4 $troke lovers= delusional people

[EJ]

From the 2005 season and onwards, the Outdoor Nationals have slightly lost their appeal to me.
I really enjoyed the 1998-2004 period, where 2 Strokes and 4 Strokes were batteling.
(Although it was under UNFAIR cc rules!!!)
Nowdays it's only 4 strokes, so I turn down the sound volume while watching cuz it's boring,
and the commentary is a REAL joke... Commentary was better and more enjoyable a few years ago.
I still blame the modern high revving 4 stroke concept (and the makers of the 4T brainwash hype,
and UNFAIR rules) for ruining a lot in MX / Offroad sport and hobby, in such a short time.

[ktm150rippa]

I really miss david bailey. I loved his commentary

[ACMX]

Snook, It's painfully obvious over the time you've been here, that you may like two strokes to some degree, but are definitely 4 stroke pro sided.

I understand. I probably just seem 4 stroke pro sided when were talking about racing, every time it comes up I dont make any friends =(. Per the current rules 4 strokes rule professional motocross. Like you said it isnt fair.

Ive grown up riding/racing 2 strokes same as you, they will always be special to me but it doesnt mean I believe they are the best design to ever hit the dirt. They are not. It may seem crazy to you but I like the 450s in the nationals. I like watching the higher pace, I think its great for racing. If you watch a race from the late 90's it looks like a local C class compared to the pace they are runnig now.

The higher pace is not a good thing. Hence they got ride of the 500 class. You saw what happened to reed. Doubt it would have happened on a 125. You always want to lessen the pace of a motocross track. Heightening the pace is dangerous.

[miedosoracing]

Snook, It's painfully obvious over the time you've been here, that you may like two strokes to some degree, but are definitely 4 stroke pro sided.

Ive grown up riding/racing 2 strokes same as you, they will always be special to me but it doesnt mean I believe they are the best design to ever hit the dirt. They are not. It may seem crazy to you but I like the 450s in the nationals. I like watching the higher pace, I think its great for racing. If you watch a race from the late 90's it looks like a local C class compared to the pace they are runnig now.

Snook, sorry to bust your theory. But it ain't the 4 strokes that make them any faster.  It is truely a faster group.  I raced in the late 90's to early 2000's ProAMA. My number was 725. I will say this for sure.  The group now, including the fastest of them, are faster than they were back then. The bikes are better, handling, suspension and power.  But put Chad Reed on a CR500AF detuned to smooth power, and he will be just the same place he was on the 450F.  These guys are riding differently everywhere. We did not scrub, we didn't do alot of things I see them do now.  The kids coming up are being trained at an early age. So there are more RC's and Bubbas than there were back then too.  But let us ask this question too you.  If you think the 450F's are so fast, then why is it, the 250F's are only 2 seconds a lap slower? If not faster on some tracks. Do you think a 250 2 stroke would compete in the 250 class, if rode by the top guys?

[snook620]

The higher pace is not a good thing. Hence they got ride of the 500 class. You saw what happened to reed. Doubt it would have happened on a 125. You always want to lessen the pace of a motocross track. Heightening the pace is dangerous.

I agree, from a riders prospective they are going to fast. Its still fun to watch right?

[ktm150rippa]

it is cool to see them really haul ass. But another thing I hate about it being 4 $troke only is ONE LINED TRACKS!!! other than hangtown budds and red bud it gets really one lined so basically most of the time one of the ryans or chad gets in first and no moves are made it's actually kinda boring. And the 250f class this year is just straight up nap time for me other than high point the procircuit domination has sucked!!!!!

[snook620]

Snook, sorry to bust your theory. But it ain't the 4 strokes that make them any faster.

Then....

The bikes are better, handling, suspension and power.

Kind of contradicting yourself. Sorry to bust your theory but it isnt just the riders.

I raced in the late 90's to early 2000's ProAMA. My number was 725. I will say this for sure.  The group now, including the fastest of them, are faster than they were back then.

I completely agree. So are the motorcycles....

Do you think a 250 2 stroke would compete in the 250 class, if rode by the top guys?

We talked about this earlier in the thread. Yes, I think under the right circumstances a 250 2t could win in the lites class. I think it would be a good match-up....one is faster while the other handles better. Like someone said above, it was pretty cool seeing them both racing on the same track. 2004-2005 natonals were pretty awesome

[miedosoracing]

"The bikes are better, handling, suspension and power.
Kind of contradicting yourself. Sorry to bust your theory but it isnt just the riders."

