4 $troke lovers= delusional people

[TotalNZ]

That's some good info Miedoso.   On the flip side of the coin, do you think any of the latest and greatest chassis or suspension tech that has hit the dealer floor in the last few years helped feed that thought (that thumpers hookup better), or has that tech kind of been plateauing?  

I'm honestly curious, not trolling.  I've been out of the latest bike tech for nearly 10 years.  Since thumpers hit the scene, really.

- and TS, I totally agree    I'd ride a thumper before an e-bike.

My 2009 TM300MX has the latest alloy frame with great geometry and 50mm forks and ohlins shock. I can turn it inside thumpers at will but it still doesn't hook up as good cause of the power delivery.

[miedosoracing]

That's some good info Miedoso.   On the flip side of the coin, do you think any of the latest and greatest chassis or suspension tech that has hit the dealer floor in the last few years helped feed that thought (that thumpers hookup better), or has that tech kind of been plateauing? 

I'm honestly curious, not trolling.  I've been out of the latest bike tech for nearly 10 years.  Since thumpers hit the scene, really.

- and TS, I totally agree    I'd ride a thumper before an e-bike.

Some things to think about. The 4 strokes have tracks specifically made for them.  If you would take a 1996 SX track and have 250 2 strokes and 450Farts on the same track, the 450F would have problems.  There are very few 180 turns anymore, mostly 90 degree.  I've noticed a big difference on local mx tracks as well. The ruts build outside, and very few inside lines.  As you see in the amateurs, the number of 2 strokes increase per race, you will see more passing going on.  The 2 strokes will cut inside of the 4 strokes, but the 4 strokes will gain in other places on the tracks. Like I've said, wait some years, and things will look different. 4 strokes took from 1998ish to almost 2005ish to be in charge. That's a lot of years.  I'd ride a electric bike tomorrow.  Back yard tracks. Electric will be a substitute bike, not a conversion like the 4 strokes that were forced on us.

[JohnN]

Hmmm... 11 pages so far about something that was created with the stroke of a pen.

The real issue is that through marketing the average joe believes that it's fair for a four-stroke to be larger than a two-stroke. While at the same time claiming they are better. Not sure how that adds up, but it's what's causing the rift even between fellow two-strokers.

Here's something that will cause a bit of trouble. I love four-strokes!

There is a place for them. While at the races I watched some of the older vet guys and their four-strokes will probably last for 10 years or more.

The problem is that the rule change created years ago has confused old timers and bamboozled younger racers who grew up after the four stroke "revolution" began.

Yes the speeds of the races is higher. This is due to the "straightening" of the tracks. There are very few "difficult" sections or tight corners, everything is sweeping and banked. Sort of like NASCAR.

In a conversation with Rich Winkler (the guy that builds the AMA Supercross tracks) the indoor tracks have been modified in a huge way to accommodate the four-strokes.

Keep in mind one important factor when discussing the difference between the two-strokes and four-strokes, there is no fair comparison. Why? It's all a marketing driven.

All pro racing is designed to sell bikes. Plain and simple. Currently the bikes the manufacturers are trying to sell are four-strokes. The good news for us two-stroke fans, is that it's backfiring like a rusty old Model T. The warehouses are full of four-strokes the manufacturers can't give away.

The future will be different.... get out your crystal ball to see what it's going to look like!

[snook620]

My 2009 TM300MX has the latest alloy frame with great geometry and 50mm forks and ohlins shock. I can turn it inside thumpers at will but it still doesn't hook up as good cause of the power delivery.

2 strokes just dont have the traction like the 4. Traction will always be the 2 strokes achillies heel.

I totally disagree with people, when they say that. It is the way we set the bikes up, inwhich they don't get traction.  I have modded 2 strokes at the same cc's as 4 strokes, and they ran exactly like the 4 stroke.  No wheel spin, and no powerband.  Unfortunately, in MX, everyone has this thing in their head saying max power.

Im not even touching that one lol. And in MX the thing in everyones head is traction

[TotalNZ]

My 2009 TM300MX has the latest alloy frame with great geometry and 50mm forks and ohlins shock. I can turn it inside thumpers at will but it still doesn't hook up as good cause of the power delivery.

2 strokes just dont have the traction like the 4. Traction will always be the 2 strokes achillies heel.

I totally disagree with people, when they say that. It is the way we set the bikes up, inwhich they don't get traction.  I have modded 2 strokes at the same cc's as 4 strokes, and they ran exactly like the 4 stroke.  No wheel spin, and no powerband.  Unfortunately, in MX, everyone has this thing in their head saying max power.

Im not even touching that one lol. And in MX the thing in everyones head is traction

Yep this is my point, and why i think 9 times out of ten a new gen 4stroke is faster round a MX track.
Although in saying that an AF 500 would hook up sick, just a shame there aren't many round.

[miedosoracing]

Im not even touching that one lol. And in MX the thing in everyones head is traction

You don't have a clue. That's exactly what the people sending their motors to me and to Pro Circuit say, don't worry about peak power, just make me more traction.  I don't see too many runnning heavy fly wheel weights on their mx bikes, now do you?  If it was all about traction, then they would all have a flywheel weight on their 250 2 stroke.  Everyone wants more power, from bottom to top. That's what they want. Not one has said, I want more traction. LMFAO

TotalNZ, do you run the smoothest power switch always, and flywheel weight on your 300?  If not, why? I can detune it to run like a 300cc 4 stroke if you want. If not, tell us why you wouldn't want it to run like a 4 stroke 300cc. Thanks in advance for your insight.

