when I say, assholes, I mean that in an endearing way. You  don't like the guy, but he is running a good system. If you find one of those, you should support him. Because the cost of holding races has gone up so much (insurance, track design and maintenance, cost of land, noise abatement, etc) most tracks are joining larger series to recoup the money. Join a series, and faster guys will come, faster guys mean, higher costs. The GNCC's are not the exception to the rule. Every series is adopting the "professionalism" that the Combs family have textbooked.

Guys making $36k (US) a year and racing bikes are long over.