Coming Soon
Home > Forum


Author Topic: Riding 4 stroke in woods  (Read 7680 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ridered125

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Riding 4 stroke in woods
« on: November 30, 2009, 07:05:10 PM »
I mainly ride trails, enduros and hare scrambles. Not much on MX. But I love this site. The guy who has created this has some good instincts. It's been neat watching this site grow.

Saturday I was riding with a friend who has a WR 250. It's a well-maintained 2007 and a nice bike. We were pounding out some trail miles and took a break. He was checking out my bike - a 2003 KTM 200. We decided to switch bikes for a few miles and he took off in front. I've ridden, but not owned, some four strokes so I sort of knew what to expect. I can't ride the four strokes well. I was pulling and tugging on the machine and trying to bunny hop it over stuff. It was content to head down its path and when it did react to my input it reacted too late. I was getting tired and was truly fighting the motorcycle. I noticed by buddy, who rides about the pace I do, was pulling away.

The harder I tried to keep up and make the WR go faster, the slower I went.

After a few miles we switched back and I was glad to be back on the 2-honey. I know the WR is a good bike and I've been passed by them many times during races, but I haven't been able to figure out how to ride one without feeling like I was just in a wrestling match.

In the woods, a two-stroke, when set up, right is magical.

Offline Hondacrrider

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 09:10:12 PM »
totally agree, hey, how does the weight of your bike compare to let's say, a 125
I'd rather be riding...

Offline eprovenzano

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 617
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 05:53:56 AM »
You are absolutely correct....  A friend of mine's son is a great rider, he's pretty good at MX, but in the woods he shines.  Of course he wanted to drink the Kool-Aid like all of his friends who were on strokers.  At the time he was one a 125, and was mid pack on the MX track against his buddies.  In the woods, he was the master of slipping the clutch to where not many could keep up with him.  He was always complaining that he was at a disadvantage because he was on a smoker.

Fast forward a few years, its time for a bike upgrade, and of course he wants a stroker.  One of his friends who is tired of spending big bucks to keep the stroker intact, decides to get a KTM 250 sx.  He goes from mid pack to the front.  He too was trying to ride the stroker like a smoker.  So now my buddies son sees the light, and gets a YZ250.  Now he's in front of the pack of his friends, and in the woods...  well lets just say, learning how to ride a 125 the right way, slipping the clutch and keeping it in the meat of the RPM's has really paid off, he flies through the woods.

His only complaint now is he needs a 450 to compete against the big bikes....  Some people are never happy....
Eric Provenzano
2019 KTM 300 XCW TPI
2000 KTM 300 EXC (Son's)
2001 KTM 380 EXC
Sold 1991 KDX 200... fun play bike
Sold 1999 KX250
Sold 1999 YZ125 (son's)
Sold 2001 Yamaha TTL 125 (son's 1st bike)
Sold but never forgotten 1974 Honda Elsinore CR250M
Sold 1974 Honda Elsinore CR125

Offline ridered125

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 10:38:17 AM »
The 200s weigh more than a 125 and it's noticeable. I rode a 125X in the woods once and it was great on an open, flowing trail and the sound it made was really neat. It felt like riding a bicycle. But when the trail got nasty and tight, the 125 wasn't as nice as the the 200. The 200, when it is jetted right and running crisp, really will carve up a trail.

Offline Hondacrrider

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 433
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 09:15:35 PM »
what is the power compared to a 125?
I'd rather be riding...

Offline JohnN

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 1583
  • Two Strokes Rule!
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2009, 07:13:19 AM »
The low end of the 200 is much stronger than a 125. The power delivery is also quite a bit "smoother" and linear than a 125. They are fun bikes to ride.

If you are interested in one you should see if you can get a test rie on one to see what you think.
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline ridered125

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2009, 01:33:17 PM »
The KTM's have an adjustable powervalve that can turn the 200 into a tractor. I've set the powervalve to make the motor less pipey and added a flywheel weight and a carb needle that also aims to make the motor smoother.

Without these mods, the bike was would wheelie and spin the back wheel unexpectedly, not good when on a tight trail.