No, I'm not contradicting myself.  You said it was just the 4 strokes. Even 2 strokes, like the KTM 250SX is faster than it was back in the 90's. Try riding a 99 KTM 250SX, CR250, RM250, YZ250, KX250 compared to a 2012 250SX and get back to me, about how they are the same.  Bikes in general are better today then back in the late 90's. Fact.  
4 strokes is not the key. It's evolution of our sport.  Riders and bikes both.  Give every one of the 450F guys a 350cc 2 stroke, and they will be just as fast. So saying a 4 stroke is the reason is just delusional. Now, saying it's unfair rules, then maybe.  But I still stand behind my point about the riders are faster. I would not qualify for the night qualifiers today, even on my fastest day, on a 450.

[snook620]

You said it was just the 4 strokes.

Were did I say that? I didnt. Nor did I say a 450 could magically make anyone (like yourself) fast. I agreed it was the riders AND the motorcycles making the pace what it is today.

I think the difference between me and you is Im more of a race fan than a 2 stroke fan. Im not trying to down the 2 stroke but the origional post was about a PRO saying one motorcycle is better than another. Wrong or right, he's definetly faster and made more money than any of us here so IMO his opinon does not make him delusional.

[miedosoracing]

You said it was just the 4 strokes.

Were did I say that? I didnt. Nor did I say a 450 could magically make anyone (like yourself) fast. I agreed it was the riders AND the motorcycles making the pace what it is today.

I think the difference between me and you is Im more of a race fan than a 2 stroke fan. Im not trying to down the 2 stroke but the origional post was about a PRO saying one motorcycle is better than another. Wrong or right, he's definetly faster and made more money than any of us here so IMO his opinon does not make him delusional.

"there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now"


"Were talking about pro's at the nationals man. They use it all...every inch it has. So yes, being on a "pig" makes them faster. Those few guys making it on 2 strokes are at a clear disadvantage in that class, hats off to them for sure. Like you said yourself its a 200cc disadvantage, why even try? "

[snook620]

Forget about the pro's. You will just argue until you are blue in the face.

This. It may be the new rules, the big 4, the AMA, whatever........there is no place in professional racing for 2 strokes anymore. "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now

Were in this post did I say just the 4 strokes anywere. I said the rules give them an advantage.

Jeez my head hurts. Is anyone on here allowed to disagree with you?

[miedosoracing]

For the record, it wasn't about any Pro stating anything. It was a Pro's dad.  Someone who hasn't ever ridden a Pro Circuit KX250, and who's son, most likely has not either.  If they were to ride a KX250 Built by Mitch to compete in the 250cc class, he would see how delusional he is saying a 250F is not comparable to a 250 2 stroke.  

[snook620]

"Were talking about pro's at the nationals man. They use it all...every inch it has. So yes, being on a "pig" makes them faster. Those few guys making it on 2 strokes are at a clear disadvantage in that class, hats off to them for sure. Like you said yourself its a 200cc disadvantage, why even try? "

I think your trying to make a point here but Im just not getting it.

For the record, it wasn't about any Pro stating anything. It was a Pro's dad.  Someone who hasn't ever ridden a Pro Circuit KX250, and who's son, most likely has not either.  If they were to ride a KX250 Built by Mitch to compete in the 250cc class, he would see how delusional he is saying a 250F is not comparable to a 250 2 stroke. 

Ok man. Your absolutly right. Lets move on.....

[miedosoracing]

My point? That people like you say that 4 strokes are just so good. Second, that you said in one breath a 450 wouldn't make me as a Pro any faster, but then claim a 250 2 stroke held back the guys qualifying this year. But is it really about the 4 stroke, or is it truely about the cc's?  Because I get the vibe as others here, that to you, it's about the 4 stroke being that good, via your "Modern" 4 strokes are just to good now" type statements over and over.  It's not about that, it's clearly about the cc's.  So is it really about how good the modern 4 strokes are?  I personally don't care about the pro side of things. The amateur side is moving back to 2 strokes pretty fast.  AMA districts are much much more fluid with 2 strokes than the last 4 years or so.  The practice tracks have many more here in the Texas area as well.  I don't race anymore, so can't tell you about those races locally. I do know the rules are now fair though here.

[TMKIWI]

Chill out miedosoracing. You seem to like argueing with people. ( I visit Vital now and then )

What snook said and was repeated by Vintage. : UNDER THE CURRANT RULES A 4 STROKE IS BETTER. Under the Pro rules.

I dont think that is a inflammatory statement, Just a sad truth.

Every time this sort of discussion comes up people missunderstand which set of rules are being talked about.

Now hugs & kisses everyone.