[TotalNZ]

Im not even touching that one lol. And in MX the thing in everyones head is traction

You don't have a clue. That's exactly what the people sending their motors to me and to Pro Circuit say, don't worry about peak power, just make me more traction.  I don't see too many runnning heavy fly wheel weights on their mx bikes, now do you?  If it was all about traction, then they would all have a flywheel weight on their 250 2 stroke.  Everyone wants more power, from bottom to top. That's what they want. Not one has said, I want more traction. LMFAO

TotalNZ, do you run the smoothest power switch always, and flywheel weight on your 300?  If not, why? I can detune it to run like a 300cc 4 stroke if you want. If not, tell us why you wouldn't want it to run like a 4 stroke 300cc. Thanks in advance for your insight.

Na i'd hate it to run like a 4banger, the things that i love about my 2T are exactly the things that make it harder to turn consistent fast laps, ie snappy brutal power delivery = fun but doesn't = fast lap times.
I love the challenge and excitement of riding a 2t. I love throwing roost and doing wheelys, hooking up and launching smoothly from corner to corner with an ultra flat powercurve doesn't interest me. Although thats the way to fast laps and winning races, it's BORING.
I also love the light weight and no engine braking.
I'll still maintain though that with the standard of new gen 4's what it is they're the fastest way round the MX track for most people.
I gave a young 250f rider a blast on my CR awhile back and his reaction was, i love the power that things fast as but there's no way i could ride it as hard all day as i can my250F.

[snook620]

You don't have a clue. That's exactly what the people sending their motors to me and to Pro Circuit say, don't worry about peak power, just make me more traction.  I don't see too many runnning heavy fly wheel weights on their mx bikes, now do you?  If it was all about traction, then they would all have a flywheel weight on their 250 2 stroke.  Everyone wants more power, from bottom to top. That's what they want. Not one has said, I want more traction. LMFAO

Seriously man, do you have a medical marijuana card? Im saying it here and now...I wont respond to another post from you.

[yo_marc]

FWIW, I'm running 12 oz's and have my powervalve spring set about 10% tighter than stock.  But I'm a woods guy 

[yo_marc]

I would think what most people want for MX, is a motor that hits hard, but a chassis and suspension that make it hook up.  I dont think the average person would think of asking for a motor to be smooth, for fear of giving up HP to the next guy...

In the woods the point of having a smooth powerband is more apparent; the focus is smoothness and suspension.  A stock 250cc mx bike is already too much power for most situations.

[VintageBlueSmoke]

Tracks: In addition to rounding the corners  - although much of the newest suspension redesigns have been focused on getting them to turn sharper, they have moved the jumps to favor the 4$. Try to find video or track layouts pre-4$ era. You'll note that there is usually a jump right after a corner and before the corner is a little run in after the last jump (braking zone). Now look at a modern track and you'll note the jumps are reversed. The jump is right before the corner and a run up after the corner. This hurts the 2T because he has to short the jump into the turn to get time to stop while exiting the turn he will accelerate and shift and be going too fast to properly time the jump.

Electric: I would ride one in a heartbeat. Imagine roosting the hippies in your local park, or going for a ride on the neighborhood bike and horse trails. Now that the price is coming down, it could be a reality! We're talking the equivalent of a 168 lb 125! How could it not be a blast! Anyone up for a midnight run around the golf course?

Traction: The easy answer to getting 4$ traction is the flywheel weight. You can make it seem like an electric bike with enough flywheel. The problem is, no one wants that, they want as much hit as they can possibly handle - at least more than the guy next to or behind them.

Miedosoracing: He's correct. He's (often) not very nice about it, but he's right.

John: Long time, no see!

[miedosoracing]

Na i'd hate it to run like a 4banger, the things that i love about my 2T are exactly the things that make it harder to turn consistent fast laps, ie snappy brutal power delivery = fun but doesn't = fast lap times.
I love the challenge and excitement of riding a 2t. I love throwing roost and doing wheelys, hooking up and launching smoothly from corner to corner with an ultra flat powercurve doesn't interest me. Although thats the way to fast laps and winning races, it's BORING.
I also love the light weight and no engine braking.
I'll still maintain though that with the standard of new gen 4's what it is they're the fastest way round the MX track for most people.
I gave a young 250f rider a blast on my CR awhile back and his reaction was, i love the power that things fast as but there's no way i could ride it as hard all day as i can my250F.

\
Thanks man.

Vintage, you hurt my feelings.    Not really, I'm harsh.  LOL.  But I would rather get to the point. It's taken pages to get the truth out of some, and the truth gets shaded throughout those pages.  One thing you will never see me do, is start with name calling or going personal, like most others.  I just tell it like it is.  I try to use facts to prove something. Go through some profiles and look at what I speak of. Like saying I'm on a medical M card.  Idiot was a post by someone recently.

[miedosoracing]

By the way TotalNZ, the CR500AF doesn't hook up, it digs trenches. LOL.  My friend who loves 450F's, came back and said, it doesn't feel too fast, after doing a holeshot. I said, go back and look at the trench you just dug.  I got pretty good on that thing.  I could corner really well, just getting in a rut and gasing it. 0 clutching.  I miss it, but really want a 2011 or 12 KTM 300XC.  I even have a head all done, ready for it, from MikeS on KTMtalk.

[rbigair40]

I know now that i dont know anything??? but will a 4s jump a bigger jump closer then a 2s ?? just say you rolled around the track and when you reached the jump face you gassed it which would jump the biggest jump?

[snook620]

I know now that i dont know anything??? but will a 4s jump a bigger jump closer then a 2s ?? just say you rolled around the track and when you reached the jump face you gassed it which would jump the biggest jump?

If were talking one of Meidoso's 2 stroke racing motors with a flywheel weight there is no comparision man. Are you crazy?

Flywheel weight = 4 stroke traction. Im glad Im on here to pick up these little tid bits.