Offline westyzkx

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 28
  • Two Stroke Militia
    • View Profile
    • Toyboy Connection
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2009, 05:36:52 AM »
I've got a KTM 250 SX yr 2004 and I dont think the adjustable powervalve is that good. If you put the red spring in (loosest) then it opens the power valve quickly so when you hit the powervalve rev range it give more of an instant 'hit' where as if you put the tighter spring in then it means when you hit the powervalve rev range it takes longer for the valve to open and therefore there is less of a 'hit' - I tried doing that as an experiment and it was sooo boring like riding a 4 stroke there was no powerband hit at all - just one linear curve all the way through the revs. The thing is also it's a miss conception that the tighter spring gives you more power low down, it just alters the way the power valve comes in during the higher revs -

I've decided to sell my SX250 yr 2004 cos I also have a KX250 yr 2000 and it is has a much more intense power spread. The KTM seems to have been stock tuned to have a little more power low down at the expense over hit up top. Like 30% on the bottom and 70% up top, my KX250 has 20% down low and 80% up top - the eKX is tuned for maximum impact and it makes my laugh my head off when I ride it cos its sooo much fun. I dont see the point in watering down the top end power for a little more bottom cos its taking the fun out of the powerband / weakening it, its a crap compromise. Yeah the KTM is ok - its a laugh and it still pretty fast when you have the red spring in but it doesnt make me screem like my KX..

  
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 05:44:15 AM by westyzkx »
www.toyboyconnection.com - online dating for younger men and older women

Offline jft67x

  • Novice
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 12:34:53 AM »
a thumper is like riding a harley through the woods

Offline JETZcorp

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 1696
  • Life, Liberty, and Horsepower
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 02:14:35 PM »
Well you know, back in the day....

Cry Baby! (HD)


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline JohnN

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 1583
  • Two Strokes Rule!
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 08:11:51 PM »
JETZcorp, you certainly like the old machines don't you?

You're our vintage two stroke promoter!!

Yes the riders of old were as tough as nails.. they rode machine with little or no suspension travel, but the speeds that they raced on the dirt were lower than today.

Some of the advancements are good. Some years back I built a vintage machine and raced it, sure it was fun and enjoyable, but I enjoy the newer machines. In no way would I discount the old bikes, it's just that I prefer the latest stuff.

I'm really looking forward to riding/racing my new 2010 TM 125MX!!  8)

Oh yeah... nice video!
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline JETZcorp

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 1696
  • Life, Liberty, and Horsepower
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 01:58:59 AM »
I think they were actually faster back then.  Think about long, sweeping natural-terrain tracks dotted with CR480s and and YZ465s and RM400s and such.  Even before then, those guys who ran with 5" of travel in the back (if they were lucky enough to ride Maico, did you know that AHRMA make you restrict your shocks if you enter a '74 Maico, to keep things "fair") went fast as hell.  They just stood on the pegs and let the bike buck like they do, then keep going.  Here's another "back in the day" video from warmup day of the '74 USGP at Carlsbad (RIP).  This video brings back a lot of memories, which is interesting because it was shot 17 years before I was born.  I guess I read too many old issues of DB and MXA.

Carlsbad Grand Prix of Motocross, 1974, Part1


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?

Offline JohnN

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 1583
  • Two Strokes Rule!
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 05:53:53 AM »
JETZcorp - Man you are a young guy!! Not that it's a bad thing but.. I have fillings that are older than you! LOL

The first race I attended was in 1970 at a track called Fishkill. It was a scrambles (the stuff before motocross) and it was the tie when there were both two strokes and four strokes competing. At the time it was the fastest I'd ever seen anything go in my life!

The first race I competed in was in 1975 on a Honda CR125 and I promptly finished dead last! I had no idea what the hell I was doing. Although I did get better years later....  ;D

My first professional race was in 1976 at Unadilla. To say it was amazing would be an understatement. At first glance I was unable to see the track!! When the track was opened for practice I found out why. The grass was almst three feet deep around the entire track!! The grass was mixed into the dirt and turned the dirt into the most amazing loam I had ever seen.

The other surprise was that under that grass the track still had all the bumps, ruts and whoops from the races before. If the used a machine any where on the track I would be surprised.

This was the first time that I got to see all my heroes race. Roger DeCoster, Jim Pomeroy, Brad Lackey, Marty Smith, Bob Hannah and so many others. It was the best day ever!

As a strange side story, before practice there was a guy on a Maico doing the most amazing slow wheelies. I found out later that the guys name was Doug DeMokous (sp?) and he raced the support class that day.

As you can see I've been around for a little while.

In 2009 I attended the Unadilla Pro National. The bikes are so much better in so many ways than back then. The speeds are higher, although they changed the track significantly to make it flow differently which means there were no slow speed sections like back in the 70's. And they groomed the track smooth! It was almost ready to be paved... but I digress..

The new bikes and riders go much faster. But there are a few caveats. The length of the races now are 30 minutes plus two laps, back then it was 40 minutes plus two laps. Those extra 10 minutes really made a difference, because a great deal of passing occured by the top riders in those last 10 minutes. It truly separated the men from the boys.

In no way was it a sprint race like today. You could see that the racers had heart. They battled their bikes, the tracks and their competitors. When someone passed someone, usually the racer they passed did not give up and let them go. They raced with them and passed them back.

The point of all this? While the past was amazing and the racers were tough, attempting to compare the racers from the past to the racers of today would be difficult if not impossible. Although the depth of really good riders today is no where near what it was back then.

The bikes are better, I know that for a fact. Having been there, ridden so many bikes, attending and competing in many years of racing and from bein a real fan of the sport.

The old days were fun, but time changes and you move forward. Some things change for the better and some change for the worse. I'd much rather ride/race a new bike than an old one, no matter how good the old ones were.

For those that are interested I found this video. It's from a race at Unadilla, the guy that posted it thinks that it's from 1975 but from looking at it I would say that it's from 1977 or possibly 1978.If you watch closely you will notice that the track has remained similar, but there were much tighter sections. In which I believe made racing much more interesting.

Later in the video there are some local races, these are some of the tracks that I raced on when first starting out. There is no sound, because it was shot using a film camera and at that time having sound was very rare for the amateur.

This is the perfect example of the differences between "back in the day" and today. In the 1970's if you wanted to record moving pictures, you used 8mm or 16mm film. On the 8mm film cameras, the film cartridge was 50 feet long, good for approximately 3 minutes of footage. You had to send the film out to be processed.  :o

A week or two later you got it back. Then you had to set up a screen and projector to watch your master piece. If you wanted to edit it into a longer film you had to splice the actual film together onto a larger reel.

Today almost everyone has something to record video and sound. In fact it's in many cell phones!

I know which one I prefer!  8)

Sorry for the rant!!

Enjoy!

1970's Motocross - District 34
Life is short.

Smile while you still have teeth!

Offline AFG

  • Intermediate
  • ***
  • Posts: 77
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2009, 05:15:40 PM »
Those videos bring back memeories. I have been racing aloonnnggg time, since the 70's too.The bikes were much harder to ride back then. I also walked to school up hill 10 miles both way uphill in the snow here in south Texas(that's what I tell my kid's). We rode what we had and loved it! The suspension, power, reliability, brakes. Everything has improved. A friend and I were talking about the good old days, and the bikes. I was lamenting about how I missed all the bikes from way back. I still love the BaDang BaDang BaDang of a 400 Maico coasting down at the vintage races. He then proceded to remind me my KX500 is from the good old days(ie. antique). It makes the same noises, it just handles, and stops much better than all my 1970's stuff. These are the good old days!

Offline JETZcorp

  • Professional
  • *****
  • Posts: 1696
  • Life, Liberty, and Horsepower
    • View Profile
Re: Riding 4 stroke in woods
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 01:31:38 AM »
Well, I will admit that the new bikes are better for the new environment.  An aluminum-framed YZ450F will probably beat a 490 Maico almost everywhere you can find to race today.  I have yet to be convinced that it would do so if you shipped the YZF to Carlsbad circa 1982, where it was all about power and bumpiness, rather than hairpins and airtime.

But, going back to really old, pre-long-travel stuff, there's a different comparison to be made.  There are very few situations in which a 1973 bike is going to beat a 1980 bike or a 2010 bike.  But, I think the guy on the 1973 bike is going to have a lot more fun.  Between my two bikes, there is no question over which performs better.  One has at least three times more power, has three times the suspension travel and is more comfortable to ride.  But the other is more fun.  The most fun I've ever had on a motorcycle was on the 120, screaming up a trail that followed some power lines.  Even though I had to ride a lot slower than I wanted to because of the rear tire constantly banging into the fender, I look back on it as one of the greatest experiences of my life.  The old thing has so much personality it just seems to drip from every bolt and waft around in the exhaust.  It's a technical disaster compared with the newer Husky, but when it comes to take the bike out and ride, it's a masterpiece among masterpieces.


Is this Maico a 440 or only a 400?  Well in all the confusion, I forgot myself.
But considering this is a 1978 Magnum, the best-handling bike in the world, you have to ask yourself one question.
Do you feel lucky, punk?